Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

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May 27, 2012
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Wallace and Gromit said:
Chewie,

The USADA claim per their press release is: "The evidence shows beyond any doubt that the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team ran the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen."

First paragraph of: http://cyclinginvestigation.usada.org/

You'll note there is not time restriction on this. Indeed they include the word "ever". Thus, your claim: "They didn't say that it was even the most professionalized in the history of mankind" is wrong on both counts.

I'm also intrigued that you interpret "...that sport has ever seen" to mean "...that cycling has ever seen".

If the claim had been "...that the sport has ever seen" I'd agree with you, as there is a reference to cycling in the same sentence. But as it's written, the logical interpretation appears to be all sport.

Even more interesting is that in your link about Tygart, the reference to "successful" is no longer there: "Tygart led the investigation into the team-wide U.S. Postal Service Pro-Cycling team doping conspiracy and the Lance Armstrong case, which uncovered the most sophisticated and professionalized doping scheme that sport had ever seen."

I wonder why "successful" is no longer there?

I would think he would have said "that ANY sport has ever seen..." if he meant what you said.

As to the second part, I would suggest again, the qualifying word "uncovered" is the key to how I interpret the quote.

Past that, there is really no way to prove either interpretation. Do with that what you will.
 
May 27, 2012
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eleven said:
are you claiming that the quote is referencing only those schemes that have been uncovered, and only in cycling?

I know you're intelligent enough to read and comprehend what you read, so I will take your question as rhetorical.
 
May 27, 2012
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BroDeal said:
Don't confuse the blind haters with facts. They are too busy making excuses for Tygart's lies by parsing what the meaning of is is.

I don't know if he's as popular as he once was, but the line to the base of Armstrong's a$$ is still pretty long. It's sad to see a once respected poster in that line. Sad. Frowny face.:(
 
May 27, 2012
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MacRoadie said:
Well I sure am glad we blasted the hell out of Tygart's reprehensible and deviously inappropriate use of the word "that".

I guess Lance didn't do it after all.

He's the misunderstood cancer Jesus now. Gonna start his own thing if he can't get the band back together. Gonna be as big as Wings.
 
Nov 8, 2012
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D-Queued said:
Oh, ok. Up to interpretation then. To me that was simply opinion, possibly misguided.

I had thought that stating that people were unequivocally either insane or illiterate was bombastic. My bad.

Dave.

Well, sure. That's bombastic. IMO, so is "Tygart's desire for fame and publicity"...

I didn't really get that from Travis, especially when LA hired the PI's to dig up dirt and the death threats started coming in. Prolly would have been easier to do what everyone else to that point had done and just say, F-it.

Would you settle for magniloquent? :eek:
 
May 27, 2012
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Scott SoCal said:
Kinda funny really....

Travis exaggerated? Yeah, so what?

Travis was bombastic? Yeah, so what?

USADA targeted LA? Yeah, so what?

Even if you come from the BroDeal school of fair play the real question is, so what?



Yep. We are all just being too mean I guess.

Bam!..............
 
May 27, 2012
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D-Queued said:
Oh, ok. Up to interpretation then. To me that was simply opinion, possibly misguided.

I had thought that stating that people were unequivocally either insane or illiterate was bombastic. My bad.

Dave.

I see you love my doggie style.
 
Tygart went bombastically hyperbolic. There's no doubt that he was talking about "sport" in the general, and not the sport of cycling in particular. ChewbaccaD's arguments are worthless on this issue.

Examine the text of the release. I've selected all uses of the term "sport."

October 10, 2012

Today, we are sending the ‘Reasoned Decision’ in the Lance Armstrong case and supporting information to the Union Cycliste International (UCI), the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), and the World Triathlon Corporation (WTC). The evidence shows beyond any doubt that the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team ran the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen.

The evidence of the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team-run scheme is overwhelming and is in excess of 1000 pages, and includes sworn testimony from 26 people, including 15 riders with knowledge of the US Postal Service Team (USPS Team) and its participants’ doping activities. The evidence also includes direct documentary evidence including financial payments, emails, scientific data and laboratory test results that further prove the use, possession and distribution of performance enhancing drugs by Lance Armstrong and confirm the disappointing truth about the deceptive activities of the USPS Team, a team that received tens of millions of American taxpayer dollars in funding.

Together these different categories of eyewitness, documentary, first-hand, scientific, direct and circumstantial evidence reveal conclusive and undeniable proof that brings to the light of day for the first time this systemic, sustained and highly professionalized team-run doping conspiracy. All of the material will be made available later this afternoon on the USADA website at http://www.usada.org.

The USPS Team doping conspiracy was professionally designed to groom and pressure athletes to use dangerous drugs, to evade detection, to ensure its secrecy and ultimately gain an unfair competitive advantage through superior doping practices. A program organized by individuals who thought they were above the rules and who still play a major and active role in sport today.

The evidence demonstrates that the ‘Code of Silence’ of performance enhancing drug use in the sport of cycling has been shattered, but there is more to do. From day one, we always hoped this investigation would bring to a close this troubling chapter in cycling’s history and we hope the sport will use this tragedy to prevent it from ever happening again.

Of course, no one wants to be chained to the past forever, and I would call on the UCI to act on its own recent suggestion for a meaningful Truth and Reconciliation program. While we appreciate the arguments that weigh in favor of and against such a program, we believe that allowing individuals like the riders mentioned today to come forward and acknowledge the truth about their past doping may be the only way to truly dismantle the remaining system that allowed this “EPO and Blood Doping Era” to flourish. Hopefully, the sport can unshackle itself from the past, and once and for all continue to move forward to a better future.

Our mission is to protect clean athletes by preserving the integrity of competition not only for today’s athletes but also the athletes of tomorrow. We have heard from many athletes who have faced an unfair dilemma — dope, or don’t compete at the highest levels of the sport. Many of them abandoned their dreams and left sport because they refused to endanger their health and participate in doping. That is a tragic choice no athlete should have to make.

It took tremendous courage for the riders on the USPS Team and others to come forward and speak truthfully. It is not easy to admit your mistakes and accept your punishment. But that is what these riders have done for the good of the sport, and for the young riders who hope to one day reach their dreams without using dangerous drugs or methods.

These eleven (11) teammates of Lance Armstrong, in alphabetical order, are Frankie Andreu, Michael Barry, Tom Danielson, Tyler Hamilton, George Hincapie, Floyd Landis, Levi Leipheimer, Stephen Swart, Christian Vande Velde, Jonathan Vaughters and David Zabriskie.

The riders who participated in the USPS Team doping conspiracy and truthfully assisted have been courageous in making the choice to stop perpetuating the sporting fraud, and they have suffered greatly. In addition to the public revelations, the active riders have been suspended and disqualified appropriately in line with the rules. In some part, it would have been easier for them if it all would just go away; however, they love the sport, and they want to help young athletes have hope that they are not put in the position they were -- to face the reality that in order to climb to the heights of their sport they had to sink to the depths of dangerous cheating.

I have personally talked with and heard these athletes’ stories and firmly believe that, collectively, these athletes, if forgiven and embraced, have a chance to leave a legacy far greater for the good of the sport than anything they ever did on a bike.

Lance Armstrong was given the same opportunity to come forward and be part of the solution. He rejected it.

Instead he exercised his legal right not to contest the evidence and knowingly accepted the imposition of a ban from recognized competition for life and disqualification of his competitive results from 1998 forward. The entire factual and legal basis on the outcome in his case and the other six active riders’ cases will be provided in the materials made available online later today. Two other members of the USPS Team, Dr. Michele Ferrari and Dr. Garcia del Moral, also received lifetime bans for perpetrating this doping conspiracy.

Three other members of the USPS Team have chosen to contest the charges and take their cases to arbitration: Johan Bruyneel, the team director; Dr. Pedro Celaya, a team doctor; and Jose “Pepe” Marti, the team trainer. These three individuals will receive a full hearing before independent judges, where they will have the opportunity to present and confront the evidence, cross-examine witnesses and testify under oath in a public proceeding.

From day one in this case, as in every potential case, the USADA Board of Directors and professional staff did the job we are mandated to do for clean athletes and the integrity of sport. We focused solely on finding the truth without being influenced by celebrity or non-celebrity, threats, personal attacks or political pressure because that is what clean athletes deserve and demand.”

It's obvious that when Tygart is talking about "the sport" he's talking about cycling and when he's talking about "sport," he's talking about sport, in general.

It's not like it's a big deal or anything, though. He just went over the top (and forgot about East Germany).
 
Nov 23, 2013
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MonkeyFace said:
Sophisticated and successful. Hardly. He paid off the UCI to sweep positives under the rug and tested positive for cortisone in 1999. If you want to talk about successful programs, how about Mapei and Quickstep? Nothing out of those teams. Working with Ferrari, Chris Carmicheal as personal coach, using activgen, every decent rider confessing or getting busted, yeah they did a masterful job staying under the radar. If you want to talk about someone knowing how to stay under the radar, talk about Kloden. That guy has ninja doping skills.

True but he wasn't successful anywhere close to the degree LA was...that is until LA got busted.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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After reviewing the recent ping-pong match going on in this thread, I honestly can't even tell who is on whose side. :D

Honestly. I can't. :confused:

But I have no problem parsing the words of Tygart, because it has been batted around so much that it would be nice to, once for all, set the record straight. But I've little confidence at this point that we're going to arrive at any sort of consensus on the matter.

OK then...

MarkvW said:
Examine the text of the release. I've selected all uses of the term "sport."
Could you include the link? Thanks.

The evidence shows beyond any doubt that the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team ran the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen.
And herein lies the obvious point of contention, but underlying words (for our purposes here) only further thickens the fog.

If spoken, one could easily say "...the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen."

Or

"...the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen."

Conversely, as has been pointed out, Tygart could've expressed the former as "...the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that that sport has ever seen."

But he didn't. But he also did not underline the word sport in the original (that is not imply that I've failed to understand why Mark did in his example).


But I'm still not convinced either way. And isn't that why we have the internet? :D

Seriously, I don't think it's a pointless debate. But it may be pointless for us continue with it unless we can get confirmation from Travis himself.

Does it particularly matter very much one way or the other?
As far as I can tell, no. It would appear to be only useful if one is looking to attack or defend Travis Tygart. But as it stands, I just don't see it as a slam dunk for either side.


(Yes, I'm bored at the moment.)
 
MarkvW said:
Tygart went bombastically hyperbolic. There's no doubt that he was talking about "sport" in the general, and not the sport of cycling in particular. ChewbaccaD's arguments are worthless on this issue.

Examine the text of the release. I've selected all uses of the term "sport."



It's obvious that when Tygart is talking about "the sport" he's talking about cycling and when he's talking about "sport," he's talking about sport, in general.

You can spin it any way you'd like, but examining it objectively it's far from obvious and definitely not conclusive either way. Try as you might to build a win out of this, it's a house of cards built on a foundation of ambiguity.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Granville57 said:
And herein lies the obvious point of contention, but underlying words (for our purposes here) only further thickens the fog.

If spoken, one could easily say "...the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen."

Or

"...the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen."


Agreed - I was having exactly the same thoughts (including the use of [that that] vs [that the] vs [that] vs [the] sport). The tone of the spoken word (emphasising either "that" or "sport") would have lent credence to either side.

The legacy Dr Maserati left behind is honored, surely, with the length, breadth and vociferousness of this vortex.
 
Weapons of @ss Destruction said:
You can spin it any way you'd like, but examining it objectively it's far from obvious and definitely not conclusive either way. Try as you might to build a win out of this, it's a house of cards built on a foundation of ambiguity.

It's not ambiguous. Tygart is a lawyer and he knew exactly what he was saying. But this really is no big deal and nothing to quibble about further.
 
D-Queued said:
Hmm, we have a 15 year Crown Prosecutor, come Masters in Psychology offering some pretty harsh criticism of folks around here.

Mockery, sarcasm, and irony become you, because everything you say lacks substance. The poverty of any comment you make, is only exceeded by the ridiculous nature of your rhetoric. You are a purveyor of fluff, of huff and puff, and of frivolous condescending verbiage.

Someone posts some outrageously stupid comment and I am not supposed to be critical of that on a public thread? And all you can do is mock that because I have some relevant education and experience?

"There are counter-arguments." Really? Brilliant response! I am overwhelmed by your vacuous counter arguments. What are they? Why do you bother to post if you are incapable of contributing to the issue as opposed engaging in sarcasm and irony?
 
RobbieCanuck said:
Mockery, sarcasm, and irony become you, because everything you say lacks substance. The poverty of any comment you make, is only exceeded by the ridiculous nature of your rhetoric. You are a purveyor of fluff, of huff and puff, and of frivolous condescending verbiage.

Someone posts some outrageously stupid comment and I am not supposed to be critical of that on a public thread? And all you can do is mock that because I have some relevant education and experience?

"There are counter-arguments." Really? Brilliant response! I am overwhelmed by your vacuous counter arguments. What are they? Why do you bother to post if you are incapable of contributing to the issue as opposed engaging in sarcasm and irony?

Did the bar just close?

Dave.
 
May 27, 2012
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MarkvW said:
Tygart went bombastically hyperbolic. There's no doubt that he was talking about "sport" in the general, and not the sport of cycling in particular. ChewbaccaD's arguments are worthless on this issue.

Examine the text of the release. I've selected all uses of the term "sport."



It's obvious that when Tygart is talking about "the sport" he's talking about cycling and when he's talking about "sport," he's talking about sport, in general.

It's not like it's a big deal or anything, though. He just went over the top (and forgot about East Germany).


Weapons of @ss Destruction said:
You can spin it any way you'd like, but examining it objectively it's far from obvious and definitely not conclusive either way. Try as you might to build a win out of this, it's a house of cards built on a foundation of ambiguity.

MarkvW said:
It's not ambiguous. Tygart is a lawyer and he knew exactly what he was saying. But this really is no big deal and nothing to quibble about further.

Something I would expect to be lost on an intertubes lawyer who can't get even the most basic legal arguments correct, time and time again. My arguments might be "worthless" on this issue, but his have proven worthless on any...

But lets give MarkvW his win on this one. He did a great job bolding and making his point. It does seem to me that the ambiguity tilts in favor of his position. Lets not lose sight of the fact that it is an ambiguity regardless, because as has been pointed out, it was written and not spoken in this context. Even the guy in the lower 25% of his law school class could recognize it as such. That ambiguities are interpreted one way or another eventually is also part of the game. So, per usual, even when MarkvW wins, he's still a loser...poor MarkvW. But as he says, it isn't really worth discussing anymore.
 
May 27, 2012
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MarkvW said:
Tygart went bombastically hyperbolic. There's no doubt that he was talking about "sport" in the general, and not the sport of cycling in particular. ChewbaccaD's arguments are worthless on this issue.

Examine the text of the release. I've selected all uses of the term "sport."



It's obvious that when Tygart is talking about "the sport" he's talking about cycling and when he's talking about "sport," he's talking about sport, in general.

It's not like it's a big deal or anything, though. He just went over the top (and forgot about East Germany).

When you're right, you're right, and I think you're right. In the context of your quoted material, it does appear it was "that SPORT," and not "THAT sport." I took the quote from a more limited context, which did not provide the context your quoted material provided. My bad for not researching more.

I stand corrected.
 
Jul 25, 2014
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MarkvW said:
Tygart went bombastically hyperbolic. There's no doubt that he was talking about "sport" in the general, and not the sport of cycling in particular. ChewbaccaD's arguments are worthless on this issue.

Examine the text of the release. I've selected all uses of the term "sport."



It's obvious that when Tygart is talking about "the sport" he's talking about cycling and when he's talking about "sport," he's talking about sport, in general.

It's not like it's a big deal or anything, though. He just went over the top (and forgot about East Germany).

Granted he did. Mind you though he'd seen a Federal investigation get closed down, lawsuits from LA and machinations through political lobbying to get USADA's funding cut. No wonder he had an axe to grind!
 
ChewbaccaD said:
When you're right, you're right, and I think you're right. In the context of your quoted material, it does appear it was "that SPORT," and not "THAT sport." I took the quote from a more limited context, which did not provide the context your quoted material provided. My bad for not researching more.

I stand corrected.

Excellent work all of you! I think we are finally arriving at the definitive conclusion of this essential subject. This will certainly overshadow the discovery of the Higgs boson in importance to mankind.