Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

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Aug 9, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
Clarification for the casual reader, he revealed doping in the WSJ, was treated as hostile by the sport's actors prior to what later became the USADA's reasoned decision. The courage it took to do that, in the environment of the time, was enormous.

I entirely forgot he was actually the athlete representative at USA Cycling at the time.
Thom and Steve Johsnon got right onto cleaning up the sport after the WSJ article.... Oh wait, Steve and Thom did exactly nothing.:mad:

and they are still there!...saying nothing :mad:
 
Feb 10, 2010
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Mar 13, 2009
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MarkvW said:
You can fault Frankie for being a whore for the professional cycling business and his refusal to speak out more against Armstrong's (and others') doping. That's a fairly debatable subject.

But you can't fault the man's honesty. He was subpoenaed. He responded. He was asked questions under oath and nobody has suggested that he did anything other than answer those questions completely and truthfully. Just because he doesn't go full-on Vaughters (and get attacked all over the place here) is no reason to attack his truthfulness.
actually, i have always been in Frankie Andreu's corner. Betsy would confirm.

I was just offering the devils advocate position, and it may have been just clumsy counsel interrogation that i was really critiquing, not Frankie. I thought my following posts clarified this
 
Mar 13, 2009
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DirtyWorks said:
The evolution explanation does not occur over a few scant years. Humans just don't change that fast. Do you realize the equipment excuse was used for a very long time, right?

There's some vaguely valid points in there, but some really bad explanations too.
think a physiologist studied the 100m sprint, and said the human body reached the zenith achievement in the 80s. So p'raps so new tracks, and sprinter flats, but they would be nigh intangible improvement
 
Oct 16, 2010
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10701972_10152801392233982_1533022773227095576_n.jpg
 
May 27, 2010
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pmcg76, why are you plagiarizing Lance, and his ridiculous explanations, without reference?

Are you making a joke?

And, to reinforce the point, Lance's explanations are absolutely ridiculous and further confirm a) that he is a liar, using such nonsense to hide his doping practice and b) that, as noted up-thread, he isn't very smart.

BTW we long ago debunked all this nonsense.

Unless, of course, you can prove that cyclists now train by pedaling backwards instead of forwards and that such a 180 degree change in training practice has yielded material, NOT marginal, gains.

Jeremiah said:
pmcg76 said:
Well if you want to claim there has been no change in bike weights, race tactics or even training techniques since the 1980s, go right ahead. Live in denial all you want. I am sure your hero Ross Tucker would disagree.

Instead of trying to throw some lame deflection, how about actually addressing the points I raised.

For the record I don't believe the times from the 80s would be near the current level but then Quintana's time for Alpe d'Huez is almost 2 mins slower than Armstong's best(non-TT) and over a minute slower than Landis. Whether Quintana is doped or not, I think he is one of the greatest climbers of all time yet you look and see guys like Levi, Menchov and Kloeden who all went faster up Alpe d'Huez.

Comparing times and watts can be useful, but without context it's pointless and that is where Tucker's analysis(and many others) is lacking.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2008/nov/18/lancearmstrong-cycling-tourdefrance-donaldmcrae

(Inserted NOTE: From an interview with Lance Armstrong)

And did you say why? No1 the human body evolves, training evolves, we improve over time. Duh! Shocker. Two. The suits. The Technology - it's a huge advantage. No3 - the pool. That pool was clearly faster than my neighbourhood swimming pool. Phelps was clearly motivated and all of that stuff makes up for superhuman performances but no one says anything about that. If you go up L'Alpe d'Huez faster than anyone else then it's a case of clearly you've cheated. Another example - 1999 my climbing bike weighed 21 pounds. 2005 - 14 pounds. They make so much of the average speed - this is the fastest tour so clearly they doped. That's an easy thing to say. The tough to thing is to say they repaved every road on the Tour de France this year, they took out traffic islands, they rode deep dish aerodynamic where the bike is 10% faster. Hello? You're gonna ride faster. All that adds to higher speed.

LOL
 
May 19, 2012
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DirtyWorks said:
The evolution explanation does not occur over a few scant years. Humans just don't change that fast. Do you realize the equipment excuse was used for a very long time, right?

There's some vaguely valid points in there, but some really bad explanations too.

I didn't make the LOL big enough?

The equipment excuse is ridiculous.

The evolution excuse? Maybe the median improvement due to evolution from the 1980's to the 2000's is a millionth of a percent?

LOL!:eek:

ps, Wheels can make a bike 10% faster? I did not know that! LOL With a motor attached? LOL
 
May 27, 2010
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Jeremiah said:
I didn't make the LOL big enough?

The equipment excuse is ridiculous.

The evolution excuse? Maybe the median improvement due to evolution from the 1980's to the 2000's is a millionth of a percent?

LOL!:eek:

If we are discussing evolutionary adaptations, please explain how many generations of fruit flies we are talking about here?

Dave.
 
Aug 21, 2014
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elizab said:
The only reason this is even an issue is because people are making it into something it's not. They could've taken Travis' nationality and made it into an issue just because they have a beef with him. Being Christian is an easy target for people who hate religion.

i think you have it backwards. being atheist is an easy target for christians....especially in the most christian conservative town in the US, Colorado springs.
 
Feb 10, 2010
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Jeremiah said:
I didn't make the LOL big enough?

The equipment excuse is ridiculous.

The evolution excuse? Maybe the median improvement due to evolution from the 1980's to the 2000's is a millionth of a percent?

LOL!:eek:

ps, Wheels can make a bike 10% faster? I did not know that! LOL With a motor attached? LOL

Ok, I didn't understand it was mockery. My mistake.
 
May 27, 2010
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Jeremiah said:
...

ps, Wheels can make a bike 10% faster? I did not know that! LOL With a motor attached? LOL

Hey, you added the PS later!

Yes, wheels can make a bicycle faster.

Bicycle and rider, though, aren't quite the same as a bicycle alone.

Aside from which, disc wheels, tri-spokes and even deep rim wheels have been around for a while. They can hardly account for speed differences in the last 20 years. And, when it comes to climbing, benefits are pretty marginal if they are even used.

Even Obree's work is 20 years old now.

And, we can go back at least 30 years to Kyle & Burke's work on aerodynamics (Kyle, C.R. & Burke, E.R. (1984) Improving the racing bicycle) for a quantification of the obvious. "rider position has the largest contribution to aerodynamic drag"*. Earlier work on cycling aerodynamics goes back to at least 1956.

Anyone suggesting that the Armstrong era participants and post-Armstrong era participants somehow invented aerodynamic positioning is either naive, a fool or promoting a purposefully misleading agenda.

* In their 1984 paper, Kyle and Burke observed a three tier hierarchy; rider position is the most important contributor to cycling resistance, then bicycle geometry including wheels, and finally rolling resistance. All of which should be pretty self-evident for anyone that has ridden a bicycle.

Dave.
 
Aug 9, 2010
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bodhizaffa said:
i think you have it backwards. being atheist is an easy target for christians....especially in the most christian conservative town in the US, Colorado springs.

You missed Betsy's point. There shouldn't be ANY easy target as an excuse for someone doing their job as it is supposed to be done.

Travis did what he was paid to do in his position of catching dopers in sport.
It matters not what anyone's race, religion, town etc etc...only what the person was guilty of and we all know the whole story now of Lance and his position as ringleader...ad nauseum.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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D-Queued said:
And, we can go back at least 30 years to Kyle & Burke's work on aerodynamics (Kyle, C.R. & Burke, E.R. (1984) Improving the racing bicycle) for a quantification of the obvious. "rider position has the largest contribution to aerodynamic drag"*. Earlier work on cycling aerodynamics goes back to at least 1956.

At least. :eek:

tumblr_nb9n2t7f4D1tl183ro2_r1_500.jpg


Check out that direct drive. No chain. :cool:
 
Feb 10, 2010
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Granville57 said:
At least. :eek:

tumblr_nb9n2t7f4D1tl183ro2_r1_500.jpg


Check out that direct drive. No chain. :cool:

FYI: That's Major Taylor. He's an entirely appropriate contrast to the "Overcome adversity" BS that the subject of this thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Taylor

"It is my thought that clean living and a strict observance of the golden rule of true sportsmanship are foundation stones without which a championship structure cannot be built."
"Life is too short for any man to hold bitterness in his heart."
“A real honest-to-goodness champion can always win on the merits."
 
Dec 7, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
FYI: That's Major Taylor.

Dude, I truly hope that's not for my benefit. :D

If anything, I was expecting some grief for referencing, yet again, my go-to guy. :cool:

The remainder of your post is entirely correct. :)
 
Jul 11, 2013
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Paul Dimeo on Armstrong

A subtract from Paul Dimeo's article on Armstrong:

The reason for targeting Armstrong seems to be that he was the most successful cyclist of the period. Yet, that seems an arbitrary and unfair criterion:[/B] why not pursue accusations against cyclists who came 2nd, 9th or 15th in Grand Tours? We could develop that further and argue that anti- doping investigations should really be universal rather than individual – all cyclists should be treated with the same energetic focus, not just the one that is successful, unpopular and making a return to the sport. Researcher Kathryn Henne recently claimed there was a certain disproportionate focus on Armstrong:
Having ethnographically studied the anti-doping regime since 2007, I can attest that nearly every anti-doping official I have met has gone on record saying that ‘catching’ Armstrong would be the anti-doping movement’s crowning achievement.
That is not the only way in which Armstrong has been treated differently. In all other cases where a doping accusation is upheld, there is some substantial evidence. The most common form of evidence is a positive test which is confirmed by testing a ‘B’ sample, and which is scientifically validated by an accredited laboratory. As noted already, there is now scope to retrospectively test samples as far back as eight years. A second type of evidence is a confession, which is most common in situations where a police investigation is being conducted. If an athlete is asked by a journalist or a sports authority if they doped, they can deny without any punishments. However, if they deny in a police investigation and are later found guilty they can be prosecuted for perjury, as happened with Marion Jones. The Scottish cyclist David Millar denied doping under interrogation by the French police for almost 48 hours before eventually giving in.
Confessions are hard to achieve and need to be produced in very specific circumstances. Until the Lance Armstrong case, no athlete was publicly accused by a sports authority unless there was either a positive test or a confession to support the accusation. In these circumstances, USADA took a significant risk in collecting witness statements to pursue a case for which there was little legal precedence. Their officials must have done so because of a specific determination to catch Armstrong. Given the lack of ‘normal’ evidence, they could have left the matter alone, but instead devoted significant resources and took significant policy risks in order to achieve their goal. However, they would not have had the details and the confidence had not the US Federal Inquiry into the financing of the US Postal Team’s doping culture not begun and subsequently collapsed. The Inquiry had the power to subpoena individual cyclists, and after evidence was collected from several team members, the suspicions surrounding Armstrong were becoming public. The momentum was gathering but the Inquiry came to a halt because there was insufficient evidence to pursue a criminal case. At this stage, there was not enough supporting evidence: no positive test, no confession and no possibility of a criminal court case, USADA and WADA could have abandoned the accusation on the basis of lack of evidence, but instead the focused determination to catch Armstrong inspired more investigative work. As mentioned above, Kathryn Henne found that anti-doping staff working on professional cycling had consistently expressed a desire to catch Armstrong. Journalists felt frustrated that the fragments of evidence did not amount to a convincing case against him. However, armed with the Federal Inquiry’s evidence, USADA decided to keep pursuing Armstrong. It seems that their CEO Travis Tygart was not willing to let the seven-time Tour de France winner off the hook. It is not clear if this was a personal vendetta or witch-hunt as Armstrong claimed, but certainly it seems a dogged pursuit which did not have to be undertaken. However, we should not be tempted to look solely at individuals (such as Tygart and Walsh) when in fact the wider development processes that enabled anti-doping policy were central to the unfolding outcomes of this affair. There may have been some other influencing factors that pressurised USADA. One was that Armstrong was competing in other sports – mountain biking, triathlon and marathons – where the competitors and spectators did not tolerate suspicions of doping that had been tolerated in professional cycling. Perhaps by venturing into other areas, Armstrong unwittingly helped those who wanted to see him removed from all sports. If he had not returned in 2005 to a cleaner cycling culture and not competed in cleaner sports, he might have simply been seen as the best cyclist of a certain time period when most top cyclists were dopers and he was never caught so no accusations could stick. Instead, his desire to prove himself as an athlete in the broadest sense contributed to his eventual downfall. The fact he made enemies of important people and that USADA was determined to prove its capabilities, and that doping increasingly became a public interest story, were the other factors involved. We now know that he was doping through most of his career, but history would have told a different story had not these specific factors that – in combination with the macro- and micro-level developments already discussed – tightened the net around Armstrong.

Apologise for the hard read, and this probably has little interest to the experts.
I'am only posting with an informative aim..
But feel free to correct of course :)
More to come if interest is there...

No link.. PDF only..
 
Mar 13, 2009
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mrhender said:
A subtract from Paul Dimeo's article on Armstrong:



Apologise for the hard read, and this probably has little interest to the experts.
I'am only posting with an informative aim..
But feel free to correct of course :)
More to come if interest is there...

No link.. PDF only..
quite a few errors in that piece by Dimeo, but there will only be "clinic" types that pick it up. Might be a paid plant, or Armstrong's spinners, whoever he is using now, got these themes and talking points seeding with Dimeo
 
Jul 11, 2013
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blackcat said:
quite a few errors in that piece by Dimeo, but there will only be "clinic" types that pick it up. Might be a paid plant, or Armstrong's spinners, whoever he is using now, got these themes and talking points seeding with Dimeo

Dimeo is closely related and works a lot with apologist Verner Møller...
However the "falsified" details does not imply dirty work to me..
 
May 27, 2010
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blackcat said:
quite a few errors in that piece by Dimeo, but there will only be "clinic" types that pick it up. Might be a paid plant, or Armstrong's spinners, whoever he is using now, got these themes and talking points seeding with Dimeo

Quite a few.

With statements like this: "It is not clear if this was a personal vendetta or witch-hunt..." it easily passed the threshold into the world of spin.

It might be that only clinic types will pick up on the errors, but there were books written on Armstrong's doping long before USADA took up the case.
Lots of non-clinic types read those. Lots of non-clinic types read Damien Ressiot's article. Lots of non clinic types wrote "Lance Dopé" on the streets of France.

The multiple suggestions that there was a lack of evidence is hysterical. There are 202 pages worth of evidence in the Reasoned Decision. None of which came, as ignorantly alleged, from the Federal Inquiry.

Dave.
 
Aug 7, 2010
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D-Queued said:
Quite a few.

With statements like this: "It is not clear if this was a personal vendetta or witch-hunt..." it easily passed the threshold into the world of spin.

It might be that only clinic types will pick up on the errors, but there were books written on Armstrong's doping long before USADA took up the case.
Lots of non-clinic types read those. Lots of non-clinic types read Damien Ressiot's article. Lots of non clinic types wrote "Lance Dopé" on the streets of France.

The multiple suggestions that there was a lack of evidence is hysterical. There are 202 pages worth of evidence in the Reasoned Decision. None of which came, as ignorantly alleged, from the Federal Inquiry.

Dave.

Lance owes him some money for re-purposing his wine cellar into a hermetically sealed settlement document archive.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Paul Dimeo is comically pathetic.

It is easy for anyone here to easily dismantle his nonsense but those in the ivory tower, with limited understanding of sport, consume it without questioning it. This has developed a lucrative revenue stream for Paul. In the last couple years he has been given over $100,000 in "Grants" to write papers that regurgitate the same tired talking points.

It should come as no surprise that one of these grants included 2 years at, wait for it, University of Texas, Austin :rolleyes: