Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[ChrisE]

I didnt embellish anything - you did, when you stated that BA still "hung around" with LA until Frankie was "sacked".

I see you're trying to downgrade it - simple fact is they were on a cordial basis, but it was unraveling because Frankie was not getting on the USPS program.

I agree they were cordial, and I would assume PED use is why he got sacked after 2000. They were cordial until LA Confidential. If LA Confidential wouldn't have happened would they still be cordial? I bet...if you can exchange emails like that with your enemy that supposedly made your life hell the last 10 years I would assume the cordial stuff would have continued.

This just merges back into the bigger point; she knew things all along that would have blown the lid off of the LA myth and his enrichment based upon a lie, Livestrong, beating Superman's 3 TdF record, sitting while Superman got "forced" into signing a retraction and the Trek debacle, etc. I understand why, and have no beef with self preservation.

You got guys like HJ running around saying she never had the chance to stop all of this until SCA. That revisionist history BS excuse is the point. Be real for a change. There are more things at play here than waiting around poised for a chance to be deposed so you can shine the light on something.

 

[Granville57]

Why does she give a **** about LA?

At this point, I'd say that is a valid question. Why does she? Best to ignore, perhaps? The empire has crumbled. LA will, inevitably, only cause himself more damage in the coming months with each misstep and failed calculation. Not that it won't be entertaining, mind you.

One minute she's crying on CNN...

And that's the part I still don't get. Did she honestly think that LA had instantly reformed and would become, overnight, the beacon of personal transformation for all the world to see?

One would think that Betsy, all of people on the planet, would not have set her hopes too high for 3.0. I mean, FFS, seriously?

OMG, LA is still a ***!

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I agree they were cordial, and I would assume PED use is why he got sacked after 2000. They were cordial until LA Confidential. If LA Confidential wouldn't have happened would they still be cordial? I bet...if you can exchange emails like that with your enemy that supposedly made your life hell the last 10 years I would assume the cordial stuff would have continued.

This just merges back into the bigger point; she knew things all along that would have blown the lid off of the LA myth and his enrichment based upon a lie, Livestrong, beating Superman's 3 TdF record, sitting while Superman got "forced" into signing a retraction and the Trek debacle, etc. I understand why, and have no beef with self preservation.

You got guys like HJ running around saying she never had the chance to stop all of this until SCA. That revisionist history BS excuse is the point. Be real for a change. There are more things at play here than waiting around poised for a chance to be deposed so you can shine the light on something

The only person doing the revisionist history is you - or have you forgotten that your earlier barb was to say "whatever hardship she has endured was her choice".

Now you want her to have spilled the beans way back whenever.

Strange too how you say you read her affidavit yet ignore in it that she had no idea what LeMond had said regarding LA or who Burke was.
And you keep repeating that Frankie was "sacked' - you are on about 'history' when you don't even know some basics.

 

[ChrisE]

The only person doing the revisionist history is you - or have you forgotten that your earlier barb was to say "whatever hardship she has endured was her choice".

Now you want her to have spilled the beans way back whenever.

Strange too how you say you read her affidavit yet ignore in it that she had no idea what LeMond had said regarding LA or who Burke was.
And you keep repeating that Frankie was "sacked' - you are on about 'history' when you don't even know some basics.

Calm down vortex. Your RPMs are ramping up and you are starting to screw up the equilibrium in this thread.

I never wrote she should "spill the beans". I wrote she had the opportunity to but didn't. I wrote I understand why she didn't, and wrote I have no beef with it. That has nothing to do with what you are implying, and you are outright lying about what I wrote in a post you just quoted.

"Sacked". Ok, not offered to ride and was a DS or such. Is that better? I hope so, because I have that familiar feeling of that barrel ride at Astroworld when I get in a discussion with you longer than 1 post. So, have fun with your reply knowing once again you got the last word in, when in reality once again somebody just got tired of your BS and moved on.

 

[Hugh Januss]

You got guys like HJ running around saying she never had the chance to stop all of this until SCA. That revisionist history BS excuse is the point. Be real for a change. There are more things at play here than waiting around poised for a chance to be deposed so you can shine the light on something.

Never said she didn't have the chance, she never had the inclination. She still didn't when she was deposed, she just told the truth. It was not until Lance went on the attack that she started her own crusade. I know you are smart enough to see this so I can only assume that you are trolling now. Settle down.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Calm down vortex. Your RPMs are ramping up and you are starting to screw up the equilibrium in this thread.

I never wrote she should "spill the beans". I wrote she had the opportunity to but didn't. I wrote I understand why she didn't, and wrote I have no beef with it. That has nothing to do with what you are implying, and you are outright lying about what I wrote in a post you just quoted.

"Sacked". Ok, not offered to ride and was a DS or such. Is that better? I hope so, because I have that familiar feeling of that barrel ride at Astroworld when I get in a discussion with you longer than 1 post. So, have fun with your reply knowing once again you got the last word in, when in reality once again somebody just got tired of your BS and moved on.

It almost, almost sounds like you wish to have a civil conversation - if thats your preference then drop the pettiness and juvenile name calling.

If you ever want to have the last word then stop giving me stuff to correct you on. You accuse others of embellishing stuff yet you know that Frankie was not "sacked", why.
But I am happy that you have moved on, farewell and all that.

 

[frenchfry]

She didn't "raise hell" in '99 because no one asked. When she did get around to "raising hell" it was simply because she was asked, under oath, what she had heard. She only really really started "raising hell" after Lance's PR team started painting her as a deranged liar and tried to squeeze Frankie out of the bike race biz. I think her actions all along were consistent with someone who heard something that they didn't want to hear about a person that used to be a friend, and is a stand-up individual who has been taught not to lie since she was a little girl. Also she is a bit of a fighter, if you go after her she will not run away, as Lance found out.

You took the words right out of my mouth. It is really quite simple when looked at rationally.

 

[frenchfry]

"The foundation said it reduced its budget nearly 11 percent in 2013 to $38.4 million, but said Tuesday that revenue is already 2.5 percent ahead of projections.

It's easy to exceed projections, when you're anticipating getting ******-all...

I had noticed this cleverly constructed phrase too. By combining 2 unrelated ideas in the same sentence, (budget $38.4m / revenue +2.5%) you are left with the impression that revenue is 2.5% more than $38.4m when in reality it could be significantly less. Marketing and manipulation is the real vocation of Livestrong and this doesn't appear to have stopped with Lancey-poo out of the picture.

I am assuming the amount referenced as "budget" is the spend.

 

[wirral]

I had noticed this cleverly constructed phrase too. By combining 2 unrelated ideas in the same sentence, (budget $38.4m / revenue +2.5%) you are left with the impression that revenue is 2.5% more than $38.4m when in reality it could be significantly less. Marketing and manipulation is the real vocation of Livestrong and this doesn't appear to have stopped with Lancey-poo out of the picture.

I am assuming the amount referenced as "budget" is the spend.

Indeed and a newly qualified accounting technician could shift some revenues from one accounting period to another.

Livestrong Foundation to be rolled up in around 20 months is my guess. Look when they start selling property or moving to crappier offices and laying off salaried staff.

 

[blackcat]

Indeed and a newly qualified accounting technician could shift some revenues from one accounting period to another.

Livestrong Foundation to be rolled up in around 20 months is my guess. Look when they start selling property or moving to crappier offices and laying off salaried staff.

purpose has finished

was never about cancer awareness
was always about cancer jesus awareness
cancer jesus is dead now and cant shill for nike, subaru, trek, michelob, etc etc etc frs tired of being tired? no?

 

[webvan]

She didn't "raise hell" in '99 because no one asked. When she did get around to "raising hell" it was simply because she was asked, under oath, what she had heard. She only really really started "raising hell" after Lance's PR team started painting her as a deranged liar and tried to squeeze Frankie out of the bike race biz. I think her actions all along were consistent with someone who heard something that they didn't want to hear about a person that used to be a friend, and is a stand-up individual who has been taught not to lie since she was a little girl. Also she is a bit of a fighter, if you go after her she will not run away, as Lance found out.

All good points, that may also explain why no she/the Andreus apparently did not make any comments to Lance (she only gave Frankie an earful right as she understood that meant he was also doping, or was that later?) after witnessing his discussion of PEDs with his doctors in their presence. Too bad she didn't though because now he couldn't say he "doesn't remember"...

 

[ChrisE]

You took the words right out of my mouth. It is really quite simple when looked at rationally.

Then your mouth and brain is full of items other than rational thought.

Did FL wait around until he was "asked" or some random civil lawsuit came about? To say that her hands were tied because "nobody asked", while LA committed all of these acts, is ludicrous. You thinking that is rational? Check yourself.

You etal act like she is some super hybrid of Joan of Arc and Dirty Harry, waiting in 2005 to be unchained to fumigate cycling. If it wasn't for Walsh, and if LA gave FL a job, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

Couple that with the bizarre email exchange just published; why would somebody under so much alleged turmoil and victimized by the great satan over the last 10 years act in such a way?

The whole sport and this whole ordeal is a cesspool. I don't for one minute believe the "turmoil" supposedly caused by the doping in the sport or what happened during USPS. At this stage of the game those moral discussions had already occurred. From TH's circle the wagons and his and FL's praising of LA's ability, to AC giving LA a wide berth, to Wiggins' hero worship, to UCI and other orgs aversion to controversy caused by AAF's, regardless of bribes. Riis, the chicken, Rico, Gilbert's crazy riding, OP, etc and LA is the big bad guy in all of this. Right.

LA's total lack of interpersonal skills and callousness, brazenness, and his mouth got him in trouble coupled with the point in history this occurred with social media and 24/7 news. It started rolling from there. Only fools would act like any of the players in this whole thing are without criticism in a perfectly moral situation.

 

[thehog]

....and then there's this:

McQuaid has reiterated the claim that the governing body did nothing wrong. “I do not think the UCI made mistakes. The statistics show the UCI was the most advanced in the fight against doping.”

He added that he didn’t believe that Armstrong would have taken the risk of using doping products after suffering advanced testicular cancer, being cured and then deciding to return to the sport.

“I was fooled,” he said. “I believed there was no way a man so close to death would go and start putting stuff into his body that could be dangerous.”

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...n-insists-UCI-is-blameless.aspx#ixzz2UgGK2l4K

 

[frenchfry]

Then your mouth and brain is full of items other than rational thought.

Did FL wait around until he was "asked" or some random civil lawsuit came about? To say that her hands were tied because "nobody asked", while LA committed all of these acts, is ludicrous. You thinking that is rational? Check yourself.

You etal act like she is some super hybrid of Joan of Arc and Dirty Harry, waiting in 2005 to be unchained to fumigate cycling. If it wasn't for Walsh, and if LA gave FL a job, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

Couple that with the bizarre email exchange just published; why would somebody under so much alleged turmoil and victimized by the great satan over the last 10 years act in such a way?

The whole sport and this whole ordeal is a cesspool. I don't for one minute believe the "turmoil" supposedly caused by the doping in the sport or what happened during USPS. At this stage of the game those moral discussions had already occurred. From TH's circle the wagons and his and FL's praising of LA's ability, to AC giving LA a wide berth, to Wiggins' hero worship, to UCI and other orgs aversion to controversy caused by AAF's, regardless of bribes. Riis, the chicken, Rico, Gilbert's crazy riding, OP, etc and LA is the big bad guy in all of this. Right.

LA's total lack of interpersonal skills and callousness, brazenness, and his mouth got him in trouble coupled with the point in history this occurred with social media and 24/7 news. It started rolling from there. Only fools would act like any of the players in this whole thing are without criticism in a perfectly moral situation.

I think I get it, you don't like Betsy Andreau. I also figure that nothing will change your mind so I'm not going to bother making clever arguments.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

We need elizab to post again.

 

[aphronesis]

I think I get it, you don't like Betsy Andreau. I also figure that nothing will change your mind so I'm not going to bother making clever arguments.

No, what he doesn't like is the substitution of a (false) hagiography for the old (false) messianism. It's only a structural substitution.

But the pious are the most difficult to disabuse of rigidly set notions.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Then your mouth and brain is full of items other than rational thought.

It's good you're back already, and even better that you are going to have a rational discussion this time.......

Did FL wait around until he was "asked" or some random civil lawsuit came about? To say that her hands were tied because "nobody asked", while LA committed all of these acts, is ludicrous. You thinking that is rational? Check yourself.

You etal act like she is some super hybrid of Joan of Arc and Dirty Harry, waiting in 2005 to be unchained to fumigate cycling. If it wasn't for Walsh, and if LA gave FL a job, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

After asking one good question, the rest is far from rational, in fact one could say it goes beyond embellishment into made up angry twaddle.

Read Floyd's emails- remember at the start he had no idea who to send then to and who, if anyone he could trust. This is when USADA were there, the media were there, and there was a lot (an awful lot) of suspicion against LA, yet he didn't know who to go to.

Couple that with the bizarre email exchange just published; why would somebody under so much alleged turmoil and victimized by the great satan over the last 10 years act in such a way?

Wow, do you really need this explained?

The whole sport and this whole ordeal is a cesspool. I don't for one minute believe the "turmoil" supposedly caused by the doping in the sport or what happened during USPS. At this stage of the game those moral discussions had already occurred. From TH's circle the wagons and his and FL's praising of LA's ability, to AC giving LA a wide berth, to Wiggins' hero worship, to UCI and other orgs aversion to controversy caused by AAF's, regardless of bribes. Riis, the chicken, Rico, Gilbert's crazy riding, OP, etc and LA is the big bad guy in all of this. Right.

Which no-one has claimed - but it might explain your anger.

LA's total lack of interpersonal skills and callousness, brazenness, and his mouth got him in trouble coupled with the point in history this occurred with social media and 24/7 news. It started rolling from there. Only fools would act like any of the players in this whole thing are without criticism in a perfectly moral situation.

No one has claimed this either, so....

 

[Merckx index]

LA's total lack of interpersonal skills and callousness, brazenness, and his mouth got him in trouble coupled with the point in history this occurred with social media and 24/7 news.

I really agree with this. That was for all the world to see on Oprah. More than anything else, what I took from that interview was that this is a guy who simply doesn't know how to empathize with others, and can't even fake it (in that sense, at least he came across as very real - he didn't hide who he really is because he didn't know how). A guy who doesn't know how to connect with people in any situation other than one in which he's the boss and tells them what to do.

I don't think we have a major disagreement here. Most in the Clinic have long maintained that it wasn't the doping per se that made LA so objectionable, it was all the stuff connected to his doping:

1) the pressure on teammates to dope
2) the lawsuits to protect his image
3) the harassment of those he thought threatened the image
4) the cancer shield

and so on. Those actions separate him from the typical dopers, who keep their mouths shut as much as possible when accused. (Wiggins has deviated a little from this, and paid the Clinic price for it, but he hasn't sued or harassed anyone yet).

As for Betsy, she can speak for herself, but I don't think she regards herself as a hero. She was put in a very bad position by someone she used to be quite close to. The name-calling was bad enough, but it must have been much worse because LA was not some stranger that she could view dispassionately. It's hard to go on the attack against someone you have considered a long-time friend. I think HJ has it right when he says "she heard something she didn't want to hear". That "didn't want to hear" is so crucial, it's what caused so much pain.

Why did Betsy want to see LA? It wasn't to be vindicated, to establish that she was right. That all came a few months ago. It's something very personal. She wants something on the order of, I was your close friend and I betrayed you, I'm so sorry.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

No, what he doesn't like is the substitution of a (false) hagiography for the old (false) messianism. It's only a structural substitution.

But the pious are the most difficult to disabuse of rigidly set notions.

When you say "it's only a structural substitution", the "it" is made up irrational angry twaddle, or if you are looking for a big all encompassing word, "horseshoe!t".

 

[aphronesis]

When you say "it's only a structural substitution", the "it" is made up irrational angry twaddle, or if you are looking for a big all encompassing word, "horseshoe!t".

I haven't posted here, let alone any twaddle. And I can't speak for Chris' anger level. Nor am I looking for any words--let alone profanities--vocabulary's fine thanks. But, you are correct that the "it" does apply to a certain amount of irrationality in this context. The fact that the most recent post before yours tried to make the issue into a "dislike" of Betsy is evidence of that. One doesn't have to agree with others to get the terms of their arguments more or less correct.

 

[red_flanders]

Why anyone responds to the twaddle at this point is beyond me.

 

[aphronesis]

Why anyone responds to the twaddle at this point is beyond me.

Does indeed seem a bit irrational....

 

[alberto.legstrong]

Why anyone responds to the twaddle at this point is beyond me.

Are you kidding me, Sir? this is an absolute Smorgasbord of Schadenfreud. And I find it delicious.

These sad, self-deluded people carried his water despite overwhelming evidence of the fraud they tried to convince us idn't exist. Now they are left to these irrational shoulda coulda woulda's and mindless spin to try to somehow...well, what? ... trying to reassure themselves that Lance is a victim. Or something?

Whatever. Their 'Twaddle' (is that the word of the day on ths thread?) amounts to a tremendous merde sandwich that they can never get enough of. And, gosh darn it, I am enjoying the show.

If anything I wish they posted MORE. A LOT more.

 

[blackcat]

chris just needs to get laid. he will be ok then.

 

[Scott SoCal]

Are you kidding me, Sir? this is an absolute Smorgasbord of Schadenfreud. And I find it delicious.

These sad, self-deluded people carried his water despite overwhelming evidence of the fraud they tried to convince us idn't exist. Now they are left to these irrational shoulda coulda woulda's and mindless spin to try to somehow...well, what? ... trying to reassure themselves that Lance is a victim. Or something?

Whatever. Their 'Twaddle' (is that the word of the day on ths thread?) amounts to a tremendous merde sandwich that they can never get enough of. And, gosh darn it, I am enjoying the show.

If anything I wish they posted MORE. A LOT more.

Post of the day. Well done.