Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[Bat Man]

What Tygart meant by it being the most professionalized doping ring is that it was the best one they had uncovered. But it wouldn't look very different to many top teams of the era. It's just that those programs were not comprehensively exposed in the manner of USPS due to the federal investigation. What's happened to Armstrong's team is unique and unprecidented.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Well, I prefer to compare things we do know, rather than speculate on things we don't.

And again you are basing things on one thing, the dollar amount - what the report stated was 3 criteria, and using that there is no other sports doping ring that beats it.

How about the EPO use in professional soccer in the nineties by Italian teams? They won almost everything. There is even footage players of Parma on hotel rooms putting syringes in their veins.

Agree with fatclimber, sophisticated, yes, the most sophisticated ever? I beg to differ. But, for PR reasons I would call it that also that. The logistics of the USPS were maybe the best ever.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xaqudn_cannavaro-doping-il-video-shock-ai_sport#.UP2qpR2UJ20

Hey look, right in the vein!

USPS/Discovery were a disgrace to cycling but let's not overdo it.

 

[Jeremiah]

Most sophisticated ever because they took over the Media and Armstrong made himself untouchable.

Everyone knew the East Germans and Soviets were doping, but they had the largest organized doping ever.

LA's was the greatest fraud.

Armstrong had his own North Korea/Jonestown thing going on with his cultists.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

How about the EPO use in professional soccer in the nineties by Italian teams? They won almost everything. There is even footage players of Parma on hotel rooms putting syringes in their veins.

Agree with fatclimber, sophisticated, yes, the most sophisticated ever? I beg to differ. But, for PR reasons I would call it that also that. The logistics of the USPS were maybe the best ever.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xaqudn_cannavaro-doping-il-video-shock-ai_sport#.UP2qpR2UJ20

Hey look, right in the vein!

USPS/Discovery were a disgrace to cycling but let's not overdo it.

That was done by many teams in Cycling, nothing particularly special about that.

What Tygart meant by it being the most professionalized doping ring is that it was the best one they had uncovered. But it wouldn't look very different to many top teams of the era. It's just that those programs were not comprehensively exposed in the manner of USPS due to the federal investigation. What's happened to Armstrong's team is unique and unprecidented.

Which other team was paying off the UCI or buying machines for the labs?

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

How about the EPO use in professional soccer in the nineties by Italian teams? They won almost everything. There is even footage players of Parma on hotel rooms putting syringes in their veins.

Agree with fatclimber, sophisticated, yes, the most sophisticated ever? I beg to differ. But, for PR reasons I would call it that also that. The logistics of the USPS were maybe the best ever.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xaqudn_cannavaro-doping-il-video-shock-ai_sport#.UP2qpR2UJ20

Hey look, right in the vein!

USPS/Discovery were a disgrace to cycling but let's not overdo it.

yeah I'm sure epo/doping makes you a better footballer

messi was treaed with growth hormons, when younger. I have even heard people(idiots) claim he should never have been allowed to play football...

 

[Benotti69]

I like the way you're thinking on this one, he highlights she knew and advised him so she can't say "I knew nothing", he might have another speed bump for the bus or an ally to hide the dough.

I wonder was mentioning his ex wife a shot across her bows. He put it out there in the public so she cant come after him as he implicated her. It also might have been done to take the heat off him from his kids that their Mother knew and said nothing.

Who knows with the guy.

 

[TheEnoculator]

Question for the admin:

I started this thread, but now it's showing that three posts were ahead of me, and that this thread was started by "WinterRider". Could you please look into this? Thanks.

 

[Fatclimber]

Cheers Dr M and others, I think we're all on the same sheet of music wrt Tygart's basic message.

yeah I'm sure epo/doping makes you a better footballer

messi was treaed with growth hormons, when younger. I have even heard people(idiots) claim he should never have been allowed to play football...

This is an interesting topic to me. Years ago a coworker of mine discussed how a friend of his' child was basically a runt and was put on "hormone therapy" to accelerate/increase his growth potential. The claims are that it can increase height 1-3" more than what it would have been otherwise.

Is modifying one's physical stature with growth hormone illegal by sporting standards? Using growth hormones during puberty is permanent. I'm not so sure I would classify those people as idiots.

Sorry if this should be discussed elsewhere.

 

[WinterRider]

Question for the admin:

I started this thread, but now it's showing that three posts were ahead of me, and that this thread was started by "WinterRider". Could you please look into this? Thanks.

Another thread was merged into this one.

 

[DirtyWorks]

What Tygart meant by it being the most professionalized doping ring is that it was the best one they had uncovered. But it wouldn't look very different to many top teams of the era. It's just that those programs were not comprehensively exposed in the manner of USPS due to the federal investigation. What's happened to Armstrong's team is unique and unprecidented.

Regarding the bolded, that's not really true.

-Wouldn't look very different to many top teams? Proof please. I'm not saying it didn't happen. We believe it to be generally true. This is a backdoor version of "everyone did it so it's not cheating." Except it is cheating in the worst way.
The honest riders just walked away or went back to continental-level racing. The case of Edwig Van Hooydonk should be reviewed. A *DOMINANT* classics rider that won Elite races under the age of 23 that just walked away.

-The Federal investigation did not share evidence. As I recall, they can't USADA is not a Federal law enforcement agency, much less a branch related to the one that did the Federal investigation. Maybe I'm wrong about this. Correct me if I am.

 

[blackcat]

Me three. One slick dude Mr. Papp.

plus Race Radio. That makes four. Can his denials seem legit. They could be legit, but this is like the crying of wolf.

 

[TheEnoculator]

Another thread was merged into this one.

Which one was that?

 

[Carols]

Sheryl Crowe

Breaks her silence tomorrow on CBS Entertainment Tonight; 7PM EDT.

 

[Big Doopie]

yeah I'm sure epo/doping makes you a better footballer

messi was treaed with growth hormons, when younger. I have even heard people(idiots) claim he should never have been allowed to play football...

R u for real?

Footballers are endurance athletes who run constantly. Epo would be a fantastic help. As it is in tennis.

 

[D-Queued]

Breaks her silence tomorrow on CBS Entertainment Tonight; 7PM EDT.

Does hope ride again?

Or, will she be honest?

Why would she even say anything?

Dave.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Does hope ride again?

Or, will she be honest?

Why would she even say anything?

Dave.

Probably clearing her throat before she is required to sing in front of a different audience:

Lance Armstrong attempted to orchestrate part of his elaborate doping cover-up by asking an ex-teammate to lie — and it happened in front of his ex-fiancée Sheryl Crow, it can be revealed for the first time.

Link here.

 

[thehog]

Does hope ride again?

Or, will she be honest?

Why would she even say anything?

Dave.

More importantly McConaughey speaks;

"My first reaction was I was ****ed off," McConaughey told MTV about learning his pal is a doping liar. "I was mad. I then got kind of sad for him. First off, I had a part of me that took it kind of personally, which I think a lot of people have.

"For him, it was impersonal because he was living a lie. t was a whole unanimous facade he had to carry around."

At the Sundance Film Festival to promote Mud, McConaughey then tried to take a step back.

Would he have preferred if Armstrong confided in him years ago? Not really because then "I would have really had a reason to be ****ed off at him, going, 'You want me to walk around holding this?'" the actor said.

 

[Bicycle tramp]

So, did Lance take advantage of corrupt officials?

Or, did they mastermind Lance?

Here is the key question: Who was on whose payroll?

Did the UCI pay Basso to light pedal all the way up the Alpe?

Dave.

I think a more apposite line of questioning is: What difference if a) cycling administration had not been corrupt? b) LA had not been corrupt?

In my view, corrupt administration has played the larger part in creating cycling's current problems.

Principled administrators would've unearthed a corrupt Armstrong many years ago.

Absent a corrupt Armstrong, a corrupt administration would still have enabled bribery, preference and cheating; we'd just be discussing other names.

 

[BillytheKid]

Two takes on the Amrstrong admission;

Frankie Andreu:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...ig-step-after-spiraling-out-of-control_271850

Greg Lemond:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...ig-step-after-spiraling-out-of-control_271850

Andreu, intersetingly, sees this as a huge step dispite calling for more, but says Oprah is not the right place to name names. And obviously apologizing for the hospital room admission.

Lemond is still claiming Mr. Clean. That could be, but as I've aready noted, Fignon's own admission will forever cast some doubt, but certainly not proof, on the the riders of that era. Greg now claims that Lance's junk was better than Floyd's or Tyler's. Maybe he has the inside scoop. I don't now if he means USPS or post USPS?

Of course Frankie rode with Lance, even went to the hospital with him. Frankie, perhaps now, can help the process along and remove the center target of scapegoating of Armstrong as Dr. Evil. A big part of it, yes. Wrong, yes. Caught up in a big lie in a sport (world) full of them, but perhaps human after all. A bully, yes, but at least now admits to it as a "deeply flawed." That will never satisfy some, nor does it need to.

Cycling, as does Lance, needs to go much further. Anyway, I thought worth the read.

 

[Oldman]

I think a more apposite line of questioning is: What difference if a) cycling administration had not been corrupt? b) LA had not been corrupt?

In my view, corrupt administration has played the larger part in creating cycling's current problems.

Principled administrators would've unearthed a corrupt Armstrong many years ago.

Absent a corrupt Armstrong, a corrupt administration would still have enabled bribery, preference and cheating; we'd just be discussing other names.

You raise some good, rational points. I would like to add:
1.Lance started doping while an amateur with USAC coaching help
2.Some serious help during USPS turned opportunities to cheat into the modus operandi for a team, complete with direct UCI administrative bribes. This is a new threshold for the UCI who was accustomed to stealing small.
3.Ultimately the people that knew, told and brought the house of lies to light were riders. They are the most aware of what's happening and they were complicit to some extent as well.

Plenty of blame to go around for cheating going on but the systematic nature was unique. Without the money it wouldn't have happened and that's the next level of the story. Who stood to gain beyond Lance and who helped facilitate it?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Two takes on the Amrstrong admission;

Frankie Andreu:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...ig-step-after-spiraling-out-of-control_271850

Greg Lemond:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...ig-step-after-spiraling-out-of-control_271850

Andreu, intersetingly, sees this as a huge step dispite calling for more, but says Oprah is not the right place to name names. And obviously apologizing for the hospital room admission.

Lemond is still claiming Mr. Clean. That could be, but as I've aready noted, Fignon's own admission will forever cast some doubt, but certainly not proof, on the the riders of that era. Greg now claims that Lance's junk was better than Floyd's or Tyler's. Maybe he has the inside scoop. I don't now if he means USPS or post USPS?

Of course Frankie rode with Lance, even went to the hospital with him. Frankie, perhaps now, can help the process along and remove the center target of scapegoating of Armstrong as Dr. Evil. A big part of it, yes. Wrong, yes. Caught up in a big lie in a sport (world) full of them, but perhaps human after all. A bully, yes, but at least now admits to it as a "deeply flawed." That will never satisfy some, nor does it need to.

Cycling, as does Lance, needs to go much further. Anyway, I thought worth the read.

Hey Billy, this is 2013 and the Lance Post confession thread - the grasping at straws thread is over there >

 

[blackcat]

1.Lance started doping while an amateur with USAC coaching help

clinic's consensus is triathlon

 

[BillytheKid]

Hey Billy, this is 2013 and the Lance Post confession thread - the grasping at straws thread is over there >

You can go tell Frankie the same. Doc.

Your getting bent about it is the grasp. Dr. Evil is the whole game Doc and not just one guy. Money and fame have messed people up and will do so again.

It is well documented for about three thousand years now.

 

[blackcat]

I think a more apposite line of questioning is: What difference if a) cycling administration had not been corrupt? b) LA had not been corrupt?

In my view, corrupt administration has played the larger part in creating cycling's current problems.

Principled administrators would've unearthed a corrupt Armstrong many years ago.

Absent a corrupt Armstrong, a corrupt administration would still have enabled bribery, preference and cheating; we'd just be discussing other names.

had Armstrong captured a "clean authority" by getting them voted out and inserting Weisel and Gorski like US Cycling?

 

[Bicycle tramp]

2.Some serious help during USPS turned opportunities to cheat into the modus operandi for a team, complete with direct UCI administrative bribes. This is a new threshold for the UCI who was accustomed to stealing small.

I agree. The old UCI world of petty corruption and preference was almost genteel in comparrision with what was to come. It was totally unprepared for the Lance/Bruyneel/Wiesel juggernaut. Pat's startled rabbit expression is no affectation.

3.Ultimately the people that knew, told and brought the house of lies to light were riders. They are the most aware of what's happening and they were complicit to some extent as well.

Absolutely, and they should not be absolved. But poor governance was the primary enabler (we will always have crooks), and the whole edifice must be brought down if cycling is to be fixed.

Plenty of blame to go around for cheating going on but the systematic nature was unique. Without the money it wouldn't have happened and that's the next level of the story. Who stood to gain beyond Lance and who helped facilitate it?

Maybe it could be said that Lance was a super-responder in more ways than one.