Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[MarkvW]

Sounds one of Hog's "Sources"

Can you rebut any fact Brodeal has asserted with attributed facts of your own? Something other than unsupported statements or loaded questions? Seriously. I'd really like to know...

Otherwise, the narrative you have put out is just as unsupported as Brodeal's.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Armstrong forced people to dope

People are hired to do a job, and if they cannot do it then someone will be found who can. EPO was required to do domestique duties at the Tour. A rider who could barely take care of himself was useless to the team,

Lance, you forced riders to choose between doping or leaving. At times your team even delivered the dope when necessary. You forced riders to dope, or leave. If you want to argue semantics, do it in another thread.

The jealousy of watching old teammates prosper

And participate in unconditional uncontrolled human experimentation orchestrated by Lance and his business partners. Which, as posted by you above, was forced upon the riders.

In the background were the LeMonds, whose contribution to American cycling had been occluded by the rise of Armstrong.

Lance, this isn't true either.

The Andreus were their perfect tool. Willing and well placed among Armtrong's ex-teammates, they could do the dirty work

Yes, that Betsy is very compliant. And Frankie, who admitted to his own use in an environment where exactly the opposite was the norm shows a level of compliance any ruthless overlord needs. We ALL know Lemond to be a ruthless overlord, right??

And yet, so many unanswered questions remain about the whole hospital room episode for you answer honestly Lance. The only problem being, I think judicial/law enforcement might have a great deal of interest in even a little bit of honesty from you.

while Greg tried to limit his statements to the press, for which he was getting considerable blowback.

I don't know about that. Greg was a pretty consistent media source before and after you put him on the enemies list.

No one trusted Andreu after that. In the small world of cycling, not having friends is a sure way to limit opportunities. It was another example of setting bridges behind alight then complaining when they burned down.

Which is why he's managing a continental team now???

Again, not sure what's happened, but this is even further from BroDeal normal. These claims don't work. It's all over Lance. If it's a personal thing and this isn't Lance posting again, best wishes on whatever is going on getting resolved.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

As far as I know, everything you've written is consistent with the known facts. It will be interesting to see whether your post is responded to in a substantive way (or just trolled). It certainly challenges the Race Radio promulgated gospel that many here accept.

I don't see how any of this mitigates Armstrong's behavior, though. There are simply too many snitches saying the same things about the Postal team. Armstrong's still a central figure in a big doping conspiracy.

Hi Mark,
Which facts were there, I didn't see any.
I would be more than happy to reply in a substantive way when you find some.

 

[Netserk]

Hi Mark,
Which facts were there, I didn't see any.
I would be more than happy to reply in a substantive way when you find some.

Honestly ?

 

[mewmewmew13]

Lance, you forced riders to choose between doping or leaving. At times your team even delivered the dope when necessary. You forced riders to dope, or leave. If you want to argue semantics, do it in another thread.


And participate in unconditional uncontrolled human experimentation orchestrated by Lance and his business partners. Which, as posted by you above, was forced upon the riders.



Lance, this isn't true either.




Yes, that Betsy is very compliant. And Frankie, who admitted to his own use in an environment where exactly the opposite was the norm shows a level of compliance any ruthless overlord needs. We ALL know Lemond to be a ruthless overlord, right??

And yet, so many unanswered questions remain about the whole hospital room episode for you answer honestly Lance. The only problem being, I think judicial/law enforcement might have a great deal of interest in even a little bit of honesty from you.


I don't know about that. Greg was a pretty consistent media source before and after you put him on the enemies list.




Which is why he's managing a continental team now???

Again, not sure what's happened, but this is even further from BroDeal normal. These claims don't work. It's all over Lance. If it's a personal thing and this isn't Lance posting again, best wishes on whatever is going on getting resolved.

I think you summed it all up pretty well DW….

but Bro..if you disagree w RR and say that he and/or his sources are wrong or one-sided..then how can you say "a source close to matter--very close--has reached out to me with the true story."

 

[mewmewmew13]

Honestly ?

Is this one of your 'contributions of substance'?

I thought it was acceptable to give one's opinion...

 

[Race Radio]

Can you rebut any fact Brodeal has asserted with attributed facts of your own? Something other than unsupported statements or loaded questions? Seriously. I'd really like to know...

Otherwise, the narrative you have put out is just as unsupported as Brodeal's.

What "facts" are you referring to? BroDeal's post is filled with the same nonsense that has been refuted over and over when it was posted by various Wonderboy trolls over the years.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Honestly ?

If you wish to point out the facts - then point them out.

Maybe facts in Swedish translates to something else.

 

[Netserk]

If you wish to point out the facts - then point them out.

Maybe facts in Swedish translates to something else.

I mean it's fair to say that a lot of it ain't facts, but to say that you can't see a single one. :O

Example of a single (although meaningless) fact in the post: "He was hired as an assistant director"

So were you honest or not?

 

[ChewbaccaD]

The problem with this place is there are too many haters who only view reality through the bottom of a glass filled with bile. They have created their own mythologies: Armstrong forced people to dope and Saint Betsy suffered her tribulations because she refused to commit perjury at the SCA arbitration. While that will undoubtedly make a nice Lifetime movie, the brave housewife suffers for sticking to her principles, reality is a bit more complex and a bit more venal. Luckily a source close to matter--very close--has reached out to me with the true story.

This what happened.

It was always about money. After finding out that Armstrong was doping, Betsy did not conspire behind the scenes to bring Armstrong to justice in 1996 or 1997 or 1998 or 1999 or 2000. It started when Frankie was let go. The legend that has been built up is that he was "fired" for not doping, but this ignores the basic economics of pro cycling at the time. People are hired to do a job, and if they cannot do it then someone will be found who can. EPO was required to do domestique duties at the Tour. A rider who could barely take care of himself was useless to the team, and Andreu's salary was based on him providing support for the Tour. Andreu made a conscious decision to not be capable of performing his duties. Betsy thinking that the rider ecosystem would change to accomodate Frankie's decision was Alice in Wonderland thinking.

Andreu made things worse by angling for a higher salary. It was an easy mistake to make. Riders on the team read about the team's budget, did some simple math, and realized that they were getting a small portion of the whole. They did not grok that after subtracting Armstrong's substantial salary, administrative costs, and travel and equipment expenditures, there was not a lot left over for the riders. In fact the team was nearly always in financial stress, and Armstrong received a piece of the team when his salary could not be paid.

Still, although Frankie would not be able to help Armstrong to a third win, the team took care of Frankie. He was hired as an assistant director. The salary was lower, of course, and Betsy seethed. As Frankie started his new role with the Postal team, his wife almost immediately began seeking out journalists to harm Armstrong. None were interested in 2001. It took until 2004 for her to find Walsh. This upset those who thought Frankie was their friend only to find out he and his wife were trying to destroy their lives. Action had be taken, just like anyone would to save their own livelihood. Far from being an innocent who only suffered because she told the truth, this was something she brought on herself, an internecine spat driven by the financial stress of opting out of the European pro peloton. The jealousy of watching old teammates prosper as they continued to ride exacerbated an already nasty battle.

In the background were the LeMonds, whose contribution to American cycling had been occluded by the rise of Armstrong. The Andreus were their perfect tool. Willing and well placed among Armtrong's ex-teammates, they could do the dirty work while Greg tried to limit his statements to the press, for which he was getting considerable blowback. Frankie abused his friendship with Vaughters by suckering him into an Internet chat session, which was recorded. No one trusted Andreu after that. In the small world of cycling, not having friends is a sure way to limit opportunities. It was another example of setting bridges behind alight then complaining when they burned down.

We get it, you don't like Betsy. Your "unhinged woman" narrative is nothing new, but it certainly takes a more complete form here.

As for any "facts," MarkvW once again shows just how incompetent he is when it relates to legal terms. There may be some "facts" like the fact that the internet exists, but what really exists is supposition. Now, there is nothing wrong with that, as this entire section of the forum owes it's existence to supposition...much of which turned out to be valid mind you, but supposition none the less.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I mean it's fair to say that a lot of it ain't facts, but to say that you can't see a single one. :O

Example of a single (although meaningless) fact in the post: "He was hired as an assistant director"

So were you honest or not?

Yes, I was - as this was the relevant part that I highlighted to Mark.

As far as I know, everything you've written is consistent with the known facts.

Now if you want to step up and show them all, then show them.

 

[BroDeal]

Lance, you forced riders to choose between doping or leaving. At times your team even delivered the dope when necessary. You forced riders to dope, or leave. If you want to argue semantics, do it in another thread.

I think we can all agree that this risible portrayal of the situation needs to be put to rest. Armstrong was not loitering outside elementary schools, hooking children by handing out free shots of EPO. There were hundreds upon hundreds of riders in the pro ranks who were already using EPO. There were many times that number one tier below who were already using and available for hire. No one had to force anyone to take EPO.

Riders took drugs because that is what was required to be a pro. If a rider was not willing to be professional about his career then it was easy to find someone else who would. Team managers hire and retain those who perform. In a sport awash with blood doping, the riders who keep their contracts are those who dope. That is the simple logic of performance. Every single team manager made the exact same decisions as Bruyneel. To think that pro teams would waste their limited payroll on dead weight is ludicrous.

The rats that USADA lined up fell back on the same sham excuse to absolve themselves of blame that is used by nearly all who are caught. Instead of sacking up, taking responsibility, and embracing the systemic nature of doping in cycling, they blamed someone else. Landis is one of the few who was honest enough to tell it like it was: That the decision to dope was made because he had worked long and hard, doping was required to race at the level he wanted to race at, and given the same situation, he would do it again. Instead we get the sniveling sorry tour, where riders cry crocodile tears about how they gave in to temptation and are now ashamed. After they tear up for the media, they go home to their big houses bought with the money from years of keeping pro contracts by doping.

 

[BroDeal]

If you wish to point out the facts - then point them out.

I can only report what my source tells me. I expect breaking news soon.

 

[BroDeal]

As far as I know, everything you've written is consistent with the known facts. It will be interesting to see whether your post is responded to in a substantive way (or just trolled). It certainly challenges the Race Radio promulgated gospel that many here accept.

Of course they won't. The haters are too wrapped up in claiming that Armstrong is Asmodeus and everyone who opposes him is a version of Ghandi or Mother Teresa. Shades of gray are not allowed.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I think we can all agree that this risible portrayal of the situation needs to be put to rest. Armstrong was not loitering outside elementary schools, hooking children by handing out free shots of EPO. There were hundreds upon hundreds of riders in the pro ranks who were already using EPO. There were many times that number one tier below who were already using and available for hire. No one had to force anyone to take EPO.

Riders took drugs because that is what was required to be a pro. If a rider was not willing to be professional about his career then it was easy to find someone else who would. Team managers hire and retain those who perform. In a sport awash with blood doping, the riders who keep their contracts are those who dope. That is the simple logic of performance. Every single team manager made the exact same decisions as Bruyneel. To think that pro teams would waste their limited payroll on dead weight is ludicrous.

The rats that USADA lined up fell back on the same sham excuse to absolve themselves of blame that is used by nearly all who are caught. Instead of sacking up, taking responsibility, and embracing the systemic nature of doping in cycling, they blamed someone else. Landis is one of the few who was honest enough to tell it as it was: That the decision to dope was made because he had worked long and hard, doping was required to race at the level he wanted to race at, and given the same situation, he would do it again. Instead we get the sniveling sorry tour, where riders cry crocodile tears about how they gave in to temptation and are now ashamed.

Lets see a quick search -
Frankie Andreu - "It was internal pressure--it came from myself".
Jonathan Vaugthers - I chose to lie over killing my dream. I chose to dope.
George Hincapie - Early in my professional career, it became clear to me that, given the widespread use of performance enhancing drugs by cyclists at the top of the profession, it was not possible to compete at the highest level without them. I deeply regret that choice and sincerely apologize to my family, teammates and fans.

One thing that the 'rats' did chose - was when it came to stop the lying, they decided to stop.
One didn't - and he chose to fight on and he lost. He got what he deserved.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Of course they won't. The haters are too wrapped up in claiming that Armstrong is Asmodeus and everyone who opposes him is a version of Ghandi or Mother Teresa. Shades of gray are not allowed.

You can do the hater thing - its cute.

But, if you're so bored and want to play this game - then you better bring better points.

 

[veganrob]

Damiano Machiavelli

 

[Granville57]

The problem with this place is there are too many haters who only view reality through the bottom of a glass filled with bile.

Dude. Not a cool visual. Not cool at all. Please, next time, more humor, less...um..."bile."

In the background were the LeMonds, whose contribution to American cycling had been occluded by the rise of Armstrong.

OK, I admit it. I had to look up "occluded."

Armstrong was not loitering outside elementary schools, hooking children by handing out free shots of EPO.

Of course there's no way to prove that. Perhaps that exactly what he should've been doing though, that way those kids could pass the EPO along to Cancer Kids who could've actually put it to better use than winning a bicycle race.

My point is: I don't see how any of this makes Lance less of a complete and total a$$hole. The one question that no one—from Oprah, to Benson, to Tilford—seems to be screaming in Lance's face is: What about all the cancer kids you lied to, and how do you justify using, all of things, EPO to win bicycle races, when that very product is used in the fight against cancer?

Because as far as I'm concerned, everything else in this saga is mostly meaningless BS. Was Lance treated unfairly by USADA? Who f'cking cares? The system is broken and the sport is a joke, if we really want to get down to brass tacks here. So if a broken and corrupt system ends up screwing up the career and legacy of Lance Armstrong, am I supposed to feel some sense of outrage about it? I'm not here to fix the world, and I'm certainly not here to fix pro cycling. If in all this sordid mess, Armstrong gets the short end of the stick? Oh well. Karma is a b!tch.

Landis is one of the few who was honest enough to tell it like it was: That the decision to dope was made because he had worked long and hard, doping was required to race at the level he wanted to race at, and given the same situation, he would do it again. Instead we get the sniveling sorry tour, where riders cry crocodile tears about how they gave in to temptation and are now ashamed.

With the exception of Zabriskie and maybe Vande Velde, I seem to recall that many of the riders adopted a line more similar to Floyd. They had worked so hard, they weren't prepared to throw it all away, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah.
[Edit]
I just realized that Dr. Mas already covered this point quite well here

Lets see a quick search

Of course they won't. The haters are too wrapped up in claiming that Armstrong is Asmodeus...

Again, I freely admit it. I had to look that one up too.

...and everyone who opposes him is a version of Ghandi or Mother Teresa.

Those two, I am familiar with.

I can only report what my source tells me.  I expect breaking news soon.

All this, just when I thought this thread had lost all the fun. I'm gettin' popcorn for the next few pages.

 

[Scott SoCal]

I can only report what my source tells me. I expect breaking news soon.

Well, it is Tuesday.

 

[Granville57]

Well, it is Tuesday.

That, right there, was worth the price of admission.

 

[BroDeal]

Lets see a quick search - ...

Window dressing. While drowning in an ocean of sobs and insincere regrets, they occasionally have come to the surface to deny they are making excuses so they don't look so pathetic. Those riders are not standing up to assert that USADA's portrayal of riders being forced to dope is a distortion, that the same hiring and contract extension dynamic existed throughout the sport.

There is a huge difference between the picture Landis portrayed of himself, his motivations, and incentives and the maelstrom of chicanery those riders have engaged in. Ironically, Landis is the one who lost everything and would have the most believable reason to say he regretted his decisions. Instead it is those who gained the most who would have us believe are the most apologetic.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Window dressing. While drowning in an ocean of sobs and insincere regrets, they occasionally have come to the surface to deny they are making excuses so they don't look so pathetic. Those riders are not standing up to assert that USADA's portrayal of riders being forced to dope is a distortion, that the same hiring and contract extension dynamic existed throughout the sport.

There is a huge difference between the picture Landis portrayed of himself, his motivations, and incentives and the maelstrom of chicanery those riders have engaged in. Ironically, Landis the the one who lost everything and would have the most believable reason to say he regretted his decisions. Instead it is those who gained the most who would have us believe are the most apologetic.

Landis - I like him.
You don't want to mention the other guy anymore? Smart move.

 

[Race Radio]

I can only report what my source tells me. I expect breaking news soon.

George is going to apologize for smearing Frankie?

 

[MarkvW]

George is going to apologize for smearing Frankie?

(1) How did George smear Frankie?
(2) What is your source?
(3) Why is your representation of the Andreu-Armstrong conflict more reliable than Brodeal's representation.

 

[Race Radio]

(1) How did George smear Frankie?
(2) What is your source?
(3) Why is your representation of the Andreu-Armstrong conflict more reliable than Brodeal's representation.

I like my credibility