Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[DirtyWorks]

Now, by USADA allowing big George's lie to gain roots, he can spin out the next lie, as so eloquently described by Granville. "I never saw drugs until 95, I was too busy watching all those pigs take off.

Reading through the affidavits, one gets a clue that they aren't exactly true. We have riders claiming they stopped doping and getting great results, whistling past the graveyard on both the UCI and USAC's role, and more.

BroDeal, let's argue a "innocent George" for a minute.

Was he dialing the phone and accidentally got the writer from the Detroit Free Press, struck up a conversation, and the writer knows who Hincapie was?
Some writer says, "I'm going to write a story about side characters in a sport few in the U.S. follow. I'll call George."
George wakes up one morning in his castle and says, "I need to give an interview about a terribly sensitive topic that I got out of Scott free. Yup."

I'm no lawyer, but Maxiton's last post seems a likely Wonderboy tactic.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

A central contention of the qui tam case is that Armstrong was ringleader of doping on the team - it's primary originator and proponent. If it can be established in the press that doping on the team preceded Armstrong, and moreover that its main proponent was Frankie - a key witness against Armstrong - won't that have the effect of greatly strengthening the Armstrong side, thus diluting the case against him (as well as any federal cases that might follow)?

Interesting, but I am not sure that entirely makes sense.

The qui tam is that the team violated the terms of contract between Tailwind & USPS not to use PEDs - why LA is on the hook on this is not that he was a ringleader or even user, but that he was an actual owner of the team.

 

[Race Radio]

A central contention of the qui tam case is that Armstrong was ringleader of doping on the team - it's primary originator and proponent. If it can be established in the press that doping on the team preceded Armstrong, and moreover that its main proponent was Frankie - a key witness against Armstrong - won't that have the effect of greatly strengthening the Armstrong side, thus diluting the case against him (as well as any federal cases that might follow)?

This is not correct. Doping on the team existed prior to Lance arriving but this has little to do with the case

The core of the Qui Tam case is unjust enrichment. Here is the last version of the complaint
http://www.scribd.com/doc/137774762/United-States-v-Tailwind-Sports-Lance-Armstrong

It is focused around the key stakeholders of the USPS team, Armstrong, Stapleton, Knaggs, Weisel, and Bruyneel, deliberately misled USPS in public, private statements as well as legal documents. They did this in order to to enrich themselves. Their key actions happened after Frankie retired.

Lance's efforts to smear Frankie are motivated by revenge, pure and simple. Paint Frankie as a pusher, an equal participant as he and George. Pretend Betsy was in on the deal.

After years of similar nonsense most can see through the smoke and mirrors, while others here just use it to cause chaos

 

[BroDeal]

So I repeat, why now? Why is George airing his grievances at this time? For that matter, why come out with it at all? George has received his sanction, so has everyone else. What’s to be gained by this?

Why does it matter that it comes out now? Is Hincapie supposed to keep quiet because the truth about what happened at Motorola does not fit the nice story of good guys and bad guys that people have constructed? They would have us believe that Armstrong ordered everyone to use EPO so they had to use it. But Hincapie was living with three other riders, one of whom was already using EPO, and they discussed EPO use amongst themselves. They were also talking with other riders in the peloton while it became progressively more difficult to hold on during races. It is a reasonable conclusion that Armstrong's opinion was just one factor of many. Hincapie has confirmed this.

Does he really think he or LA will look better if the awful truth comes out about some others? Doesn’t this smack of kindergarten ranting, he did worse than me? Is George really dumb enough to think he will look better if Frankie looks worse? Is LA dumb enough to think in the same way?

A fuller exposure of the endemic nature of doping will make all those caught look better. RR is stuck on Frankie, Frankie, Frankie instead of the systemic problem. Hincapie relating his own experience, which necessarily involves those he rode with, is just an concrete example of the pressures and motivations that led to the decisions he made and, by extension, the decisions others in his situation made. The ultrasensitives here want to parse everything said, looking for a goring of their sacred cow.

Beyond that if Hincapie feels that his erstwhile teammate is taking unwarranted blame then why should he not speak out? The same people who have been whinging about how people stood by and did not say anything are now whinging about people talking.

 

[Maxiton]

Interesting, but I am not sure that entirely makes sense.

The qui tam is that the team violated the terms of contract between Tailwind & USPS not to use PEDs - why LA is on the hook on this is not that he was a ringleader or even user, but that he was an actual owner of the team.

This is not correct. Doping on the team existed prior to Lance arriving but this has little to do with the case

The core of the Qui Tam case is unjust enrichment. Here is the last version of the complaint
http://www.scribd.com/doc/137774762/United-States-v-Tailwind-Sports-Lance-Armstrong

It is focused around the key stakeholders of the USPS team, Armstrong, Stapleton, Knaggs, Weisel, and Bruyneel, deliberately misled USPS in public, private statements as well as legal documents. They did this in order to to enrich themselves. Their key actions happened after Frankie retired.

Lance's efforts to smear Frankie are motivated by revenge, pure and simple. Paint Frankie as a pusher, an equal participant as he and George. Pretend Betsy was in on the deal.

After years of similar nonsense most can see through the smoke and mirrors, while others here just use it to cause chaos

Point taken, but doesn't this pertain to motivation? In other words, if doping was prevalent on the team prior to Armstrong, then it might be said by the qui tam defendants that they were motivated not by greed, but merely by the desire to carry on business as usual.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Why does it matter that it comes out now? Is Hincapie supposed to keep quiet because the truth about what happened at Motorola does not fit the nice story of good guys and bad guys that people have constructed? They would have us believe that Armstrong ordered everyone to use EPO so they had to use it. But Hincapie was living with three other riders, one of whom was already using EPO, and they discussed EPO use amongst themselves. They were also talking with other riders in the peloton while it became progressively more difficult to hold on during races. It is a reasonable conclusion that Armstrong's opinion was just one factor of many. Hincapie has confirmed this.



A fuller exposure of the endemic nature of doping will make all those caught look better. RR is stuck on Frankie, Frankie, Frankie instead of the systemic problem. Hincapie relating his own experience, which necessarily involves those he rode with, is just an concrete example of the pressures and motivations that led to the decisions he made and, by extension, the decisions others in his situation made. The ultrasensitives here want to parse everything said, looking for a goring of their sacred cow.

Beyond that if Hincapie feels that his erstwhile teammate is taking unwarranted blame then why should he not speak out? The same people who have been whinging about how people stood by and did not say anything are now whinging about people talking.

Who are these 'same people'? Sounds like you are making stuff up again.

I would like to hear GHs story, all of it, not just the bits that involve Frankies fridge.
Which of course naturally brings us back to the "why now" "why Frankie" questions, but you want to ignore that.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Why does it matter that it comes out now? Is Hincapie supposed to keep quiet because the truth about what happened at Motorola does not fit the nice story of good guys and bad guys that people have constructed? They would have us believe that Armstrong ordered everyone to use EPO so they had to use it. But Hincapie was living with three other riders, one of whom was already using EPO, and they discussed EPO use amongst themselves. They were also talking with other riders in the peloton while it became progressively more difficult to hold on during races. It is a reasonable conclusion that Armstrong's opinion was just one factor of many. Hincapie has confirmed this.

A fuller exposure of the endemic nature of doping will make all those caught look better. RR is stuck on Frankie, Frankie, Frankie instead of the systemic problem. Hincapie relating his own experience, which necessarily involves those he rode with, is just an concrete example of the pressures and motivations that led to the decisions he made and, by extension, the decisions others in his situation made. The ultrasensitives here want to parse everything said, looking for a goring of their sacred cow.

Beyond that if Hincapie feels that his erstwhile teammate is taking unwarranted blame then why should he not speak out? The same people who have been whinging about how people stood by and did not say anything are now whinging about people talking.

That flushing sound you hear is your credibility.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Who are these 'same people'? Sounds like you are making stuff up again.

I would like to hear GHs story, all of it, not just the bits that involve Frankies fridge.
Which of course naturally brings us back to the "why now" "why Frankie" questions, but you want to ignore that.

Great post Doc.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Oops, forgot to add: Ribbit

 

[mewmewmew13]

who are these 'same people'? Sounds like you are making stuff up again.

I would like to hear ghs story, all of it, not just the bits that involve frankies fridge.
Which of course naturally brings us back to the "why now" "why frankie" questions, but you want to ignore that.

bingo
………..

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Point taken, but doesn't this pertain to motivation? In other words, if doping was prevalent on the team prior to Armstrong, then it might be said by the qui tam defendants that they were motivated not by greed, but merely by the desire to carry on business as usual.

They may try and say that, but motivation has nothing to do with the case.
And USPS only came on board as a sponsor for Tailwind (Disson Furst at the time) in 1996.

 

[Race Radio]

Why does it matter that it comes out now? Is Hincapie supposed to keep quiet because the truth about what happened at Motorola does not fit the nice story of good guys and bad guys that people have constructed? They would have us believe that Armstrong ordered everyone to use EPO so they had to use it. But Hincapie was living with three other riders, one of whom was already using EPO, and they discussed EPO use amongst themselves. They were also talking with other riders in the peloton while it became progressively more difficult to hold on during races. It is a reasonable conclusion that Armstrong's opinion was just one factor of many. Hincapie has confirmed this.


A fuller exposure of the endemic nature of doping will make all those caught look better. RR is stuck on Frankie, Frankie, Frankie instead of the systemic problem. Hincapie relating his own experience, which necessarily involves those he rode with, is just an concrete example of the pressures and motivations that led to the decisions he made and, by extension, the decisions others in his situation made. The ultrasensitives here want to parse everything said, looking for a goring of their sacred cow.

Beyond that if Hincapie feels that his erstwhile teammate is taking unwarranted blame then why should he not speak out? The same people who have been whinging about how people stood by and did not say anything are now whinging about people talking.

It is good you finally agree with me and have stopped this "Lying" nonsense.

As I have pointed out many times George made it clear in his affidavit that there were many elements that led him to dope. In the last few months his message has changed. It is Frankie, Frankie, Frankie. His limited discussions about doping focus on one guy, Frankie. He does not talk to Cyclingnews about doping, he talks to Frankie's hometown newspaper. He does not talk about Ferrari, Marti, Bruyneel, Celya, or Carmichel, he talks about Frankie.

You are welcome to pretend this is all just a coincidence, that Lance did not get the DFP reporter to call George, that there is no agenda.....but don't expect anyone else to buy that narrative, we have seen it all before.

 

[International Observer]

These "why now?" comments.

Hincapie has only been allowed to talk openly about doping for about a year. His short remarks on Frankie in The Armstrong Lie were probably filmed almost a year ago themselves, or at least a good six months. In other words, Hincapie has merely finally been able to tell the truth of his experience, that's "why now". And nobody from the era is rushing out to say he was wrong, which I think is rather telling.

I feel sorry for Hincapie. Why don't we look at it from his point of view? It must have been very frustrating to see Betsy waging this bitter campaign against them when they knew Frankie himself was one of the boys. Must be liberating for him to finally be able to mention it, even if he knows it's not popular.

I hope Hincapie and others go on being able to tell the truth, free from the hatchet mob who want to silence anybody who doesn't toe the line. I think we're really seeing a split now between the more stalkerish agenda driven people and those who loathed the doping but want to be honest about the culture and context. It's becoming clearer everyday. Betsy's campaign at the moment is to ensure Lance loses further millions to SCA, and that is probably going to happen. Then she will be cheering on the ridiculous whilster blower suit which nobody has the courage to openly defend. That's her agenda, and RR's too. Good for them. But as serious people we need to be honest about the history of the sport and not merely see it all as a opportunity to ruin one guy.

 

[MarkvW]

A central contention of the qui tam case is that Armstrong was ringleader of doping on the team - it's primary originator and proponent. If it can be established in the press that doping on the team preceded Armstrong, and moreover that its main proponent was Frankie - a key witness against Armstrong - won't that have the effect of greatly strengthening the Armstrong side, thus diluting the case against him (as well as any federal cases that might follow)?

I don't think so. If Lance is proven to be just a little helper in the false claims to get US Gov't money, then he's just as liable to the US for those false claims as if he were a ringleader.

What happens in the press isn't likely to impact the conduct of the Armstrong trial. The judge is going to try to weed out potential jurors with preconceived notions.

If Lance argues at his trial "I wasn't the ringleader, we all did it," then Lance is admitting liability. Other than statute of limitations (which IMO is a loser), I have no idea what other defenses Lance is going to try at trial. He is surely not going to be able to argue his stupid "you got what you bargained for" defense to the jury (it is not the law).

Every lawyer in the universe would tell Lance to STFU before his trial. Lance is still talking. I don't think we're seeing anything like strategy from Lance's side. We're just seeing stupid...like we've repeatedly seen from Lance for the last few years.

 

[International Observer]

Excellent post. Hincapie and Carmichael are doing a gran fondo in California in April: http://bottegagranfondo.com/special-guests/#thecyclist Any wonder George won't say boo about Carmichael? Look at Carmichael's bio - not one mention of his association (frontman for Ferrari) with armstrong. No one's pressed George on anything. I know he's sweating it out. Funny how wonderboy claimed he had no idea why George talked to that reporter. (http://stevetilford.com/2014/02/17/my-call-with-lance/) How did George even know she was writing an article?

That is more evidence of Hincapie's independence since Lance and Carmichael have not been on speaking terms for quite awhile now.

 

[Race Radio]

Point taken, but doesn't this pertain to motivation? In other words, if doping was prevalent on the team prior to Armstrong, then it might be said by the qui tam defendants that they were motivated not by greed, but merely by the desire to carry on business as usual.

The Qui Tam case is not about what motivated them to dope but what motivated them to lie to USPS and not fulfill their contractual obligations.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

These "why now?" comments.

Hincapie has only been allowed to talk openly about doping for about a year. His short remarks on Frankie in The Armstrong Lie were probably filmed almost a year ago themselves, or at least a good six months. In other words, Hincapie has merely finally been able to tell the truth of his experience, that's "why now". And nobody from the era is rushing out to say he was wrong, which I think is rather telling.

I feel sorry for Hincapie. Why don't we look at it from his point of view? It must have been very frustrating to see Betsy waging this bitter campaign against them when they knew Frankie himself was one of the boys. Must be liberating for him to finally be able to mention it, even if he knows it's not popular.

I hope Hincapie and others go on being able to tell the truth, free from the hatchet mob who want to silence anybody who doesn't toe the line. I think we're really seeing a split now between the more stalkerish agenda driven people and those who loathed the doping but want to be honest about the culture and context. It's becoming clearer everyday. Betsy's campaign at the moment is to ensure Lance loses further millions to SCA, and that is probably going to happen. Then she will be cheering on the ridiculous whilster blower suit which nobody has the courage to openly defend. That's her agenda, and RR's too. Good for them. But as serious people we need to be honest about the history of the sport and not merely see it all as a opportunity to ruin one guy.

This is a great point - why the attempt to ruin Frankie.
I think we can all agree, its called a smear.

 

[International Observer]

The more you think about these why now comments, more silly they are. Why would Hincapie not want to talk about the one part of the story that people don't know bout, to explain the team's frustration with the Andreu's? Why instead would he want to talk about a lot of people who never showed this hypocrisy?

The guy is not going to be silenced. He's writing a book too. It be interesting to see if everybody from the team continues to back him up by not coming out to say he was wrong. Hincapie's credibility is good, Betsy provides us with yet another piece on information on his independence. He has always stayed out of Lance's battles, he didn't join radioshack, he testified against Lance, everybody who knows him say he's a straight shooter. Whereas the critics have a clear agenda.

 

[MarkvW]

This is a great point - why the attempt to ruin Frankie.
I think we can all agree, its called a smear.

I think we can all agree that Frankie and George have different versions of what happened. I think that we can also agree that there's a good chance that both Frankie and George will be deposed under oath in the course of the USPS litigation.

Things might be a little clearer then.

 

[mewmewmew13]

These "why now?" comments.

Hincapie has only been allowed to talk openly about doping for about a year. His short remarks on Frankie in The Armstrong Lie were probably filmed almost a year ago themselves, or at least a good six months. In other words, Hincapie has merely finally been able to tell the truth of his experience, that's "why now". And nobody from the era is rushing out to say he was wrong, which I think is rather telling.

I feel sorry for Hincapie. Why don't we look at it from his point of view? It must have been very frustrating to see Betsy waging this bitter campaign against them when they knew Frankie himself was one of the boys. Must be liberating for him to finally be able to mention it, even if he knows it's not popular.

I hope Hincapie and others go on being able to tell the truth, free from the hatchet mob who want to silence anybody who doesn't toe the line. I think we're really seeing a split now between the more stalkerish agenda driven people and those who loathed the doping but want to be honest about the culture and context. It's becoming clearer everyday. Betsy's campaign at the moment is to ensure Lance loses further millions to SCA, and that is probably going to happen. Then she will be cheering on the ridiculous whilster blower suit which nobody has the courage to openly defend. That's her agenda, and RR's too. Good for them. But as serious people we need to be honest about the history of the sport and not merely see it all as a opportunity to ruin one guy.

VERY good!
You've done well with grasping the familiar soundbites. Except it's usually accepted that 'pitchfork mob' is more commonly seen in this usage.

It's refreshing to see that a new poster like you does not have an 'agenda'.

 

[Berzin]

Beyond that if Hincapie feels that his erstwhile teammate is taking unwarranted blame then why should he not speak out.

Because he's lying, that's why. Hincapie was doping as a junior. I've said this a million times. And Armstrong was the leading catalyst in the doping rings at both at Motorola and Postal/Disco. You must have missed that part, and the testimony of all the others.

The same people who have been whinging about how people stood by and did not say anything are now whinging about people talking.

No, they are whinging because Hincapie is lying about almost everything. It's too late for Armstrong to pull out the victim card when he did everything in his power to thwart the investigation, and when that didn't work he remained uncooperative.

Armstrong was offered his day in front of the USADA. He refused, and was sanctioned accordingly. Neither Frankie nor Betsy Andreu had anything to do with that.

Now he's teamed up with Nice Guy Georgie to double-team Frankie in an almost irrelevant newspaper because no reputable news outlet will give these two an audience.

I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. The fact that you've adopted your current position speaks of an agenda that has run its' course on this thread.

 

[Hugh Januss]

That flushing sound you hear is your credibility.

His credibility would be better if he would just bang on about Franky being weak and letting his interfering shrew of a wife ruin his career, instead of trying to make out that Franky was just like all the others because he used EPO too. He stopped, they did not, that is a difference.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

The more you think about these why now comments, more silly they are. Why would Hincapie not want to talk about the one part of the story that people don't know bout, to explain the team's frustration with the Andreu's? Why instead would he want to talk about a lot of people who never showed this hypocrisy?

The guy is not going to be silenced. He's writing a book too. It be interesting to see if everybody from the team continues to back him up by not coming out to say he was wrong. Hincapie's credibility is good, whereas the critics have a clear agenda.

You're talking about "Big George" Hincapie. Most Tours ever. Probably the world's most famous 'domestique'.

And yet, he chooses a small domestic American paper to start his "wanting to talk" moment? Not a major international cycling publication, not even a domestic cycling publication?

Not normal.

Your credibility is not good, and it's looking like you have an agenda...

 

[International Observer]

VERY good!
You've done well with grasping the familiar soundbites. Except it's usually accepted that 'pitchfork mob' is more commonly seen in this usage.

It's refreshing to see that a new poster like you does not have an 'agenda'.

My agenda is exposing the agenda. I do smell blood on this. They're not even really denying what Hincapie said, but instead making it into a big conspiracy smear and arguing over the team "pusher", when they know all the riders don't see it like that.

We're seeing a split between the more moderator sensible people and the stalker loons who spend their days reading legal documents on SCA.

 

[International Observer]

You're talking about "Big George" Hincapie. Most Tours ever. Probably the world's most famous 'domestique'.

And yet, he chooses a small domestic American paper to start his "wanting to talk" moment? Not a major international cycling publication, not even a domestic cycling publication?

Not normal.

Your credibility is not good, and it's looking like you have an agenda...

But he already talked about it at least six months ago in the Armstrong lie. He's only been allowed to talk openly about this stuff for a year. Its relevant to Betsy's local newspaper which is why they asked him about it.