Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[JMBeaushrimp]

well, if Hitler was caught and brought to the Nuremberg tribunal, it's quite possible he would get longer ban and more titles stripped off than ordinary Goering

but don't worry, LA wil tell everything, at least was ordered to by the new boss on the block to tell everything...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/froome-lance-armstrong-can-help-cycling-by-sharing-his-story

Full *** analogy.

 

[Bosco10]

Full *** analogy.

That was a bit extreme. lol.. I only go as far as the Al Capone analogy.

 

[D-Queued]

The 6 months seems very light. It is no secret that guys like Leipheimer, Danielson, Horner were doping long before they ever got to Europe.

Ryder doped as MTB, doped at Rabo, probably doped on HealthNet and how could one possibly not dope on Phonak? He lives in Hawaii near a well-known doping doctor and probably dopes now. "wonderfully stable blood profile"

The other shoe has gotta fall someday.

This caught my funny bone.

Are you suggesting that Ryder could have been like 'Reefer Ross' Rebagliatti, and have had a 'second hand smoke' experience?

In other words, that on Phonak it would have been impossible to have not inhaled, injested or received drugs through osmotic transfer just by being in the same room even if he were not on a specific doping program?

As an excuse, it sounds perfectly Canadian.

Dave.

 

[86TDFWinner]

While I think that is the point of the discussed show, he can't. Bach has spoken clearly on the matter and Cookson has no choice but to do as he wishes.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mo...ioc-lance-armstrong-doping-sochi-olympics.ap/

Beat me to it, i agree. No way Cookson waltzes into power @ UCI and "suddenly" gives Wonderboy a reduction, no way. IMO of course.

Tygart DETESTS Lance, at least he certainly comes off as such. All the crap Wonderboy's done to him with the threats and so forth, just doesn;t seem feasible for him to allow Wonderboy to get a get out of jail free card.

 

[86TDFWinner]

He aint gonna sing. Wiesel and Stapleton will not allow it. He knows that.

This. I agree, won't happen.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Armstrong wasted too much time fighting the process as opposed to the allegations. He never had any intention on cooperating with ANYONE. I guess he felt since he was able to scutter the Federal investigation, he could go after the USADA with the same results.

Going forward, he is calculating that any information he has will be billed to Travis Tygart. In other words, he will look to parse out bits and pieces depending on what those bits can buy him, but he wants to see the receipt in advance.

The more time he spends doing this, the less his information is worth.

Exposing Ferrari, Bruyneel, the doctors and the people like Motoman who procured the drugs will be done by either the investigating committees or law enforcement. They don't really need Armstrong's testimony.

And as much as people say that McQuaid should be outed, Armstrong's reign of terror took place under the watchful eye of Hein Verbruggen, who is now a retired old man and doesn't care one way or another what happens going forward.

The point made about the lack or worth of Armstrong's potential testimony is a good one. In the Gibney film, he remarks that the truth hasn't been heard yet. Well, what are you waiting for then, Lance?

Great post, thanks.

 

[86TDFWinner]

More news(sorry if it's been posted already):

http://www.cycling.tv/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=20300&ATCLID=209306942

BBC Claiming Wonderboys ban could be lifted/reduced(oh dear god):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/24937488

 

[MonkeyFace]

Some of you really don't get how lame of a punishment a lifetime ban is. The guy isn't being sent to the Gulag or chained up in someone's basement. The guy still gets up in the morning and maybe eats breakfast with the wife and kids, goes for a run or a bike ride, and maybe every other month flies out to relax at his second home in Hawaii. He can do almost anything he wants to except compete sanctioned athletic events. Think about how stupid that is when compared to real injustice. The guy is banned from sanctioned sport because he is an absolute embarrassment to everything sport should represent. If though you still think that he still is somehow the recipient of grand injustice, please for the love of god sign me up double helping of this injustice. I have mortgage and a kid I will need to put through college so I need all the injustice I can get. But to say that he is undeserving of the ban he has received in-spite of all the cheating, stealing, lying, and damage he has done to the sport would be more than just a little silly.

 

[blackcat]

Hmmm... I always thought it was "throwunderbussery".

no

its busthrowundery

DearWiggo coined it. Send him a pm and congratulate him.

actually, i think i may have portmanteau'ed it meself, coz he the first iteration of DW was "bus throw undery".

undery looks clumsy there however

 

[blackcat]

Some of you really don't get how lame of a punishment a lifetime ban is. The guy isn't being sent to the Gulag or chained up in someone's basement. The guy still gets up in the morning and maybe eats breakfast with the wife and kids, goes for a run or a bike ride, and maybe every other month flies out to relax at his second home in Hawaii. He can do almost anything he wants to except compete sanctioned athletic events. Think about how stupid that is when compared to real injustice. The guy is banned from sanctioned sport because he is an absolute embarrassment to everything sport should represent. If though you still think that he still is somehow the recipient of grand injustice, please for the love of god sign me up double helping of this injustice. I have mortgage and a kid I will need to put through college so I need all the injustice I can get. But to say that he is undeserving of the ban he has received in-spite of all the cheating, stealing, lying, and damage he has done to the sport would be more than just a little silly.

but Lance had stock in the new company that marged all the Ironman tri's.

Dont think he ran Boston and NY marathon for nothin.

A racing licence would allow him to still earn money from Kona.

I dont know how his equity incentives worked with the company, since he was banned

ask Race Radio

 

[Merckx index]

In talking about bans, posters here generally glide over the fact that all the suspensions handed down by USADA had both a retroactive and proactive component. The retroactive component is the period of time in the past during which all results were invalidated. The proactive component, which is generally and incorrectly assumed to be the period of the full ban, is the time in the future in which the rider is not allowed to compete.

To say that riders were given six month bans is like saying Contador was given a six month ban. In fact, his ban lasted two years, but most of it was retroactive. The same principle is in effect with the USADA bans. IIRC, all of the riders were given at least two year bans, including both the retroactive and proactive components, with most of the time retroactive.

LA’s retroactive component alone was more than ten years. Adding that to his current proactive suspension, and he has been banned for more than fifteen years.

I think enough is enough. Let him compete if he wants to. He isn’t going to return to pro cycling; he can’t compete at that level any more. If he wants to compete in triathlons, and the people running the events don’t prevent him from doing so with their own ban, then why should any of us care? It will give him something to do with his life. Lance Armstrong sitting around his house and moping is of no value to anyone. Given some purpose in life again, maybe he can eventually put his undeniable energies to some positive cause.

And if not, so what? Many here in the Clinic seem to worry that given half a chance, LA will return to his days of media glory, with sponsors lining up to support him again. Come on. His doping has been exposed, most people can’t forgive how he lied about that for so long—not to mention his extremely clumsy and insincere attempt to apologize with Oprah--and any who do forgive are not going to forget. And at his age, he is not going to perform so well in triathlons that, even without all his baggage, it could propel him to anything remotely close to what he enjoyed during his TDF days. Even if he were to have some success in triathlons, his results will always be tainted by the past. No one is going to take him that seriously. He is going to remain harmless.

The only argument I see for continuing the ban at this point is as leverage to get him to talk. Fine, but make him a firm offer. Come in, right now, and talk, and we will definitely lift the ban.

But I wouldn't expect much. He has nothing new or significant to say about other riders doping, stuff that has not already come out in the testimony of other riders, that is for sure. He might have some very interesting things to say about the leadership of UCI, but not only has he not said anything yet, but he hasn’t even hinted that he might have something to say—which you would expect him to do if he were angling for a deal. So I think either he doesn’t have anything very incriminating to say—things that could actually be corroborated and used as evidence—or if he does, he has decided for whatever reasons to remain silent.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

no

its busthrowundery

DearWiggo coined it. Send him a pm and congratulate him.

actually, i think i may have portmanteau'ed it meself, coz he the first iteration of DW was "bus throw undery".

undery looks clumsy there however

Agreed. My version was hyphenated, innit?

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1127237&postcount=85

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I think enough is enough. Let him compete if he wants to. He isn’t going to return to pro cycling;

I am curious how people feel about Hincapie doing triathlons now. To my mind, he doped as much as Lance and yet now gets free reign on all post-cycling gains.

The problem I have with your argument is that it sends a very clear message. It's my belief that without dope, LA would never have been known outside a very small circle of close family and friends. Dope and dope alone made him who he is as an athlete, and if he is allowed to compete, he will be paid, he will make money from it, and the message is this: doping pays, very well.

 

[86TDFWinner]

I am curious how people feel about Hincapie doing triathlons now. To my mind, he doped as much as Lance and yet now gets free reign on all post-cycling gains.

The problem I have with your argument is that it sends a very clear message. It's my belief that without dope, LA would never have been known outside a very small circle of close family and friends. Dope and dope alone made him who he is as an athlete, and if he is allowed to compete, he will be paid, he will make money from it, and the message is this: doping pays, very well.

This. I agree with what you've said here completely. It's been shown here by numerous people, that the best TDF finish Wonderboy could muster up pre doping was that in the mid to low 30s, not very impressive to anyone.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I am curious how people feel about Hincapie doing triathlons now. To my mind, he doped as much as Lance and yet now gets free reign on all post-cycling gains.

Best case, he's back to bro-deal sponsorship. The money he stole from clean riders is in the bank. He's marketing his clothes and whatever at those Tri's so it's not a huge payday for him.

It's absolutely true though, he can do WADA sanctioned anything.

 

[MarkvW]

I am curious how people feel about Hincapie doing triathlons now. To my mind, he doped as much as Lance and yet now gets free reign on all post-cycling gains.

The problem I have with your argument is that it sends a very clear message. It's my belief that without dope, LA would never have been known outside a very small circle of close family and friends. Dope and dope alone made him who he is as an athlete, and if he is allowed to compete, he will be paid, he will make money from it, and the message is this: doping pays, very well.

Without dope, professional cycling as we know it would not exist. Lance would not exist. Hincapie would not exist. Merckx, Anquetil, and Coppi would not exist.

 

[42x16ss]

This. I agree with what you've said here completely. It's been shown here by numerous people, that the best TDF finish Wonderboy could muster up pre doping was that in the mid to low 30s, not very impressive to anyone.

Yeah, but he did podium Amstel and Liege, while winning WC, CSS and FW. If he was modest enough to build on his talents, LA would have been a solid classics rider, probably similar to Phil Anderson after he stopped trying to win the TdF. The guy had to have some talent, at least enough to see him as worth putting on a program.

The problem is that he's a weapons grade @rsehole and a vindictive, sociopathic alpha male pr!ck of the highest order that couldn't settle for his natural ability, or even just doping to the same levels as his contemporaries.

Edit: However I do think he shouldn't even be allowed to even own a bike ever again.

 

[42x16ss]

Without dope, professional cycling as we know it would not exist. Lance would not exist. Hincapie would not exist. Merckx, Anquetil, and Coppi would not exist.

Disagree on those 3. Amphetamines and stimulants <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< EPO, HGH, Testosterone and Tranfusions.

 

[MarkvW]

Disagree on those 3. Amphetamines and stimulants <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< EPO, HGH, Testosterone and Tranfusions.

They needed those amphetamines and stimulants to win in their era. That's why they took them. If they didn't need them to win, they wouldn't have taken them.

The dopers in the EPO era needed that EPO to win. That's why they took it.

 

[frenchfry]

To the bolded: Really BroDeal? I don't see how you can say that. You've been here the whole time, you know all the nastly dirty underhanded things Lance did to fight this.

All the other cyclists took drugs, then cooperated. 6 months to a year is reasonable given their cooperation.

Lance on the other hand, took drugs, transported drugs, coerced others to take drugs, made fraudulent contracts, launched fraudulent lawsuits, profited through his charity from what people thought was money going to cancer.

And then, on top of all that, where others cooperated, he attempted to destroy. Multiple lawsuits, had Livestrong lobbyists try to shut down USADA permanently, sought to bribe USADA so he'd have an edge on them, most likely incited the UCI's pathetic attempts to shut it down, and on and on and on.

How can you say their penalties are disproportionate? I would say they are exactly proportionate. Lance did a whole hell of a lot more in the furtherance of cheating in sports than all the other cyclists who testified in this case did combined, and that's including the firestorms that Hamilton and Flandis ignited to try and burn down the USADA.

I tend to think some of the 6 month suspensions were too light, but your summary is pretty good and justifies USADA's actions.

In the end it might have appeared like USADA was singling out Armstrong only because he forced them to by attempting to shut them down.

 

[42x16ss]

They needed those amphetamines and stimulants to win in their era. That's why they took them. If they didn't need them to win, they wouldn't have taken them.

The dopers in the EPO era needed that EPO to win. That's why they took it.

Certainly, but the drugs they took then didn't completely change an athlete's physiological abilities like blood doping, only allowed them to use what they already had for a little longer.

EPO was a complete, total game changer.

 

[Archibald]

Best case, he's back to bro-deal sponsorship. The money he stole from clean riders is in the bank. He's marketing his clothes and whatever at those Tri's so it's not a huge payday for him.

It's absolutely true though, he can do WADA sanctioned anything.

the pay off for ratting out his buddy...

bit mixed on this one.

On one hand, he's done the crime and done the time, so should be able to continue with life in general. So the theory goes... regardless of whether the punishment actually fitted the crime.

If he'd kept his mouth shut and fought USADA like/with LA, would he have ended up in the same basket?

 

[Archibald]

Certainly, but the drugs they took then didn't completely change an athlete's physiological abilities like blood doping, only allowed them to use what they already had for a little longer.

EPO was a complete, total game changer.

I guess you could look at Kimmage as an example. With the amphetamines he could stay with the pack. With EPO he'd have more likely have been at the pointy end

 

[Dear Wiggo]

They needed those amphetamines and stimulants to win in their era. That's why they took them. If they didn't need them to win, they wouldn't have taken them.

The dopers in the EPO era needed that EPO to win. That's why they took it.

Apologies to others if this is too OT, but you are way off the mark here. EPO et al turns donkeys into race horses. None of the Merckx gear does or did that.

 

[RownhamHill]

Apologies to others if this is too OT, but you are way off the mark here. EPO et al turns donkeys into race horses. None of the Merckx gear does or did that.

First, how could you possibly know? We assume that Mercx would have been just as dominant in his era if everyone had been clean, simply because he was so dominant using drugs. But this is guess work and belief, as there's no way of knowing.

Second, even if we assume the first bit to be true, and there was a 'natural order' that wasn't affected by earlier cheating, so what? The point is that the drugs of earlier eras did give improve an individual rider's performance, so individual riders to riders took them to help them win. Just like that riders in the epo era took epo in order to help them win.

You seem to be saying that it's alright to cheat and win in earlier eras because if no-one had been cheating you would have won anyway, whereas in the epo ear, the crime of successfully cheating is somehow morally much worse. I don't buy that because, let's face it, when you made the decision to cheat in either era you would have had no idea how well you were going to respond relative to any of your peers who were also cheating, and if you didn't cheat all bets were off anyway.