Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[Bicycle tramp]

This is about as naive as it gets. Armstrong as the USADA Reasoned Decision clearly points out was the initiator, instigator, mastermind, comptroller, conducter and hub of the greatest sports fraud in history. The system (The UCI, the TDF and Cycling USA) only let him get away with it.

So you think the majority of the blame attaches to LA, when there's clearly corruption at the highest levels of the sport's administration? Now that's naive.

I'm no Lance apologist - I disliked him well before any doping allegations surfaced. But if everyone is as satisfied with his head as you appear to be, we'll be decrying another Lance all too soon.

 

[WinterRider]

A little humour

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5YrDkcbcvOQ#!

By far the funniest one of those that I've seen. Just proves it never hurts to hit that dead horse one more time.

 

[D-Queued]

So you think the majority of the blame attaches to LA, when there's clearly corruption at the highest levels of the sport's administration? Now that's naive.

I'm no Lance apologist - I disliked him well before any doping allegations surfaced. But if everyone is as satisfied with his head as you appear to be, we'll be decrying another Lance all too soon.

So, did Lance take advantage of corrupt officials?

Or, did they mastermind Lance?

Here is the key question: Who was on whose payroll?

Did the UCI pay Basso to light pedal all the way up the Alpe?

Dave.

 

[Pazuzu]

U.S. Representative Jim Sensebrenner backpedals: http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/no...nse-of-lance-armstrong-9q8ehki-187673051.html

 

[WinterRider]

People expected Lance to surrender to the truth on Oprah. He did no such thing. What he did would be considered more of a strategic retreat at best, a repositioning at worst.

A strategic retreat would have been to move to Hawaii and stay out of sight for two years.

This was his Waterloo. He put it all on the line and made himself look ten times worse. I can't imagine this improved his image in anyone's eyes, certainly not anyone in the press.

 

[WinterRider]

6. He unselfishly volunteers at local triathlons, crits, and running races for five years before even thinking about begging to ask to return to competition.

I think he could only volunteer at non-sanctioned events. So no crits, and probably no running races. Charity runs and triathlons are his only options.

 

[D-Queued]

U.S. Representative Jim Sensebrenner backpedals: http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/no...nse-of-lance-armstrong-9q8ehki-187673051.html

Flailing away in quicksand, is more like it:

First, Sensenbrenner wouldn't talk with the Journal Sentinel about the issue.

"Thank you for the nice request, but he is not available," said Amanda Infield, his press secretary.

Infield then focused on Sensenbrenner's bill to give athletes due process in dealing with USADA.

"This is not about Armstrong, or any specific athlete or case," she wrote in an email. "This is a question of fairness."

Hopefully his constituents deal him some fairness and get rid of him the next time around.

Dave.

 

[WinterRider]

The Conclusion:

1) Oprah got some rating and advertising dollars, heck she flew to Austin! That said it all to me. When has someone wanted to confess and lay out the rules?
2) Lance is mentioned in the general news for the next week.
3) Its business as usual at UCI central, forget the past, move on to the future.

Anyone expecting more should go call the tooth fairy for another hit.

I think this confession will grease the wheels in a few lawsuits personally.

 

[Pazuzu]

Flailing away in quicksand, is more like it:

First, Sensenbrenner wouldn't talk with the Journal Sentinel about the issue.

"Thank you for the nice request, but he is not available," said Amanda Infield, his press secretary.

Infield then focused on Sensenbrenner's bill to give athletes due process in dealing with USADA.

"This is not about Armstrong, or any specific athlete or case," she wrote in an email. "This is a question of fairness."

Hopefully his constituents deal him some fairness and get rid of him the next time around.

Dave.

Although his office did state that Sensenbrenner is glad a cheater has been caught: "Mr. Sensenbrenner is pleased that USADA reached the right outcome in catching an athlete that doped and cheated to win," Infield said.

At the very least, Sensenbrenner owes Travis Tygart and the USADA staff a public apology for the way he castigated their efforts. I'm not holding my breath.

 

[frenchfry]

U.S. Representative Jim Sensebrenner backpedals: http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/no...nse-of-lance-armstrong-9q8ehki-187673051.html

Interesting that he would sponsor a bill that basically proposed to confirm the existing process.

Sensenbrenner co-sponsored legislation that would require officials to give athletes accused of doping written charges, a reasonable time to prepare a defense and a fair hearing.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

U.S. Representative Jim Sensebrenner backpedals: http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/no...nse-of-lance-armstrong-9q8ehki-187673051.html

What a scumbag.

 

[Pazuzu]

Interesting that he would sponsor a bill that basically proposed to confirm the existing process.

Sensenbrenner co-sponsored legislation that would require officials to give athletes accused of doping written charges, a reasonable time to prepare a defense and a fair hearing.

I supposed he'd say that depends on what one's definition of a 'fair hearing' is. However, I dont' expect Sensenbrenner to elaborate. He's just hoping that this thing disappears without too many questions being asked.

 

[etymology]

So, did Lance take advantage of corrupt officials?

Or, did they mastermind Lance?

Here is the key question: Who was on whose payroll?


Dave.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323783704578246001221628488.html?mod=WSJ_article_outbrain&obref=obnetwork


apologies if this story has been posted before now.

"who was on whose payroll" is THE key question, particularly in regards to the two things i am most interested in being exposed: who made the decision to order the end of the u.s. federal investigation and who called in *that* favor?

 

[webvan]

So what's next ? I guess USADA and the UCI have "spoken", well mostly the USADA, the Feds ? If not it looks like all we'll be getting is a friggin' movie on Wonderturd for which he's going to be getting more cash..sickening.

 

[frenchfry]

Le Monde has published an article about the corticoide positive from the 1999 TDF. As a reminder, it was Le Monde that revealed the positive.

They go into detail about how the UCI actively participated in the cover-up, first by defending Armstrong's "innocence" and attacking the fact that Le Monde had obtained confidential information, and following that up by contactacting the French Sports Ministry to complain about Le Monde and also to object to the governments anti-doping measures.

http://www.lemonde.fr/sport/article...-armstrong-des-le-tour-1999_1820072_3242.html

The same tactics that were repeated for years.

Armstrong, Verdruggen, McQuaid - brothers in arms.

 

[webvan]

Interesting documents, too bad they didn't publish them at the time, they would have been in trouble certainly but Armstrong would have been suspended.

It probably wasn't a big conspiracy but I guess the UCI were in a hurry to avoid any new scandals after 1998...the rest is history!

 

[Fatclimber]

Actually, what USADA said and what has been reported since is different.

Here is the quote from the Reasoned Decision (which Oprah quoted correctly):
"The evidence shows beyond any doubt that the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team ran the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen."

That is entirely correct.

I thought Tygart was sensationalizing a bit there. What other doping programs is he comparing to? Does "that sport has ever seen" mean "that I have seen?"

How would you compare success across sports? Race winnings? Number of titles? Number of victories? Sponsorship dollars? USPS didn't win much more than the TDF those 7 years.

I would wager that there are a lot of teams/athletes that are doping whose successes overshadow armstrong's. Also, a more sophisticated and professionalized program would be less likely to get busted.

Wasn't Tiger Woods making trips to Canada for PED's? Weren't footballers on the list of clients for Fuentes? How likely is it that Barca was involved. And let's not get into American sports.

 

[Benotti69]

I thought Tygart was sensationalizing a bit there. What other doping programs is he comparing to? Does "that sport has ever seen" mean "that I have seen?"

How would you compare success across sports? Race winnings? Number of titles? Number of victories? Sponsorship dollars? USPS didn't win much more than the TDF those 7 years.

I would wager that there are a lot of teams/athletes that are doping whose successes overshadow armstrong's. Also, a more sophisticated and professionalized program would be less likely to get busted.

Wasn't Tiger Woods making trips to Canada for PED's? Weren't footballers on the list of clients for Fuentes? How likely is it that Barca was involved. And let's not get into American sports.

We are finding out that Rabobank had a team program. We know T Mobile had a team program. Festina had a team program.

Who can forget the Mapei program. We know Conconi ran 1 at Carrera.

 

[Bosco10]

I thought Tygart was sensationalizing a bit there. What other doping programs is he comparing to? Does "that sport has ever seen" mean "that I have seen?"

Maybe Tygart meant, "THAT sport [pro cycling] has ever seen".

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I thought Tygart was sensationalizing a bit there. What other doping programs is he comparing to? Does "that sport has ever seen" mean "that I have seen?"

How would you compare success across sports? Race winnings? Number of titles? Number of victories? Sponsorship dollars? USPS didn't win much more than the TDF those 7 years.

I would wager that there are a lot of teams/athletes that are doping whose successes overshadow armstrong's. Also, a more sophisticated and professionalized program would be less likely to get busted.

Wasn't Tiger Woods making trips to Canada for PED's? Weren't footballers on the list of clients for Fuentes? How likely is it that Barca was involved. And let's not get into American sports.

USADA were quite specific when they said "sophisticated, professionalized and successful".

sophisticated - Motoman, flying around to get blood transfusions.
professionalized - Lots of 'Doctors' hired for one purpose. Full logistics in many different countries.
successful. - 7 Tours that netted over $100 million.

Thats accurate.

 

[DirtyWorks]

This is about as naive as it gets. Armstrong as the USADA Reasoned Decision clearly points out was the initiator, instigator, mastermind, comptroller, conducter and hub of the greatest sports fraud in history. The system (The UCI, the TDF and Cycling USA) only let him get away with it.

The summary is correct, the conclusion is not. This is not a subtle difference that can be ignored.

USA Cycling (Thom Wiesel owns USAC and USPS)and Pat and Hein's cooperation were required to build the myth.

The UCI was and probably still is building myths to "grow the sport." Shifting the subject a little, contrast the way Contador's clen positive was handled vs. FuYu Li's. The UCI is picking winners and losers.

 

[ElChingon]

It is a good point.

But, so is saying that family is off limits.

In Kristin's case, however, no way. She aided and abetted.

And, Lance admitted that he sought out her counsel about doping on his return.

That suggests a lot of premeditation on Lance's part. Not that this would be a particular surprise. It also suggests collusion, even if her advice was negative. But, how do we know Lance is telling the truth? Her recent involvement removes statute of limitation concerns.

Seems like Kristin should be back on the stand. No spousal privilege for an ex-spouse.

In fact, we should review the Trek vs Lemond deposition/testimony along with Herman's baseless arguments and his conflict of interest.

Dave.

I like the way you're thinking on this one, he highlights she knew and advised him so she can't say "I knew nothing", he might have another speed bump for the bus or an ally to hide the dough.

 

[Fatclimber]

USADA were quite specific when they said "sophisticated, professionalized and successful".

sophisticated - Motoman, flying around to get blood transfusions.
professionalized - Lots of 'Doctors' hired for one purpose. Full logistics in many different countries.
successful. - 7 Tours that netted over $100 million.

Thats accurate.

My contention is that comparisons cannot be made when the details of other doping programs are not known. There has been more than $100 million made by many athletes including basketball players, boxers, tennis players, football players, golfers, etc. I don't think I'm going out on a limb to say there is doping involved in those sports.

To me Tygart was sensationalizing, like when he said lance's samples from '99 were "flaming positive.
"

I respect Tygart immensely. Just don't agree with everything he says.

 

[Fatclimber]

Maybe Tygart meant, "THAT sport [pro cycling] has ever seen".

If that's the case I'm off base. I'm trying to find video of him saying it but it didn't come across that way to me. Thanks though.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

My contention is that comparisons cannot be made when the details of other doping programs are not known. There has been more than $100 million made by many athletes including basketball players, boxers, tennis players, football players, golfers, etc. I don't think I'm going out on a limb to say there is doping involved in those sports.

To me Tygart was sensationalizing, like when he said lance's samples from '99 were "flaming hot."

I respect Tygart immensely. Just don't agree with everything he says.

Well, I prefer to compare things we do know, rather than speculate on things we don't.

And again you are basing things on one thing, the dollar amount - what the report stated was 3 criteria, and using that there is no other sports doping ring that beats it.