Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[AcademyCC]

He doesn't - he gets others to do it for him

Do you not think he is the one steering the ship though? Uses other people to then carry out his orders?

 

[Velodude]

Ha ha. You take this very seriously dont you?

Who else present backs up the andreus testimony then?

Im nearly certain ive read the word 'hate' but as im not prepared to read the book again tonight ill accept your point, i cant prove it. Even still i think your clutching at straws, my point was simply that they dont get on!

If the 1996 hospital room revelation of history of doping by LA has to be proved by the Feds expect Livestrong to be in the mix for paying $1.5m to the hospital immediately LA became aware of the Andreus' testimonies. Coincidentally, after this transaction the hospital could not identify the doctors present

The doctors in the room will be identified to come out of hiding as a $1.5m bribe to a hospital in 2005 is not going to save the doctors from perjury charges..

 

[ChrisE]

The idea of a federal doping prosecution is pretty ridiculous. They didn't prosecute Tammy Thomas, Barry Bonds, or Roger Clemens for doping. There's no chance Lance is going to get prosecuted for doping. Like Tyler says: Lance wasn't doing anything the other Posties weren't doing. If there is a federal criminal prosecution involving doping, it's got to be a fraud prosecution.

I doubt Armstrong would face perjury, because he'll almost surely take the 5th when called before the GJ.

If the Tailwind principals all take the 5th, it is going to be very hard for the feds to prove a conspiracy. The feds need a weak link among the tailwind management. No sign of one at this time. Bet Lance and Weasel have rewarded them lavishly?

Going on nineteen months now . . .

Wow then let's just close up shop. Everybody takes the 5th and it is all good. What a deal.

I would expect if somebody took the 5th, the feds would offer immunity for the lesser players and then toss them in jail if they refused.

 

[MarkvW]

Wow then let's just close up shop. Everybody takes the 5th and it is all good. What a deal.

I would expect if somebody took the 5th, the feds would offer immunity for the lesser players and then toss them in jail if they refused.

Didn't say impossible. Said hard. Conspiracy requires agreement. Without one of the agreeing parties, or a wiretap, it can be hard to prove that agreement.

Immunity's already been given to Tyler and George. Who, among the Tailwind leadership would the feds give immunity to?

 

[ChrisE]

Didn't say impossible. Said hard. Conspiracy requires agreement. Without one of the agreeing parties, or a wiretap, it can be hard to prove that agreement.

Immunity's already been given to Tyler and George. Who, among the Tailwind leadership would the feds give immunity to?

We don't know that answer. Does their leadership need to be the ones to squeal? That is not necessary IMO.

Are you privy to the details of the investigation, what the actual charges will be, and who the actual defendants will be? I didn't think so.

You get enough little fish to squeal with immunity then the bigger fish are in a bind. How many people would like to sit in a jail cell instead of just telling the truth?

 

[Velodude]

Didn't say impossible. Said hard. Conspiracy requires agreement. Without one of the agreeing parties, or a wiretap, it can be hard to prove that agreement.

Immunity's already been given to Tyler and George. Who, among the Tailwind leadership would the feds give immunity to?

Counselor, why do the Feds have to prove a conspiracy relating to the directors and shareholders of Tailwind Sports?

 

[MarkvW]

We don't know that answer. Does their leadership need to be the ones to squeal? That is not necessary IMO.

Are you privy to the details of the investigation, what the actual charges will be, and who the actual defendants will be? I didn't think so.

You get enough little fish to squeal with immunity then the bigger fish are in a bind. How many people would like to sit in a jail cell instead of just telling the truth?

The leadership are the people who interacted with USPS. The interaction with USPS would be the basis for any fraud charge. The telling of lies to get USPS money.

You couldn't convict the president of GM of fraud if you can't prove he knew of the fraud.

 

[MarkvW]

Counselor, why do the Feds have to prove a conspiracy relating to the directors and shareholders of Tailwind Sports?

You should probably answer that question.

 

[ChrisE]

The leadership are the people who interacted with USPS. The interaction with USPS would be the basis for any fraud charge. The telling of lies to get USPS money.

You couldn't convict the president of GM of fraud if you can't prove he knew of the fraud.

If all of the underlings at GM says the CEO knew of fraud, then he would be indicted for fraud. I'm not sure where I am losing you with this concept of immunity for testimony to get bigger fish.

Again, you don't know the scope or the ultimate direction of this investigation. To say "they will all take the fifth" and the result will be a dead end is assinine IMO.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Counselor, why do the Feds have to prove a conspiracy relating to the directors and shareholders of Tailwind Sports?

They just do, ok.

 

[MarkvW]

If all of the underlings at GM says the CEO knew of fraud, then he would be indicted for fraud. I'm not sure where I am losing you with this concept of immunity for testimony to get bigger fish.

Again, you don't know the scope or the ultimate direction of this investigation. To say "they will all take the fifth" and the result will be a dead end is assinine IMO.

It is less about "saying," than it is about "knowing." I'd bet only a few Tailwind people were involved in the USPS sponsorship negotiations. I'm sure the little fish were out of the loop.

The crime happened if one of the agents of Tailwind represented that the team was clean while knowing it was dirty, or maybe if an agent was manipulated into unknowingly representing that the the team was clean when it was really dirty.

If the Tailwind principals say that they all believed the team was clean, and there is no proof otherwise, then the Tailwind principals walk. I've yet to see any indication that Armstrong played any role in the contract negotiations with USPS.

So, if the Tailwind principals stand firm, then it seems to me the feds have to link Armstrong to the people who negotiated the contract. That's the hard part, as I see it.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It is less about "saying," than it is about "knowing." I'd bet only a few Tailwind people were involved in the USPS sponsorship negotiations. I'm sure the little fish were out of the loop.

The crime happened if one of the agents of Tailwind represented that the team was clean while knowing it was dirty, or maybe if an agent was manipulated into unknowingly representing that the the team was clean when it was really dirty.

If the Tailwind principals say that they all believed the team was clean, and there is no proof otherwise, then the Tailwind principals walk. I've yet to see any indication that Armstrong played any role in the contract neegotiations with USPS.

So, if the Tailwind principals stand firm, then it seems to me the feds have to link Armstrong to the people who negotiated the contract. That's the hard part, as I see it.

Ah -you do realize this is being investigated by the FDA?
You do know what that stands for right?
(Hint; its not Fraudulent Deals Agency)

 

[MarkvW]

Ah -you do realize this is being investigated by the FDA?
You do know what that stands for right?
(Hint; its not Fraudulent Deals Agency)

"This" is being investigated . . . .?

I wasn't talking about "this," I was talking about some difficulties of proving fraud with Tailwind related to doping at USPS.

I doubt the FDA is going to get the Attorney General to prosecute bike racers for doping years ago in a foreign country. In an election year?

Maybe if Lance leads them to a distributor (à la BALCO) . . .then I could see a prosecution. Perjury, maybe . . .

 

[Polish]

Going on nineteen months now . . .

Yes, 19+ months.
And the normal term for a GJ is 12-18 months.
Only under special circumstances will a court grant an extension....

So MarkvW, you have been the voice of reason this last year.
Legal reason.
Never buying into the fantastic claims against Lance.
Not selling and not buying. Just waiting for the facts to come out....

Now I realize you are NOT a fanboy like me.
And it seems you might actually want to see Lance indicted boo.
I realize that.

But I want your analysis here:
Is there a chance the GJ is now done with no indictments against Lance?
And if an extension WAS granted, how can one tell? Is it secret too?

It seems there have been no witnessess called before the GJ this whole year.
At least I have not read about any.

Is it wishful thinking to believe indictments are still coming?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

"This" is being investigated . . . .?

I wasn't talking about "this," I was talking about some difficulties of proving fraud with Tailwind related to doping at USPS.

Ya - you went off on some mad tangent about what someone did or did not say to USPS.

I doubt the FDA is going to get the Attorney General to prosecute bike racers for doping years ago in a foreign country. In an election year?

Maybe if Lance leads them to a distributor (à la BALCO) . . .then I could see a prosecution. Perjury, maybe . . .

I agree - mainly because there is no law for doping.
But you appear to be conveniently missing the purchase of doping products and obtaining those products illegally.

Also - the Attorney General - wow, I had no idea he was involved, this is getting big.

 

[MarkvW]

Yes, 19+ months.
And the normal term for a GJ is 12-18 months.
Only under special circumstances will a court grant an extension....

So MarkvW, you have been the voice of reason this last year.
Legal reason.
Never buying into the fantastic claims against Lance.
Not selling and not buying. Just waiting for the facts to come out....

Now I realize you are NOT a fanboy like me.
And it seems you might actually want to see Lance indicted boo.
I realize that.

But I want your analysis here:
Is there a chance the GJ is now done with no indictments against Lance?
And if an extension WAS granted, how can one tell? Is it secret too?

It seems there have been no witnessess called before the GJ this whole year.
At least I have not read about any.

Is it wishful thinking to believe indictments are still coming?

It's all secret (until it becomes History, perhaps). Nixon's GJ testimony got released twenty-some years later. Won't get released in any of the Posties lifetimes. Super-secret. Should they pack up the GJ and quit, that will be secret too.

Lance might or might not be a target. His doping is certainly at least one focal point of the investigation. We don't even know if Lance has been called before the GJ. Or if Lance has been offered immunity.

The feds weren't after that idiot Tammy Thomas. If she would have snitched Conte off, she'd be practicing law now. Nor were the feds after Barry. If Barry had come clean, he never would have faced a prosecution. So why would the Feds be after Lance? Fraud's the best guess I can come up with for a Lance-centric investigation. All the other threads just lead to the Lance is a sporting doper scenario--something the feds have hitherto shown no interest in prosecuting.

Of course the investigation could have led to other things, like taxes or money laundering, and we shall see . . ..

It is entirely possible that the Feds are after Lance's supplier and that Lance has already admitted to his doping under an immunity agreement. That would explain why Lance was so hyperkinetic over Grand Jury secrecy. But it is also entirely possible that didn't happen.

Indicting Lance would be tough. The 19 month investigation ought to be evidence enough for that.

Anybody who says Lance will be indicted is just about as right as anybody who says Lance won't be indicted. We shouldn't forget that Lance has reasonable doubt on his side--that's a tough burden to overcome. As well as the statute of limitations problems (completely dismissed on this forum).

It's all wait and see.

 

[MarkvW]

Yes, 19+ months.
And the normal term for a GJ is 12-18 months.
Only under special circumstances will a court grant an extension....

So MarkvW, you have been the voice of reason this last year.
Legal reason.
Never buying into the fantastic claims against Lance.
Not selling and not buying. Just waiting for the facts to come out....

Now I realize you are NOT a fanboy like me.
And it seems you might actually want to see Lance indicted boo.
I realize that.

But I want your analysis here:
Is there a chance the GJ is now done with no indictments against Lance?
And if an extension WAS granted, how can one tell? Is it secret too?

It seems there have been no witnessess called before the GJ this whole year.
At least I have not read about any.

Is it wishful thinking to believe indictments are still coming?

Ya - you went off on some mad tangent about what someone did or did not say to USPS.



I agree - mainly because there is no law for doping.
But you appear to be conveniently missing the purchase of doping products and obtaining those products illegally.

Also - the Attorney General - wow, I had no idea he was involved, this is getting big.

The feds don't prosecute heroin purchasers! They're not going to prosecute EPO purchasers! They go for the BIG fish, not the small fry. Lance as a doping product buyer is not going to interest them. But I have no links . . .

If Lance ever gets charged, Holder would review it.

 

[Velodude]

You should probably answer that question.

Interpretation: I have not got a clue. My information and expertise only comes from a legal subscription service

 

[Neworld]

Ok ill try-

What about M. Anderson, Lemond, Vaughters, Zabriskie, Vandervelde... and their sworn testimony?

Wow that's a lot holes to fill. Back to Academia and theoretical metaphysics...the noose is tightening and some people don't like it.

NW

 

[Polish]

the noose is tightening and some people don't like it.

NW

Where do you get this notion that "the noose is tightening"?
Can you give some evidence of the "tightening"?
Recent evidence would be nice.
And don't give me ducks. That is just wishful thinking.
Some people do not like the delay, so they invent ducks.
Ducks on the wall.


If anything, the noose seems loose lol.
The term of the Grand Jury has expired it seems.
Maybe it has been extended? That would be ducky.
But the noose seems loose and some people don't like it.

 

[Race Radio]

Ok ill try-

What about M. Anderson, Lemond, Vaughters, Zabriskie, Vandervelde... and their sworn testimony?

Wow that's a lot holes to fill. Back to Academia and theoretical metaphysics...the noose is tightening and some people don't like it.

NW

And Jogi, Jeff Spencer, Stephanie...... The list of bitter haters is a long one. Even a skilled liar like Fabiani would have trouble keeping a straight face

 

[MarkvW]

Interpretation: I have not got a clue. My information and expertise only comes from a legal subscription service

Thanks for your interpretation.

 

[Random Direction]

"If Lance ever gets charged, Holder would review it. "

From what authority, and with what consequence for Holder?

 

[MarkvW]

"If Lance ever gets charged, Holder would review it. "

From what authority, and with what consequence for Holder?

Eric Holder is the Attorney General of the United States. He's ultimately responsible for all federal criminal prosecutions. A super-high profile case wouldn't be filed without his getting keyed-in beforehand.

No consequence that I can see. It's his job.

 

[Random Direction]

I'm aware of his position of authority, though not on his legal authorities.

Would he have say over whether a case where charges were brought went to prosecution from (a) only a legal perspective; (b) a political perspective; (c) both; (d) neither.

Clearly he would be briefed on what was going forward, but to exercise a political hand over what goes to prosecution could be a different matter.