Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[Topangarider]

A few visits a year for several years and a (high) six figure bill? Wow. Probably no friends and family discount there.

In the deposition, when LA is asked if total payments could have been 1 million he doesn't say NO WAY as if that would be ridiculous.

 

[BroDeal]

How could he not be charged, given his massive drug use? The money trail will reveal this.

Let's be clear that the money we are talking about was for the purchase of PED's. The rest of the fees incurred by Armstrong and other riders who employed Ferrari were more than likely for guarantees against competition during particular races, and the doctor's expertise in dodging positive tests. The training programs were last on the list of priorities.

There could be people involved in the mechanics of money laundering, tax evasion, drug trafficking, etc. who are much softer targets. There could be more damning evidence against them that makes it easier to build a solid case.

For example, someone in management of Tailwind could be charged with avoiding financial transaction reporting laws. The motive might be to pay for the team's doping advice from Dr. Ferrari. Armstrong and the team's doping would merely be the motive for the crime.

 

[JA.Tri]

A few visits a year for several years and a (high) six figure bill? Wow. Probably no friends and family discount there.

In the deposition, when LA is asked if total payments could have been 1 million he doesn't say NO WAY as if that would be ridiculous.

True.

The emphasis in his response unfortunately is not available in print. He may have said "I DON'T think so" that is, more emphatic.

Having said that, "NO WAY" is more convincing.

 

[Maxiton]

A summation of where things stand so far, from Velonation; a "solid case" is being built:


http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/8...Service-investigation-continuing-onwards.aspx

 

[python]

A summation of where things stand so far, from Velonation; a "solid case" is being built:


http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/8...Service-investigation-continuing-onwards.aspx

i just was going to post the link.

below are some quotes that velonation asserts are from their own sources

Contrary to suggestions made in an AP article released in February, there are little clear indications of ‘serious hurdles,’ as was stated then.

VeloNation has spoken to sources with knowledge of the matter and understands that investigators are continuing to build what they feel is a solid case. This website understands that Floyd Landis’ claims have been bolstered over time by the testimony of multiple witnesses, with these corroborating suggestions that systemic doping took place on the team.

VeloNation has heard that Armstrong’s legal team met with officials from the US Attorney’s office and others, and that unsuccessful attempts may have been made to stop the investigation from proceeding

 

[sniper]

Armstrong to avoid charges, if the world goes under in 2012

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/8...Service-investigation-continuing-onwards.aspx

Remember the BALCO case, how long that took? Well, we could be still talking about this one in 2016

If Nostradamus and others were right about the 2012 apocalyps, Armstrong might still avoid charges.

 

[Anonymous]

As much as anything, I hope that he is stripped of his 7 TdF wins. Every single one.

I also hope that The Hog goes down in all of this. Systematic team doping has to be coordinated, and a man with The Hog's connections and control deserves punishment just as much as Armstrong.

As for them trying to shut it down, I am sure that is what Armstrong has been banking on all along. He is a man of wealth (made on the backs of people suffering from cancer), and thus has VERY powerful connections. I am betting some of them have given him the "I assure you that this will go nowhere" talk believing their power and position will be the cavalry for him. Don't count that out in the stupid atmosphere that is US politics these days. Money buys influence and Old Tex is raking it in clothed in yellow and bald heads.

 

[la.margna]

As much as anything, I hope that he is stripped of his 7 TdF wins. Every single one.

I also hope that The Hog goes down in all of this. Systematic team doping has to be coordinated, and a man with The Hog's connections and control deserves punishment just as much as Armstrong.

As for them trying to shut it down, I am sure that is what Armstrong has been banking on all along. He is a man of wealth (made on the backs of people suffering from cancer), and thus has VERY powerful connections. I am betting some of them have given him the "I assure you that this will go nowhere" talk believing their power and position will be the cavalry for him. Don't count that out in the stupid atmosphere that is US politics these days. Money buys influence and Old Tex is raking it in clothed in yellow and bald heads.

couldn't agree more. but the danger that his strong connections and political influence might halt the entire operation is still real and not to be underestimated, unfortunately.

 

[Topangarider]

... but the danger that his strong connections and political influence might halt the entire operation is still real and not to be underestimated, unfortunately.

I do NOT have DOJ experience but I suspect that if this investigation were going to be halted for political reasons that this would have happened already. It appears that there's quite a bit of momentum now - international efforts and interagency cooperation - and thus it could be harder to suppress. For example, would the French allow LA's EPO urine to be transferred to US officials if the investigation had a good chance of being halted?

We've seen plenty of politicization of the DOJ in the last decade but I don't think Fabiani is going to be able to interfere with a federal prosecutor's
work.

It would be helpful for the investigation if the MSM took more interest in the latest developments but this lack of coverage is a reminder that as famous as LA is, cycling is of little interest to the American public. On the other hand, the limited press on LA, Ferrari et al may also reflect how few leaks there have been from the DOJ.

 

[D-Queued]

As much as anything, I hope that he is stripped of his 7 TdF wins. Every single one.

I also hope that The Hog goes down in all of this. Systematic team doping has to be coordinated, and a man with The Hog's connections and control deserves punishment just as much as Armstrong.

As for them trying to shut it down, I am sure that is what Armstrong has been banking on all along. He is a man of wealth (made on the backs of people suffering from cancer), and thus has VERY powerful connections. I am betting some of them have given him the "I assure you that this will go nowhere" talk believing their power and position will be the cavalry for him. Don't count that out in the stupid atmosphere that is US politics these days. Money buys influence and Old Tex is raking it in clothed in yellow and bald heads.

While I would be satisfied with an asterisk, why stop with the TdF? My personal ambition would be to go all the way back to the Thrift Drug Triple Crown in '93.

The longer they take on this investigation the better, as they might as well completely mine this ore vein. One thing to be appreciated about the US judicial system is consecutive sentencing. Multiple crimes could result in a long time (right Bernie Madoff?).

As for political influence, if they are going to take down Masterson (or Madoff, or Ebbers, or Skilling...), Armstrong doesn't stand a chance. In the current geo-political climate, saving cancer doesn't have anywhere near the same political importance and overlay as 'saving' ****stan and Afghanistan.

Dave.

(P.S. the language filter is a bit odd. Ok, part of Pak!stan could be a racial epithet, but the entire word is the name of a country)

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

The best thing that can come from this investigation is something doesn't just get rid of Armstrong but gets rid of McQuaid, Hog, Ferrari, Riis, Och, Fuentes etc

What we don't want is a situation as in baseball where the users get sent thrown under the bus, while the enablers remain. There is no hope for cycling to get control of the doping issue for as long as Hog and Riis are sat in cars, while Och is still doing his thing, the likes of Ferrari, Fuentes, etc are a phonecall away, and while McQuaid is still running the sport into the ground.

If they are following the financial paper trail I hope they follow the Armstrong-UCI link and bring the Hein/McQuaid mafia down.

 

[mewmewmew13]

As much as anything, I hope that he is stripped of his 7 TdF wins. Every single one.

I also hope that The Hog goes down in all of this. Systematic team doping has to be coordinated, and a man with The Hog's connections and control deserves punishment just as much as Armstrong.

As for them trying to shut it down, I am sure that is what Armstrong has been banking on all along. He is a man of wealth (made on the backs of people suffering from cancer), and thus has VERY powerful connections. I am betting some of them have given him the "I assure you that this will go nowhere" talk believing their power and position will be the cavalry for him. Don't count that out in the stupid atmosphere that is US politics these days. Money buys influence and Old Tex is raking it in clothed in yellow and bald heads.[/quote]

"VeloNation has heard that Armstrong’s legal team met with officials from the US Attorney’s office and others, and that unsuccessful attempts may have been made to stop the investigation from proceeding. His spokesman, Mark Fabiani, previously worked for Bill Clinton and has extensive political connections"

When I read this it just burned my bu++! This is so classic...that privileged righteousness that you can be a complete jerk and thug and still think that the law does not apply to you. Hopefully, "unsuccessful attempts" is exactly true.

One can only hope that in this case it has gone far beyond the 'political connection' escape route.

 

[DirtyWorks]

While I would be satisfied with an asterisk, why stop with the TdF? My personal ambition would be to go all the way back to the Thrift Drug Triple Crown in '93.

Let's go back to WonderBoy's USAC development days too. We know for a fact he was doped then too. The problem with this wish is Tailwind (Weisel, Stapletons, etc) own USAC.

ASO and the UCI won't touch the race results if they don't have to. This way the doping fades into the background. I half-way agree with their position.

Ideally, this is Black Sox scandal in scale and much wider in scope.

My ideal is that the felony charges stick on most of the Tailwind principals, then we get Steve Tilford to run USAC. He'll have to decouple from the UCI and therefore IOC for many reasons. He would need a decade to change the way that federation works and clear the minefield of scandals Weisel and company have created. I think he's got the right mindset to restore grassroots cycling though.

 

[Smera1]

I do NOT have DOJ experience but I suspect that if this investigation were going to be halted for political reasons that this would have happened already. It appears that there's quite a bit of momentum now - international efforts and interagency cooperation - and thus it could be harder to suppress. For example, would the French allow LA's EPO urine to be transferred to US officials if the investigation had a good chance of being halted?

We've seen plenty of politicization of the DOJ in the last decade but I don't think Fabiani is going to be able to interfere with a federal prosecutor's
work.

It would be helpful for the investigation if the MSM took more interest in the latest developments but this lack of coverage is a reminder that as famous as LA is, cycling is of little interest to the American public. On the other hand, the limited press on LA, Ferrari et al may also reflect how few leaks there have been from the DOJ.

I just don't understand why he wasn't indicted given the momentum and the connections discovered. I mean, what couble be the missing pieces of the puzzle for the circle to finnaly close ?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

The best thing that can come from this investigation is something doesn't just get rid of Armstrong but gets rid of McQuaid, Hog, Ferrari, Riis, Och, Fuentes etc

What we don't want is a situation as in baseball where the users get sent thrown under the bus, while the enablers remain. There is no hope for cycling to get control of the doping issue for as long as Hog and Riis are sat in cars, while Och is still doing his thing, the likes of Ferrari, Fuentes, etc are a phonecall away, and while McQuaid is still running the sport into the ground.

If they are following the financial paper trail I hope they follow the Armstrong-UCI link and bring the Hein/McQuaid mafia down.

Oh ya! That would be a fabulous result.

I think The Hog (Tailwind) & Och (as bagman) are in trouble.
I don't think legally McQuaid will be fingered, but hopefully all his dirty laundry will be aired.

I just don't understand why he wasn't indicted given the momentum and the connections discovered. I mean, what couble be the missing pieces of the puzzle for the circle to finnaly close ?

Firstly, the BALCO investigation started in the summer of 2002 but the first indictments were not handed down until February 2004.

More importantly this is a bigger case, there will be a huge volume of documents and material to go through. The investigators/prosecutors biggest task will be deciding on when to stop digging.

 

[Topangarider]

I just don't understand why he wasn't indicted given the momentum and the connections discovered. I mean, what couble be the missing pieces of the puzzle for the circle to finnaly close ?

Can't answer that. The case has the impression of growing but it just may be the strategic unfolding of a long plan. It also seems clear that any coordination of a complex international investigation takes time - sharing of info, collection of evidence (through interviews, wire taps, forensic accounting, seeking of warrants to access financial accounts and med records, etc). Also, since it's not just about LA I am sure there are lots of decisions to be made in terms of how the investigation should unfold so as to maximize pressure on witnesses and potential defendants. For ex, the Italians may not care so much about LA and maybe an indictment of LA at this time will hamper their focus on Dr. Ferrari.

There's also the possibility of sealed indictments.

 

[Smera1]

Can't answer that. The case has the impression of growing but it just may be the strategic unfolding of a long plan. It also seems clear that any coordination of a complex international investigation takes time - sharing of info, collection of evidence (through interviews, wire taps, forensic accounting, seeking of warrants to access financial accounts and med records, etc). Also, since it's not just about LA I am sure there are lots of decisions to be made in terms of how the investigation should unfold so as to maximize pressure on witnesses and potential defendants. For ex, the Italians may not care so much about LA and maybe an indictment of LA at this time will hamper their focus on Dr. Ferrari.

There's also the possibility of sealed indictments.

Many thanks for your input.
Best Regards.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Can't answer that. The case has the impression of growing but it just may be the strategic unfolding of a long plan. It also seems clear that any coordination of a complex international investigation takes time - sharing of info, collection of evidence (through interviews, wire taps, forensic accounting, seeking of warrants to access financial accounts and med records, etc). Also, since it's not just about LA I am sure there are lots of decisions to be made in terms of how the investigation should unfold so as to maximize pressure on witnesses and potential defendants. For ex, the Italians may not care so much about LA and maybe an indictment of LA at this time will hamper their focus on Dr. Ferrari.

There's also the possibility of sealed indictments.

It may also be that they have learnt from the Bonds investigation where a lot of stuff was thrown out because the correct procedures weren't followed (ie the 104 failed tests lists) means that they are making sure that all 't's are crossed etc.

 

[Oldman]

Let's go back to WonderBoy's USAC development days too. We know for a fact he was doped then too. The problem with this wish is Tailwind (Weisel, Stapletons, etc) own USAC.

ASO and the UCI won't touch the race results if they don't have to. This way the doping fades into the background. I half-way agree with their position.

Ideally, this is Black Sox scandal in scale and much wider in scope.

My ideal is that the felony charges stick on most of the Tailwind principals, then we get Steve Tilford to run USAC. He'll have to decouple from the UCI and therefore IOC for many reasons. He would need a decade to change the way that federation works and clear the minefield of scandals Weisel and company have created. I think he's got the right mindset to restore grassroots cycling though.

USAC being thoroughly rootered on the upper level will help but the UCI might be harder to get rid of. If McQuaid goes quietly bearing the sins of the past it may keep them afloat and USAC won't really have a choice as long as the IOC is untouched. Nothing we've heard provides links to that level but I still contend that would be the big, and very politically protected prize.

 

[Berzin]

If anyone followed the HBO series "The Wire" during it's pivotal last season, you'll know that when all was said and done, a couple of bad people went to jail or were murdered and the rest kept it moving.

Many were promoted, continuing the upwards rot, others slithered out of their posts before they were fired, and the rest went elsewhere.

An entrenched bureaucrat like Pat McQuaid isn't going to just go quietly. He spent his whole career shmoozing and having wine with the right people to just leave without a fight.

I'm sure that nepotism will eventually creep in, and we will see in the coming years his son in some position of influence at the UCI.

That's the world we live in, so I wouldn't hold my breath that there will be justice served in the long run. All we can do is hope that enough people go down that maybe some of the entrenched doping in cycling is revealed and eradicated.

The Armstrong legacy will be that of the most egregious cheater in modern-day sport. He'll still have his fanboys because those aging yuppies who ride in the master's classes who consider him a hero will never abandon him because they are just like Lance-hard working, dedicated, and doped to the gills.

 

[sartain]

If anyone followed the HBO series "The Wire" during it's pivotal last season, you'll know that when all was said and done, a couple of bad people went to jail or were murdered and the rest kept it moving.

Many were promoted, continuing the upwards rot, others slithered out of their posts before they were fired, and the rest went elsewhere.

An entrenched bureaucrat like Pat McQuaid isn't going to just go quietly. He spent his whole career shmoozing and having wine with the right people to just leave without a fight.

I'm sure that nepotism will eventually creep in, and we will see in the coming years his son in some position of influence at the UCI.

That's the world we live in, so I wouldn't hold my breath that there will be justice served in the long run. All we can do is hope that enough people go down that maybe some of the entrenched doping in cycling is revealed and eradicated.

The Armstrong legacy will be that of the most egregious cheater in modern-day sport. He'll still have his fanboys because those aging yuppies who ride in the master's classes who consider him a hero will never abandon him because they are just like Lance-hard working, dedicated, and doped to the gills.

I suspect you are SPOT ON there in your assessment, Berzin.

 

[JA.Tri]

again drifting off the main stream

As much as anything, I hope that he is stripped of his 7 TdF wins. Every single one.

I also hope that The Hog goes down in all of this. Systematic team doping has to be coordinated, and a man with The Hog's connections and control deserves punishment just as much as Armstrong.

As for them trying to shut it down, I am sure that is what Armstrong has been banking on all along. He is a man of wealth (made on the backs of people suffering from cancer), and thus has VERY powerful connections. I am betting some of them have given him the "I assure you that this will go nowhere" talk believing their power and position will be the cavalry for him. Don't count that out in the stupid atmosphere that is US politics these days. Money buys influence and Old Tex is raking it in clothed in yellow and bald heads.

I hope that LA and co get their "just desserts".

I smiled at the reference to politics and contemplated GWBush and Scooter Libby. If GW was in power, would he provide a pardon (if needed) for his "good friend"?

 

[Fausto's Schnauzer]

Why?

There have been plenty of cyclists and other athletes caught for doping. Many of those have been more or less forgiven by their fans and history. So why is Sir Gunderson of Austin so reviled by so many? What makes him so different in the eyes of the informed cycling world. The answer may be here.

http://electricpulp.com/guykawasaki/****/

 

[Fausto's Schnauzer]

Why?

Plenty of athletes have been caught for doping, cheating and worse. Yet many of those have been more or less forgiven by the fans and by history. What's so different about Sir Lancelot? Why is he so reviled by so many? The answer may be in this questionnaire that Lance should take.

http://tinyurl.com/29ba44

 

[Berzin]

A question-my feelings are that the money accredited to Ferrari aren't just about payments for training plans-they must also invlove payment for the procurement of PED's.

It's too much money to be just about payments for one particular aspect of a doping program.

Having said that, what is the likelihood the good doctor rats out the director sportifs and riders he worked with, including Armstrong?

Would he consider this route seeing as there could be massive heat on him?

Will his riders protect him to the bitter end?

What would be the endgame for guys like Bruyneel? He seems to be the odd man out at the moment.

Anything going on with him as far as the investigation is concerned?