Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[Alpe73]

Can you point out where USADA ever said anything about giving LA a six month deal?

No I can't ... that's why I'm asking. Is there a credible source outlining a deal like that was offered or is it pure mythology?

 

[Race Radio]

Yep ... colossal error in judgment, bluff calling and arrogance on Lance's part.

On this we can surely agree

 

[neineinei]

Yep ... colossal error in judgment, bluff calling and arrogance on Lance's part.

Interesting ... that issue of the 'offer' of a deal. How credible are the rumors that Lance could have copped a deal that would have yielded him 6 months and 5 jerseys hanging on the wall?

If true (the deal offer), what does this/USADA say about the rigor of Lance's doping, coercion of doping, in comparison to those who testified against him and in comparison to guys like Frankie A?

I've never heard these rumors about any possible six month deal for Armstrong. Are you making them yourself?

Admitting to doping meant he would probably lose millions and millions and millions in sponsor deals, it would hurt Livestrong badly, maybe he would even lose it all together, he would have his budding triatlon empire crushed even before it emerged, all kinds of lawsuits would start, and it would mean subjecting to Tygart. What does not getting to race sanctioned triatlons, marathons and bicycle races matter when faced with that? He thought he could just ignore it. Then the USADA released the Reasoned Decision with all the Appendixes on the Internet, and it was all lost. Now, with all the stuff that really mattered gone, he wants to fight again and he wants revenge in every petty way there is. So he gets Hincapie to blame Andreau of having started the EPO use (no mommy, he started it, he hit me first)

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I've never heard these rumors about any possible six month deal for Armstrong. Are you making them yourself?

Neither have I - until recently.
TT did say that LA may have been able to retain 5 TdFs as long as he was truthful, that meant offering the full story.
The 6 months bit appears one of these things added in, never substantiated or denied, then it gets accepted.

Admitting to doping meant he would probably lose millions and millions and millions in sponsor deals, it would hurt Livestrong badly, maybe he would even lose it all together, he would have his budding triatlon empire crushed even before it emerged, all kinds of lawsuits would start, and it would mean subjecting to Tygart. What does not getting to race sanctioned triatlons, marathons and bicycle races matter when faced with that? He thought he could just ignore it. Then the USADA released the Reasoned Decision with all the Appendixes on the Internet, and it was all lost. Now, with all the stuff that really mattered gone, he wants to fight again and he wants revenge in every petty way there is. So he gets Hincapie to blame Andreau of having started the EPO use (no mommy, he started it, he hit me first)

The odd thing is that when LA was sanctioned in August he pretty much got a good deal. All the sponsors remained loyal and the general public was still unsure of what was really going on.
I am not sure whether it was at LAs behest, or McQs self preservation but the UCI insisting on getting the reasoned decision was why USADA released the overwhelming details that ultimately took them all down.
That's actually very sweet.

 

[Bosco10]

I've never heard these rumors about any possible six month deal for Armstrong. Are you making them yourself?

Admitting to doping meant he would probably lose millions and millions and millions in sponsor deals, it would hurt Livestrong badly, maybe he would even lose it all together, he would have his budding triatlon empire crushed even before it emerged, all kinds of lawsuits would start, and it would mean subjecting to Tygart. What does not getting to race sanctioned triatlons, marathons and bicycle races matter when faced with that? He thought he could just ignore it. Then the USADA released the Reasoned Decision with all the Appendixes on the Internet, and it was all lost. Now, with all the stuff that really mattered gone, he wants to fight again and he wants revenge in every petty way there is. So he gets Hincapie to blame Andreau of having started the EPO use (no mommy, he started it, he hit me first)

This. Lance had no intention of going along with USADA, no matter what was offered to him. It was business as usual, meaning he would use all of his brute-force tactics against USADA. But the jig was up before Lance knew what hit him. So now, after all is said & done, Lance is whining that he was treated unfairly. This might be reddest Red Herring in the history of Red Herrings.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

6 month deal?

Never read that anywhere.

 

[del1962]

Neither have I - until recently.
TT did say that LA may have been able to retain 5 TdFs as long as he was truthful, that meant offering the full story.
The 6 months bit appears one of these things added in, never substantiated or denied, then it gets accepted.


The odd thing is that when LA was sanctioned in August he pretty much got a good deal. All the sponsors remained loyal and the general public was still unsure of what was really going on.
I am not sure whether it was at LAs behest, or McQs self preservation but the UCI insisting on getting the reasoned decision was why USADA released the overwhelming details that ultimately took them all down.
That's actually very sweet.

Do you think that if the UCI had not asked for it, the reasoned decision would never have been published?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Do you think that if the UCI had not asked for it, the reasoned decision would never have been published?

Not in the full details, no.

Most sanctions are upheld by UCI as long as the process has been shown to be robust and compliant with the Anti-Doping Rules.
You do not need the full case history, affidavits etc.

 

[Oldman]

Neither have I - until recently.
TT did say that LA may have been able to retain 5 TdFs as long as he was truthful, that meant offering the full story.
The 6 months bit appears one of these things added in, never substantiated or denied, then it gets accepted.


The odd thing is that when LA was sanctioned in August he pretty much got a good deal. All the sponsors remained loyal and the general public was still unsure of what was really going on.
I am not sure whether it was at LAs behest, or McQs self preservation but the UCI insisting on getting the reasoned decision was why USADA released the overwhelming details that ultimately took them all down.
That's actually very sweet.

In retrospect it did go down harder than any of the overconfident players expected. Who would have guessed that Senator McCain would publicly rebuff LA/Weisel's lobbying attempts, all judges would allow the evidence to play out and so many people were willing to testify? When the water began to rise the rats grabbed any opportunity to float away from the great, SUCKING whirlpool that was Lance's dénouement.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

In retrospect it did go down harder than any of the overconfident players expected. Who would have guessed that Senator McCain would publicly rebuff LA/Weisel's lobbying attempts, all judges would allow the evidence to play out and so many people were willing to testify? When the water began to rise the rats grabbed any opportunity to float away from the great, SUCKING whirlpool that was Lance's dénouement.

Agree - and to be fair, it went down a lot harder than I expected too.

I think it was ScottSoCal who said since LA was hit by USADA he has played almost every bad hand possible. It shows that they had no control or plan and that probably was fueled by hubris and ignoring the good legal & PR advise for the bad legal/Pr advise.
What is amazing for me is that collectively, they inflicted more damage to themselves than USADA did.

 

[frenchfry]

This. Lance had no intention of going along with USADA, no matter what was offered to him. It was business as usual, meaning he would use all of his brute-force tactics against USADA. But the jig was up before Lance knew what hit him. So now, after all is said & done, Lance is whining that he was treated unfairly. This might be reddest Red Herring in the history of Red Herrings.

You might say it is the witch hunt of red herrings.

 

[Fausto's Schnauzer]

On this we can surely agree

I guess this scene would have been just too too painful.

 

[Scott SoCal]

You might say it is the witch hunt of red herrings.

Perhaps the Mother of all Red Herrings....

 

[Alpe73]

USADA talks to Lance's lawyers about a deal

Is there any credible source that outlines (speculates, even) what the pith and substance of that deal would have been?

Thanks.

 

[Race Radio]

Is there any credible source that outlines (speculates, even) what the pith and substance of that deal would have been?

Thanks.

Yes,

Wheelmen and the WADA code

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Is there any credible source that outlines (speculates, even) what the pith and substance of that deal would have been?

Thanks.

If you read just after the bit you snipped to its pretty clear from the letter linked that USADA were seeking to talk to LA and seeking the full truth.

Yup. Lifetime ban in charging letter. WADA code, written by Armstrong agent Stapleton, clearly allows 6 months for cooperation. USADA talks to Lance's lawyers about a deal, invite him to tell what he knows http://www.scribd.com/doc/150499171/USADA-invite-to-Lance-Armstrong even arrange a face to face with Travis, Lance, and the Governor of Colorado.

All of USADA's attempts to reach out to him were met with the same response, Fork off, I will never admit, You are not the boss of me. On Oprah Lance said turning down USADA's offer was his biggest mistake. Given the opportunity to go back he said he would have said yes.

Now he plays the victim? Yeah, that is going to work

 

[DirtyWorks]

If you read just after the bit you snipped to its pretty clear from the letter linked that USADA were seeking to talk to LA and seeking the full truth.

Just an addendum to this:

A forgotten part of Wonderboy's motivation to do nothing with USADA was both the international and national federation were aggressive in protecting the fraud from start to end.

Both the UCI and even USA Cycling publicly tried and failed to intervene on the sanction process. After that, there was still time to do a deal and it didn't get done because Wonderboy is "a fighter."

 

[mewmewmew13]

USADA did not stray from their charter with their Armstrong and Co. sanction.

The WADA standards and USADA's rules make clear their charter is to verify the integrity of athletes, not their federations. They have never reached outside the stated goal of verifying athletic performance.

Feel free to read their documentation. It's well written and pretty clearly defines roles and responsibilities.

I'm not sure what's going on with your posts lately, but something seems different.

??? YES!! this! BRO…what the heck is up with you lately…I'm sure now your account has been hacked…you've changed!

 

[Alpe73]

If you read just after the bit you snipped to its pretty clear from the letter linked that USADA were seeking to talk to LA and seeking the full truth.

Oh .... now I get it. Thanks, man.

 

[mewmewmew13]

6 month deal?

Never read that anywhere.

hey Glenn! long time!


and I think pretty much every one agrees with your statement …only one poster here saying "six month deal"…ad infinitum…
someone's trying to stoke a dead fire

 

[Granville57]

BRO…what the heck is up with you lately…

I suspect that our favorite Dark Cat is simply uncomfortable with too much solidarity in a place like this because that could easily lead to a lack of critical thinking—which is a legitimate concern to have. He's filling the role in the absence of others, which is also legitimate.


But then I see things like the bolded below

Tygart's account of the situation does not inspire confidence. According to him if Armstrong had not dropped out of the process then he would have kept all but two of his wins. In other words, if challenged then the USADA would have abided by the eight year limitation period but since Armstrong was not going to contest it at CAS, which probably would have found in his favor...

and I do wonder...

 

[BroDeal]

The problem with this place is there are too many haters who only view reality through the bottom of a glass filled with bile. They have created their own mythologies: Armstrong forced people to dope and Saint Betsy suffered her tribulations because she refused to commit perjury at the SCA arbitration. While that will undoubtedly make a nice Lifetime movie, the brave housewife suffers for sticking to her principles, reality is a bit more complex and a bit more venal. Luckily a source close to matter--very close--has reached out to me with the true story.

This what happened.

It was always about money. After finding out that Armstrong was doping, Betsy did not conspire behind the scenes to bring Armstrong to justice in 1996 or 1997 or 1998 or 1999 or 2000. It started when Frankie was let go. The legend that has been built up is that he was "fired" for not doping, but this ignores the basic economics of pro cycling at the time. People are hired to do a job, and if they cannot do it then someone will be found who can. EPO was required to do domestique duties at the Tour. A rider who could barely take care of himself was useless to the team, and Andreu's salary was based on him providing support for the Tour. Andreu made a conscious decision to not be capable of performing his duties. Betsy thinking that the rider ecosystem would change to accomodate Frankie's decision was Alice in Wonderland thinking.

Andreu made things worse by angling for a higher salary. It was an easy mistake to make. Riders on the team read about the team's budget, did some simple math, and realized that they were getting a small portion of the whole. They did not grok that after subtracting Armstrong's substantial salary, administrative costs, and travel and equipment expenditures, there was not a lot left over for the riders. In fact the team was nearly always in financial stress, and Armstrong received a piece of the team when his salary could not be paid.

Still, although Frankie would not be able to help Armstrong to a third win, the team took care of Frankie. He was hired as an assistant director. The salary was lower, of course, and Betsy seethed. As Frankie started his new role with the Postal team, his wife almost immediately began seeking out journalists to harm Armstrong. None were interested in 2001. It took until 2004 for her to find Walsh. This upset those who thought Frankie was their friend only to find out he and his wife were trying to destroy their lives. Action had be taken, just like anyone would to save their own livelihood. Far from being an innocent who only suffered because she told the truth, this was something she brought on herself, an internecine spat driven by the financial stress of opting out of the European pro peloton. The jealousy of watching old teammates prosper as they continued to ride exacerbated an already nasty battle.

In the background were the LeMonds, whose contribution to American cycling had been occluded by the rise of Armstrong. The Andreus were their perfect tool. Willing and well placed among Armtrong's ex-teammates, they could do the dirty work while Greg tried to limit his statements to the press, for which he was getting considerable blowback. Frankie abused his friendship with Vaughters by suckering him into an Internet chat session, which was recorded. No one trusted Andreu after that. In the small world of cycling, not having friends is a sure way to limit opportunities. It was another example of setting bridges behind alight then complaining when they burned down.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

The problem with this place is there are too many haters who only view reality through the bottom of a glass filled with bile. They have created their own mythologies: Armstrong forced people to dope and Saint Betsy suffered her tribulations because she refused to commit perjury at the SCA arbitration. While that will undoubtedly make a nice Lifetime movie, the brave housewife suffers for sticking to her principles, reality is a bit more complex and a bit more venal. Luckily a source close to matter--very close--has reached out to me with the true story.

This what happened.

It was always about money. After finding out that Armstrong was doping, Betsy did not conspire behind the scenes to bring Armstrong to justice in 1996 or 1997 or 1998 or 1999 or 2000. It started when Frankie was let go. The legend that has been built up is that he was "fired" for not doping, but this ignores the basic economics of pro cycling at the time. People are hired to do a job, and if they cannot do it then someone will be found who can. EPO was required to do domestique duties at the Tour. A rider who could barely take care of himself was useless to the team, and Andreu's salary was based on him providing support for the Tour. Andreu made a conscious decision to not be capable of performing his duties. Betsy thinking that the rider ecosystem would change to accomodate Frankie's decision was Alice in Wonderland thinking.

Andreu made things worse by angling for a higher salary. It was an easy mistake to make. Riders on the team read about the team's budget, did some simple math, and realized that they were getting a small portion of the whole. They did not grok that after subtracting Armstrong's substantial salary, administrative costs, and travel and equipment expenditures, there was not a lot left over for the riders. In fact the team was nearly always in financial stress, and Armstrong received a piece of the team when his salary could not be paid.

Still, although Frankie would not be able to help Armstrong to a third win, the team took care of Frankie. He was hired as an assistant director. The salary was lower, of course, and Betsy seethed. As Frankie started his new role with the Postal team, his wife almost immediately began seeking out journalists to harm Armstrong. None were interested in 2001. It took until 2004 for her to find Walsh. This upset those who thought Frankie was their friend only to find out he and his wife were trying to destroy their lives. Action had be taken, just like anyone would to save their own livelihood. Far from being an innocent who only suffered because she told the truth, this was something she brought on herself, an internecine spat driven by the financial stress of opting out of the European pro peloton. The jealousy of watching old teammates prosper as they continued to ride exacerbated an already nasty battle.

In the background were the LeMonds, whose contribution to American cycling had been occluded by the rise of Armstrong. The Andreus were their perfect tool. Willing and well placed among Armtrong's ex-teammates, they could do the dirty work while Greg tried to limit his statements to the press, for which he was getting considerable blowback. Frankie abused his friendship with Vaughters by suckering him into an Internet chat session, which was recorded. No one trusted Andreu after that. In the small world of cycling, not having friends is a sure way to limit opportunities. It was another example of setting bridges behind alight then complaining when they burned down.

BPC is not close to the matter.

 

[Race Radio]

Luckily a source close to matter--very close--has reached out to me with the true story.

Sounds one of Hog's "Sources"

 

[MarkvW]

The problem with this place is there are too many haters who only view reality through the bottom of a glass filled with bile. They have created their own mythologies: Armstrong forced people to dope and Saint Betsy suffered her tribulations because she refused to commit perjury at the SCA arbitration. While that will undoubtedly make a nice Lifetime movie, the brave housewife suffers for sticking to her principles, reality is a bit more complex and a bit more venal. Luckily a source close to matter--very close--has reached out to me with the true story.

This what happened.

It was always about money. After finding out that Armstrong was doping, Betsy did not conspire behind the scenes to bring Armstrong to justice in 1996 or 1997 or 1998 or 1999 or 2000. It started when Frankie was let go. The legend that has been built up is that he was "fired" for not doping, but this ignores the basic economics of pro cycling at the time. People are hired to do a job, and if they cannot do it then someone will be found who can. EPO was required to do domestique duties at the Tour. A rider who could barely take care of himself was useless to the team, and Andreu's salary was based on him providing support for the Tour. Andreu made a conscious decision to not be capable of performing his duties. Betsy thinking that the rider ecosystem would change to accomodate Frankie's decision was Alice in Wonderland thinking.

Andreu made things worse by angling for a higher salary. It was an easy mistake to make. Riders on the team read about the team's budget, did some simple math, and realized that they were getting a small portion of the whole. They did not grok that after subtracting Armstrong's substantial salary, administrative costs, and travel and equipment expenditures, there was not a lot left over for the riders. In fact the team was nearly always in financial stress, and Armstrong received a piece of the team when his salary could not be paid.

Still, although Frankie would not be able to help Armstrong to a third win, the team took care of Frankie. He was hired as an assistant director. The salary was lower, of course, and Betsy seethed. As Frankie started his new role with the Postal team, his wife almost immediately began seeking out journalists to harm Armstrong. None were interested in 2001. It took until 2004 for her to find Walsh. This upset those who thought Frankie was their friend only to find out he and his wife were trying to destroy their lives. Action had be taken, just like anyone would to save their own livelihood. Far from being an innocent who only suffered because she told the truth, this was something she brought on herself, an internecine spat driven by the financial stress of opting out of the European pro peloton. The jealousy of watching old teammates prosper as they continued to ride exacerbated an already nasty battle.

In the background were the LeMonds, whose contribution to American cycling had been occluded by the rise of Armstrong. The Andreus were their perfect tool. Willing and well placed among Armtrong's ex-teammates, they could do the dirty work while Greg tried to limit his statements to the press, for which he was getting considerable blowback. Frankie abused his friendship with Vaughters by suckering him into an Internet chat session, which was recorded. No one trusted Andreu after that. In the small world of cycling, not having friends is a sure way to limit opportunities. It was another example of setting bridges behind alight then complaining when they burned down.

As far as I know, everything you've written is consistent with the known facts. It will be interesting to see whether your post is responded to in a substantive way (or just trolled). It certainly challenges the Race Radio promulgated gospel that many here accept.

I don't see how any of this mitigates Armstrong's behavior, though. There are simply too many snitches saying the same things about the Postal team. Armstrong's still a central figure in a big doping conspiracy.