Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[Race Radio]

A question-my feelings are that the money accredited to Ferrari aren't just about payments for training plans-they must also invlove payment for the procurement of PED's.

It's too much money to be just about payments for one particular aspect of a doping program.

Having said that, what is the likelihood the good doctor rats out the director sportifs and riders he worked with, including Armstrong?

Would he consider this route seeing as there could be massive heat on him?

Will his riders protect him to the bitter end?

What would be the endgame for guys like Bruyneel? He seems to be the odd man out at the moment.

Anything going on with him as far as the investigation is concerned?

The Hog is done and everyone in the sport knows it.

All this talk about a break away league is just that, talk. All the owners and DS' know that in the next few months Johan will be useless. He is toxic, nobody wants to team up with him.

The 15 million Euros in bank transfers points to much more then just rider advice. Most clients payed in cash. This 15 million points to a much large case. I continue to hear about the large scale distribution of PED's. It is clear this has some validity as the investigation in Italy has reached many teams and locations.

As for Ferrari flipping....yes. He is looking at a long stretch in prison. Turning on your biggest customers is one of the best ways to get out of this.

 

[Berzin]

As for Ferrari flipping....yes. He is looking at a long stretch in prison. Turning on your biggest customers is one of the best ways to get out of this.

I'm not going to hold my breath, but to me this is the most important aspect of the investigation.

To finally find out what Armstrong's doping program was and have it made public for the world to see will be what many have been waiting for.

Hearing it from Ferrari directly would put the whole "myth" and everything that went with it to rest. And it will finally absolve those who have attempted to marginalize Floyd Landis for speaking out.

No more wonder boy, no more cancer miracle survivor, no more most talented rider ever. Just a rider lucky enough to have access to the most effective doping program cycling has ever seen, without which he would have remained the barrel-chested, testosterone-infused Fleche Wallone winner he was and nothing more.

 

[Granville57]

...and Nevada City.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

The Hog is done and everyone in the sport knows it.

All this talk about a break away league is just that, talk. All the owners and DS' know that in the next few months Johan will be useless. He is toxic, nobody wants to team up with him.

Which begs the question why is Vaughters so keen to jump into bed with him?

 

[Berzin]

Which begs the question why is Vaughters so keen to jump into bed with him?

I think the cynicism of pro cycling is evident here. Vaughters knows that Bruyneel has power within the pro peloton and he's just hitching his wagon to this guy just in case he winds up winning.

I can't think of any other scenario that would explain his (Vaughter's) decision.

 

[Ferminal]

...and Nevada City.

It was a good win...

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

I think the cynicism of pro cycling is evident here. Vaughters knows that Bruyneel has power within the pro peloton and he's just hitching his wagon to this guy just in case he winds up winning.

I can't think of any other scenario that would explain his (Vaughter's) decision.

Indeed, it goes to show that the whole Garmin clean team routine was nothing more than marketing spin.

Which is also the point that McQuaid made when he accused Vaughters of 'moral grandstanding'

Makes you wonder what Vaughters said at the Grand Jury (JV has implied on twitter that he told all). Why tell all and then jump into bed with one of the people who is likely to be brought down by it all.

 

[Benotti69]

The Hog is done and everyone in the sport knows it.

All this talk about a break away league is just that, talk. All the owners and DS' know that in the next few months Johan will be useless. He is toxic, nobody wants to team up with him.

The 15 million Euros in bank transfers points to much more then just rider advice. Most clients payed in cash. This 15 million points to a much large case. I continue to hear about the large scale distribution of PED's. It is clear this has some validity as the investigation in Italy has reached many teams and locations.

As for Ferrari flipping....yes. He is looking at a long stretch in prison. Turning on your biggest customers is one of the best ways to get out of this.

will he have to spill the beans about non Italians to the Italian authorities or will just need to keep it within the jurisdiction of Italy? or if he has provided PEDs across multiple borders can he be extradited to the relevant countries..

 

[Benotti69]

Indeed, it goes to show that the whole Garmin clean team routine was nothing more than marketing spin.

Which is also the point that McQuaid made when he accused Vaughters of 'moral grandstanding'

Makes you wonder what Vaughters said at the Grand Jury (JV has implied on twitter that he told all). Why tell all and then jump into bed with one of the people who is likely to be brought down by it all.

if there is 2 in the bed and the Feds say roll over, roll over and 1 falls out.....

 

[Oldman]

will he have to spill the beans about non Italians to the Italian authorities or will just need to keep it within the jurisdiction of Italy? or if he has provided PEDs across multiple borders can he be extradited to the relevant countries..

Depending on the overall intent of the investigation he could face charges from many fronts. Trying to figure an end game for the larger investigation vs. specific prosecutions for individual players is complicated and hopefully it will be well coordinated. As Berzin so rightfully laid it out: having LA's program disclosed would go a long way dispelling his myth. Many could live with that justice but, as with Balco; USADA would want to trace the producer sources IMO. At least that should be their mandate. Making an example of high-profile, arrogant athletes sends a message but they need to impact the distribution of controlled drugs.

 

[Benotti69]

[/B]

Depending on the overall intent of the investigation he could face charges from many fronts. Trying to figure an end game for the larger investigation vs. specific prosecutions for individual players is complicated and hopefully it will be well coordinated. As Berzin so rightfully laid it out: having LA's program disclosed would go a long way dispelling his myth. Many could live with that justice but, as with Balco; USADA would want to trace the producer sources IMO. At least that should be their mandate. Making an example of high-profile, arrogant athletes sends a message but they need to impact the distribution of controlled drugs.

i was thinking out loud that the Italians might not care too much about Gunderson if they got enough to 'hang' Ferarri by the short and curlies with evidence of systematic Italians doping programs and their payments for which he never paid tax etc.. Ferarri might be able to get his pension paid now by Gunderson for keeping quiet.

I am hoping they get every dotted 'i' and every crossed 't' that Ferarri ever made going back to the begininng in the late 80's till now.

 

[Race Radio]

Which begs the question why is Vaughters so keen to jump into bed with him?

He isn't. There is zero chance that JV and the Hog would be partners in anything. The entire story of the "breakaway" league has been completely miss-reported

 

[Benotti69]

He isn't. There is zero chance that JV and the Hog would be partners in anything. The entire story of the "breakaway" league has been completely miss-reported

what is the story with JV and a breakaway league then? I was susprised to see him and Hog cosy, but JV does things that seem to be the opposite of what he says so what is his idea? The whole radio upset is BS.

 

[thehog]

if there is 2 in the bed and the Feds say roll over, roll over and 1 falls out.....

http://m.prnewswire.com/news-releas...e-drug-spokesman-robert-weiner-120568759.html

The Feds will be rolling but not rolling over. They are sick to death of the drug trafficking in sport. I have on good authority they have ordered Armstrong to be taken down as an example. What ever it takes.

 

[Race Radio]

what is the story with JV and a breakaway league then? I was susprised to see him and Hog cosy, but JV does things that seem to be the opposite of what he says so what is his idea? The whole radio upset is BS.

The story is an invention. It is not based on anything but assumption by some journalist and posters. There is no way JV and the Hog are partners or are working together.

 

[Oldman]

http://m.prnewswire.com/news-releas...e-drug-spokesman-robert-weiner-120568759.html

The Feds will be rolling but not rolling over. They are sick to death of the drug trafficking in sport. I have on good authority they have ordered Armstrong to be taken down as an example. What ever it takes.

I had not read that statement before but it would confirm my opinion about USADA's role. What is missing is what would have to be a serious amount of pressure by the patent-holding producers of these drugs. Those business interests are concerned mostly about countefeit imitations of their expensively researched products. There must be some speculative data on the amount of the illegal PEDs sold that are not from the original patents.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

He isn't. There is zero chance that JV and the Hog would be partners in anything. The entire story of the "breakaway" league has been completely miss-reported

To echo Benotti - what's the story then? Because to it looks very much like Hog and JV in bed together trying to force some kind of break away league. JV being the more acceptable public face than Hog.

 

[Benotti69]

http://m.prnewswire.com/news-releas...e-drug-spokesman-robert-weiner-120568759.html

The Feds will be rolling but not rolling over. They are sick to death of the drug trafficking in sport. I have on good authority they have ordered Armstrong to be taken down as an example. What ever it takes.

my line was to suggest that the Feds would be rolling over on Hog and then there would only 1 left in the bed, ie JV.

 

[Race Radio]

To echo Benotti - what's the story then? Because to it looks very much like Hog and JV in bed together trying to force some kind of break away league. JV being the more acceptable public face than Hog.

The JV/Hog story is the result of the paranoid mind of McQuaid. The breakaway league is as well. The idea that the team owners/DS' could agree and launch such a project is absurd. Likely McQuaid knows this but it does not fit into his "Greed" narrative.

What has happened is McQuaid's heavy handed actions have united the teams to demand a larger say in the sport. They are a key stakeholder and they are being dictated to like children.

The Hog is radioactive. Nobody is going to team up with him on anything

 

[Benotti69]

The JV/Hog story is the result of the paranoid mind of McQuaid. The breakaway league is as well. The idea that the team owners/DS' could agree and launch such a project is absurd. Likely McQuaid knows this but it does not fit into his "Greed" narrative.

What has happened is McQuaid's heavy handed actions have united the teams to demand a larger say in the sport. They are a key stakeholder and they are being dictated to like children.

The Hog is radioactive. Nobody is going to team up with him on anything

That was my reading on it originally, that most of the DS were tired of McQuaid and were using the radios as a smoke screen to vent there anger.

I hope McQuaid and Heins positions become extremely untenable form this investigation and leads to the DS calling a cease fire on the PEDs, but that is probably wishful thinking.

 

[mewmewmew13]

I was wondering what the status of the relationship between Hog and Lance is as of the last few months ---when LA 'retired' suddenly did he effectively try to back away from his long-time friendship with Johan? Did Fabiani have his client try to distance himself from most unsavory (read 'radioactive') associates?

Damage control for mr gunderson must be a constant struggle, although so far Fabiani doesn't seem to be too much of a genius.

 

[Topangarider]

Some questions about potential civil litigation if LA is ever convicted -

If LA is ever convicted I'm guessing that livestrong.com will be close to worthless. What's the chance that he could face civil action from Demand Media for material misrepresentation? Any chance that Radio Shack could also claim damages (to the brand) and have a good case against LA?

 

[Yeahright]

http://m.prnewswire.com/news-releas...e-drug-spokesman-robert-weiner-120568759.html

The Feds will be rolling but not rolling over. They are sick to death of the drug trafficking in sport. I have on good authority they have ordered Armstrong to be taken down as an example. What ever it takes.

Can you quote that authority? Not trying to be a stick in the mud but you have been caught crying wolf before and I am usually wary of guys who constantly quote a "good authority' without providing any corroborative evidence.

 

[Oldman]

Some questions about potential civil litigation if LA is ever convicted -

If LA is ever convicted I'm guessing that livestrong.com will be close to worthless. What's the chance that he could face civil action from Demand Media for material misrepresentation? Any chance that Radio Shack could also claim damages (to the brand) and have a good case against LA?

Doubt LA would enter into any moral clauses with entities he owns or is a major shareholder. As for sponsors; they usually have clauses in their contract that would cover that sort of "misrepresentation" but it's probably limited to the salary paid or total sponsor dollars to the team. The latter would be more costly but Lance wasn't taking a wage...from them. RS would need to prove that the team knew of Lance's behavior and probably show some kind of damage and I'm not sure there is a way to damage the Radio Shack brand. What is it they sell again? The beer guy's attorneys cost more than the publicity Anheuser-Busch would get so they could care less.

It'd be the earlier history payouts for race results and his famous "bonus" insurance policy. I'm sure they'd find a way to unseal that settlement if they could. The real plus is Lance will stop making big money and have to pay for his women and friends, much like he does now but he'd have no illusions about their love for him.

 

[Granville57]

http://m.prnewswire.com/news-releas...e-drug-spokesman-robert-weiner-120568759.html

Wow! That should be required reading. Thanks for that, Hog.

I hope everyone here takes the time to read that linked article, as well as the full transcript that’s linked at the end. There are some very specific Armstrong references that are not found in the original piece.
(Just so you're aware, clicking on the second link will initiate a direct download of the transcript.)

This is easily one of the most straightforward and damning assessments of pro sports that I have ever read. Robert Weiner pulls absolutely no punches in his overview of the situation at hand. And for anyone that wants to question WHY these investigations into sports doping are important, he makes as good a case for that as you will ever find. This guy plays no favorite with any sport either. They’re all dirty.

Some highlights:

Then there is the “TUE” -- the infamous “Therapeutic Use Exemption” which lets your doctor give you an excuse for anything if you claim the drug is necessary with a straight face. [Mr] Pound, the first President of the World Anti-Doping Agency and IOC member, said it’s amazing that the strongest and fittest people on earth are six times as sick as the general population. It’s total BS.

With the 2012 summer Olympics coming on us, it’s time to prepare for an onslaught of illegal drug use during the Games.

In the late nineties, when home run king Mark McGwire used androstenedione and admitted it (FDA only recently confirmed it as a steroid), youth use of it QUINTUPLED.

Take Lance Armstrong, 7-time Tour de France winner. He had CANCER and went all over TV including CNN’s Larry King saying “I didn’t dope.” But he ALSO was on TV at the same time doing ADS for Bristol Myers-Squibb saying, “The drugs saved my life”, and the ad directly specified Bristol Myers’ steroids and EPO that he took as a cancer patient.