Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[Dr. Maserati]

My hunch is it was resources and/or lack of small p political will. Alternatively Birotte did not want to damage his reputation in the event of a loss. He may also have concluded that USADA would have a better shot at bringing LA down because their process was not criminal, and had a much lower threshold for success. USADA did not have to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt before a jury.

In addition USADA would not have been able to pursue Armstrong pending a lenghty criminal process. That is, we may not be where we are today, if Birotte had not "bagged" the criminal case.

At the end of the day, Birotte may have been correct from a strictly practical point of view because USADA did exacly what Birotte thought they could, they brought Armstrong down. That triggered the Oprah "confession" and bought LA a truckload of litigation.

On the SOL issue, USADA's strategy that the doping scheme was a conspiracy could also have worked in the criminal case. If Birotte could prove a conspiracy he could get around the SOL. However having to invlove conspirators in a criminal case, as opposed to just going after LA would have stretched the DOJ's resources to the max.

Some posters are confused. Birotte is not a State Attorney, he is a federal prosecutor in charge of a DOJ office in Los Angeles and thus was statutorily entrusted with the power as part of his job, to proceed or not proceed with a case.

In addition there is still a criminal investigation against LA underway regarding witness tampering. This case is separate and apart from the criminal fraud case and is based on Hamilton's and others complaints of intimidation by LA.

Sorry to kill such a long thought out post - but if Birotte was really thinking that USADA would be a better option then why did he not furnish the evidence that he was legally obliged to do.

 

[Pazuzu]

My hunch is it was resources and/or lack of small p political will. Alternatively Birotte did not want to damage his reputation in the event of a loss. He may also have concluded that USADA would have a better shot at bringing LA down because their process was not criminal, and had a much lower threshold for success. USADA did not have to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt before a jury.

In addition USADA would not have been able to pursue Armstrong pending a lenghty criminal process. That is, we may not be where we are today, if Birotte had not "bagged" the criminal case.

At the end of the day, Birotte may have been correct from a strictly practical point of view because USADA did exacly what Birotte thought they could, they brought Armstrong down. That triggered the Oprah "confession" and bought LA a truckload of litigation.

On the SOL issue, USADA's strategy that the doping scheme was a conspiracy could also have worked in the criminal case. If Birotte could prove a conspiracy he could get around the SOL. However having to invlove conspirators in a criminal case, as opposed to just going after LA would have stretched the DOJ's resources to the max.

You could very well be right as to Birotte's reasons for haulting the Armstrong investigation. Nonetheless, the fact that Birotte (1) wouldn't share the findings of the federal investigation with USADA, (2) reportedly dropped the investigation with little or no consultation with the people working on the case while evidence was still being gathered, and (3) the alleged intervention of Bill Clinton, is all very peculiar, to say the least.

 

[Netserk]

EDIT: Oops, sorry, I just joined the troll echelon, didn't I?

Indeed. Cipo agrees with you.

 

[MarkvW]

Painting Birotte as a villain doesn't appear reasonable.

Seems to me it is much more likely that the decision was made only after consultation with DC. It is now likely that in addition to the Los Angeles criminal investigation that the DOJ was also working Floyd's qui tam case in DC and Floyd's San Diego fraud case.

It doesn't make sense to me that Birotte is going to want to act in isolation on his investigation--his decision would be run through DC. First, the case is high profile and is going to result in all sorts of publicity--DC would want to know. Second, the case involves multiple overlapping investigations with overlapping resources--DC would want to know. Third, the termination of the Armstrong investigation was publicly announced--this is VERY unusual, and DC would surely want to know about that.

Then there's the story about the poor disappointed investigators who didn't get an explanation from Birotte. Isn't it plausible that Birotte had no explanation to give because the decision came from above?

It makes no sense to me to paint Birotte as the villain in this. This decision had to have been DC-involved.

 

[Scott SoCal]

Painting Birotte as a villain doesn't appear reasonable.

Seems to me it is much more likely that the decision was made only after consultation with DC. It is now likely that in addition to the Los Angeles criminal investigation that the DOJ was also working Floyd's qui tam case in DC and Floyd's San Diego fraud case.

It doesn't make sense to me that Birotte is going to want to act in isolation on his investigation--his decision would be run through DC. First, the case is high profile and is going to result in all sorts of publicity--DC would want to know. Second, the case involves multiple overlapping investigations with overlapping resources--DC would want to know. Third, the termination of the Armstrong investigation was publicly announced--this is VERY unusual, and DC would surely want to know about that.

Then there's the story about the poor disappointed investigators who didn't get an explanation from Birotte. Isn't it plausible that Birotte had no explanation to give because the decision came from above?

It makes no sense to me to paint Birotte as the villain in this. This decision had to have been DC-involved.

And THAT explains why Birotte was punched right in the mouth a couple weeks back.

Q: -- to all thethings that you, in the end, decided you couldn't bring a case about, can you give us your thoughts on that case now and whether you might take another look at it?



Birotte: We made a decision on that case, I believe, a little over a year ago. Obviously we've been well-aware of the statements that have been made by Mr. Armstrong and other media reports. That has not changed my view at this time. Obviously, we'll consider, we'll continue to look at the situation, but that hasn't changed our view as I stand here today.

The revelation comes in stark contrast to statements made by the U.S. Attorney for Southern California, Andre Birotte, who addressed his own criminal inquiry of Armstrong for the first time publicly on Tuesday. Birotte's office spent nearly two years investigating Armstrong for crimes reportedly including drug distribution, fraud and conspiracy -- only to suddenly drop the case on the Friday before the Super Bowl last year.



Sources at the time said that agents had recommended an indictment and could not understand why the case was suddenly dropped.



Today, a high level source told ABC News, "Birotte does not speak for the federal government as a whole."

All comments made on the same day. Coincidence?

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Sorry to kill such a long thought out post - but if Birotte was really thinking that USADA would be a better option then why did he not furnish the evidence that he was legally obliged to do.

They were under no legal obligation to do so and USADA has it's own means of securing the evidence. Actually it made more sense for USADA to do its own due diligence.

Note the Reasoned Decision is based substanially on taped interviews conducted under oath and sworn affidavits based on those interviews. That evidence is just as salient as grand jury testimony!

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Painting Birotte as a villain doesn't appear reasonable.

Seems to me it is much more likely that the decision was made only after consultation with DC. It is now likely that in addition to the Los Angeles criminal investigation that the DOJ was also working Floyd's qui tam case in DC and Floyd's San Diego fraud case.

It doesn't make sense to me that Birotte is going to want to act in isolation on his investigation--his decision would be run through DC. First, the case is high profile and is going to result in all sorts of publicity--DC would want to know. Second, the case involves multiple overlapping investigations with overlapping resources--DC would want to know. Third, the termination of the Armstrong investigation was publicly announced--this is VERY unusual, and DC would surely want to know about that.

Then there's the story about the poor disappointed investigators who didn't get an explanation from Birotte. Isn't it plausible that Birotte had no explanation to give because the decision came from above?

It makes no sense to me to paint Birotte as the villain in this. This decision had to have been DC-involved.

You may be bang on. As a US Attorney Birotte gets paid the big bucks to make the big decisions regrdless of what his investigating attorneys think. But usually they have to take into account broader factors than such things as the evidence, the SOL, resources etc. If as Pazuzu says Bill Clinton leaned on the DOJ (Holder) that might explain it.

I suspect DC was involved in the decision. What I would like to know is what is it Clinton is suspected of doing and saying? There is no question of his influence at the highest levels of government. What was the nature of his relationship to Armstrong? Or was there some other player in the Armstrong camp he wanted to protect? Weisel?

I can see Clinton saying something like. "Leave the poor b@$(@rd alone. We don't need to send him to jail. After USADA does its thing Armstrong will be ruined and have litigation up the ying yang. And the effect on the Charity will be to kill it." Not saying he did but speculating he might have.

 

[MarkvW]

And THAT explains why Birotte was punched right in the mouth a couple weeks back.







All comments made on the same day. Coincidence?

Do you really think DC was out of the loop on an announced decision as big as the termination of a Lance Armstrong investigation?

 

[Scott SoCal]

Do you really think DC was out of the loop on an announced decision as big as the termination of a Lance Armstrong investigation?

Anything is possible considering the cast of characters. This entire thing is really starting to stink though. Hard to believe this is SOP for the DOJ.

Either way, don't be too surprised to see Birotte go bye-bye in the next several months.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Do you really think DC was out of the loop on an announced decision as big as the termination of a Lance Armstrong investigation?

Meh. Dc is full of lobbyists making all kinds of cases for people with some money. Wonderboy is just one of a legion.

Someone was a decider, maybe birrotte.
Cycling is not even college baseball. It is reasonable that no one cares, so birotte reads the signals and kills it.

Not enough info to work with. Your estimations are a waste of energy.

Agencies don't share info all the time. Information is power.

 

[MarkvW]

Meh. Dc is full of lobbyists making all kinds of cases for people with some money. Wonderboy is just one of a legion.

Someone was a decider, maybe birrotte.
Cycling is not even college baseball. It is reasonable that no one cares, so birotte reads the signals and kills it.

Not enough info to work with. Your estimations are a waste of energy.

I agree with you. My point is that there is not enough evidence to come to a conclusion as to how and why the decision was made. The available evidence doesn't exclude the conspiracy/influence theory but it doesn't point to it either.

 

[Race Radio]

Another Wonderboy movie....Tyler sold the rights to his story

Wonder if they will do it Simpsons themed?
http://s245.beta.photobucket.com/user/BroDeal/media/simpsons_cycling_v2.png.html

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I agree with you. My point is that there is not enough evidence to come to a conclusion as to how and why the decision was made. The available evidence doesn't exclude the conspiracy/influence theory but it doesn't point to it either.

And there is not enough evidence to come to the conclusion that there was a "HUGE" problem with the SOL. But that didn't stop you from pontificating some bovine excrement regarding that subject. There is absolutely no evidence Frankie "helped" Lance dope. But that didn't stop you from pontificating some bovine excrement regarding that subject. There was no reliable evidence that the Feds weren't joining the Qui Tam. But that didn't stop you from pontificating some bovine excrement regarding that subject. Heck, you went over that idiocy for several hours, strutting around like the c0ck of the roost.

This could go on for days with you. Dang.

 

[thehog]

http://onlyagame.wbur.org/2013/03/09/lance-armstrong-mccann

BL: Did the interview meet up to your expectations?

MM: Yeah it did, I feel like we covered a good deal of ground. Having said that, there are a lot of things that he said that I have to verify or refute before we can reveal them. There’s the trick of the fact that he’s being sued by a whole bunch of parties, including the Department of Justice in a case that could be worth over $90 million. He’s obviously reticent about being quoted on the record while this is going on but there are other claims that he made, and it’s my job to do some due diligence and figure out what exactly those claims are in terms of accuracy.

BL: There were you in Lance Armstrong’s home in Austin, Texas. Did you look around the wall and see that there were still seven yellow jerseys framed there?

MM: I did look and they were not there. We were in his home office so I don’t know if he ever had them there, but they were certainly not there. I did look.

 

[Basecase]

Federal case against Armstrong etc

When will it get underway and conclude?

Will details / findings be made public?

Will outcomes affect UCI pres election this year?

 

[RobbieCanuck]

When will it get underway and conclude?

Will details / findings be made public?

Will outcomes affect UCI pres election this year?

If you are talking about the current investigation into obstruction, intimidation and witness tampering which is the only current "federal" investigation into Armstrong, it will start only and when prosecutors have fully investigated the case and decide to proceed with charges.

If charges are laid there will be a public trial. If not the DOJ usually does not reveal its evidence to the public. It will then take some intrepid journalist (if there are any) or perhaps the Forum veterans to ferret out the salient details for public consumption, but don't hold your breath.

There is nothing and nobody out there that seems to have the policital will to challenge McQuaid which is strange given his inaction that has thrust the sport into the trash can.

There does seem to be a pregnant pause in the DOJ investigation, which I suspect stimulated your thoughts.

 

[Basecase]

Sorry was talking about the qui tam whistleblower case really

 

[DirtyWorks]

Sorry was talking about the qui tam whistleblower case really

Based on Wonderboy's litigation history, my guess is he settles with nothing made public, no deposition(s) either, then declares bankruptcy. Whatever settlements were reached are now paid 10ths of pennies on the dollar and stretched out over time to further discount the penalty.

Months ago, there was a demand for volumes of Wonderboy documentation to be released to some law enforcement agency that never happened. One of the perks of money is that it's easy to somehow defy the courts and law enforcement. Regulation enforcement is very very weak now in the U.S., so don't get your hopes up too high.

The UCI is not a Democratic organization. While there are the appearance of elections, its largely run by Hein as he sees fit. So, he'll pick his successor some day and Pat's going to be reelected. The management committee recently stirred from a decades-long slumber when they shelved Hein's lawsuit against a journalist. It's back to sleep for them after such hard work.

Changing the topic: Who are the other two geniuses on the left side of this photo? http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/03/08/former-colorado-gov-ritter-hosted-lance-armstrong-meeting/

We know the right side is Wiesel, Ritter, then Wonderboy.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Sorry was talking about the qui tam whistleblower case really

That case is apparently in pre-trial discovery stage and you can bet this will take a long time unless the assigned judge moves the case along with strict time-lines to get discovery completed. There will be more jockeying by the lawyers than Kentucky has horses.

 

[ElChingon]

That case is apparently in pre-trial discovery stage and you can bet this will take a long time unless the assigned judge moves the case along with strict time-lines to get discovery completed. There will be more jockeying by the lawyers than Kentucky has horses.

Ughhh... this stuff takes way too long, by the time they even start it will be a few years down the line. This is yet another reason cycling can't clean up, there is still so much pending past cases that anything new has to wait just as long.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Ughhh... this stuff takes way too long, by the time they even start it will be a few years down the line. This is yet another reason cycling can't clean up, there is still so much pending past cases that anything new has to wait just as long.

But it has nothing to do with 'cycling'.
That has already been resolved and he has been banned for life.
Cycling has moved on from Armstrong - but as the same administration is still in place the problems remains.

 

[thehog]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...g-Im-like-Bill-Clinton-people-forgive-me.html


I am the resurrection.

 

[Oldman]

Based on Wonderboy's

Changing the topic: Who are the other two geniuses on the left side of this photo? http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/03/08/former-colorado-gov-ritter-hosted-lance-armstrong-meeting/

We know the right side is Wiesel, Ritter, then Wonderboy.

The other choade isn't Wiesel's, it's his lap dog, Steve Johnson of USACycling.
The other two star-struck folks; no clue. Like they have...

 

[Oldman]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...g-Im-like-Bill-Clinton-people-forgive-me.html


I am the resurrection.

I didn't feel it necessary to deprive him of all his money and resources until I read the article. Granted, the reporter is clearly not any more a fan than most of us but if Armstrong actually said what is attributed to him he needs to be left without resources.
That, or he needs to be institutionalized because he's snapped.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...g-Im-like-Bill-Clinton-people-forgive-me.html


I am the resurrection.

Comments below the article are pretty one-sided....