Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[ChrisE]

Dave,

You are Canadian. Please do not opine about things you do not understand, like what real Americans believe. Thanks.

Your Friend,
ChrisE

 

[ChrisE]

Also there may be some possibility of a civil fraud lawsuit that would avoid the statute of limitations on a theory that the fraudsters concealed the fraud from discovery for years. Some evidence gained in the criminal investigation might be useful for that purpose.

I thought SCA, if that is what you are referring to, was final upon the decision after arbitration or whatever that fiasco was called?

It seems a thread was made about this but I can't remember the exact details. Maybe it evolved around perjury, and how those that appear may have lied like Mcilvain would not be in jeopardy. I remember thinking at the time that was assinine how people cannot be held accountable for lying under oath if that fact is discovered later....

 

[D-Queued]

Dave,

You are Canadian. Please do not opine about things you do not understand, like what real Americans believe. Thanks.

Your Friend,
ChrisE

Who said I was not a dual citizen?

I signed the petition to put Ross Perot on the ballot.

He understood the difference between potato chips and silicon chips, and his voodoo rod was all you needed to run the country.

What more do I need to know about what real Americans believe?

Dave.

 

[Topangarider]

Not sure you understand how a Witch Hunt works....
The Witches are generally NOT allowed to grab a flaming torch to join in the hunt lol.

In which countries and centuries have witches been able to spend millions on a legal team and public relations campaign?

 

[ChrisE]

Who said I was not a dual citizen?

I signed the petition to put Ross Perot on the ballot.

He understood the difference between potato chips and silicon chips, and his voodoo rod was all you needed to run the country.

What more do I need to know about what real Americans believe?

Dave.

Ah, I think you know enough. Carry on.

 

[MarkvW]

I thought SCA, if that is what you are referring to, was final upon the decision after arbitration or whatever that fiasco was called?

It seems a thread was made about this but I can't remember the exact details. Maybe it evolved around perjury, and how those that appear may have lied like Mcilvain would not be in jeopardy. I remember thinking at the time that was assinine how people cannot be held accountable for lying under oath if that fact is discovered later....

No, I'm talking about Floyd's suit or maybe even a civil suit initiated by the feds over the USPS. Not saying that it will happen, or that the evidence points to it, but saying that I can't see how it's ruled out.

 

[thirteen]

Pretty sure exroadman was blowing smoke and frenchfry was being sarcastic.

lol! where's the fun in that?

 

[ChrisE]

No, I'm talking about Floyd's suit or maybe even a civil suit initiated by the feds over the USPS. Not saying that it will happen, or that the evidence points to it, but saying that I can't see how it's ruled out.

OK, I understand. Thanks.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

In 99 he only rode away from the others into Sestriere I believe, and he only won by 30 something seconds. He even lost time on the last mountaintop finish in the Pyrenees if I remember correctly. Of course he was not under pressure after Gois so that probably changed tactics, and there was no strong TT-er like JU that he felt he must put time into. I seem to remember that discounting Gois he only beat Zulle by a minute or something.

2004 he never finished alone. He won alot of stages but he never rode away like he did in 2001. In 2001 he would just stand up and sprint away from the others like they were sitting still. He did that on I think 3 stages, and he dominated the TT's that year. Alot of people claim JU was his strongest that year, but no way IMO. He was much stronger in 96-98, no coincidence before the EPO test.

In 2000 LA was strong at first, but looked very human in the Alps and cracked on Jaux Plane. I personally think his single most dominant performance was Hautacam in 2000, followed by Pla d det and Alpe in 2001....

Interesting fact: in 2001 JU rode the Alpe 2 mins slower than the did in 97 I believe, and JU lost to LA by 2 mins on that climb in 2001. JU finished 2nd that day in 2001, ie best of the rest.

I've written this before and sorry to go off our topic but it leads to my reasoning about 2001, other than my eyes of course....I do not think LA had an advantage over his 7 years by having UCI protection. My opinion is it was peleton wide in the TdF, or there were alot of blind eyes turned. My exception to this is 2001. Perhaps the other riders were in a transition from EPO to other methods, or they were relatively clean while trying to figure out what they could get away with since the EPO test introduction. This was a transition time in testing and perhaps there was confusion about how much of a crackdown there would be. But perhaps LA had protection so he could keep using in 2001....

Remember per FL Ferrari advised LA to stop taking EPO in 2001, then he was caught in the TdS. I digress off topic but if LA had UCI protection all 7 years then why would Ferrari be worred??? If he had protection up to that point why did he advise LA to stop using it because of the new test???

Anyway if payoffs were agreed in 2001, I would assume it was under agreement that he would have that protection in the tour that year. No way LA could change from an EPO based regimen in June to something different in July, and have the bugs worked out to dominate that tour like he did.

I am unsure of the timeframe....when did LA learn of the "suspicious" TdS result?

We have crossed swords before - but to the highlighted issue I think thats a pretty fair assessment.

I don't believe LA had 'protection' per se, ie that he could dope with impunity and get away with it.
There was some confusion on the EPO test at the time in how long after you took it that it remained detectable. (IIRC the wisdom at the time was 3 days). Perhaps LA got his timing wrong.

IMO the reason for the cover-up by the authorities was not to protect Armstrong - but in their eyes, to protect the sport from another huge scandal. Remember Tour 2001 was right after the Giro had been raided and was close to collapse it caused such a controversy that the Italians suspended all cycling for a week in June.

 

[ChrisE]

We have crossed swords before - but to the highlighted issue I think thats a pretty fair assessment.

I don't believe LA had 'protection' per se, ie that he could dope with impunity and get away with it.
There was some confusion on the EPO test at the time in how long after you took it that it remained detectable. (IIRC the wisdom at the time was 3 days). Perhaps LA got his timing wrong.

IMO the reason for the cover-up by the authorities was not to protect Armstrong - but in their eyes, to protect the sport from another huge scandal. Remember Tour 2001 was right after the Giro had been raided and was close to collapse it caused such a controversy that the Italians suspended all cycling for a week in June.

When did we ever cross swords? You were just being hard headed, my sword was always in its sheath. It is just taking you awhile to realize I am always right. My ex-wife never got to that point, so at least you have more potential than her.

I think sports authorities in general have much more incentive to cover up doping than expose it, as I have stated before so I agree with your post. I do think that the presence of LA in the peloton enhanced that aversion because he opened up a much broader market. There was alot more to lose if LA's wins were rocked by all his adversaries going AAF in the tour during those years because it would raise questions about how he could compete clean. Or obviously if LA himself got popped it would be very bad in terms of sponsorships and marketing for the sport's biggest showcase, and who knows what else was going on behind the scenes in terms of money changing hands unknown to us. Look at what has happened in the tour since he retired the first time...FL, OP fallout (Basso and JU, Astana exclusion)the Chicken, Ricco, Kohl, Vino, AC etc. Why is that???

Inre to 2001, my hypothesis is nothing more than a guess after looking at it objectively. Something was up in that year both in terms of JU's performance compared to 97/98 and in terms of the dominance LA showed. It seems it is too much of a coincidence when you tie that back into what FL and TH claim happened in 2001 TdS and what Ferrari told him....

 

[Dr. Maserati]

When did we ever cross swords? You were just being hard headed, my sword was always in its sheath. It is just taking you awhile to realize I am always right. My ex-wife never got to that point, so at least you have more potential than her.

I think sports authorities in general have much more incentive to cover up doping than expose it, as I have stated before so I agree with your post. I do think that the presence of LA in the peloton enhanced that aversion because he opened up a much broader market. There was alot more to lose if LA's wins were rocked by all his adversaries going AAF in the tour during those years because it would raise questions about how he could compete clean. Or obviously if LA himself got popped it would be very bad in terms of sponsorships and marketing for the sport's biggest showcase, and who knows what else was going on behind the scenes in terms of money changing hands unknown to us. Look at what has happened in the tour since he retired the first time...FL, OP fallout (Basso and JU, Astana exclusion)the Chicken, Ricco, Kohl, Vino, AC etc. Why is that???

Inre to 2001, my hypothesis is nothing more than a guess after looking at it objectively. Something was up in that year both in terms of JU's performance compared to 97/98 and in terms of the dominance LA showed. It seems it is too much of a coincidence when you tie that back into what FL and TH claim happened in 2001 TdS and what Ferrari told him....

To the highlighted - thats easy, all that came after 2004, when WADA were reluctantly invited to the party.
Also many that you mention there were not caught by the UCI, but through AFLD or Police busts.

 

[ChrisE]

To the highlighted - thats easy, all that came after 2004, when WADA were reluctantly invited to the party.
Also many that you mention there were not caught by the UCI, but through AFLD or Police busts.

Then why no busts of upper tier riders in the tour in 2005? There were busts in other GTs before 2004 as well, and you gave the example of the 2001 Giro. The tour was quiet from 99-2005, and the other GT's were having various doping scandals.

I do not think the incentive to cover up doping and thus impacting the bottom line is restricted to the UCI. Something fishy was going on in France those 7 years IMO.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Then why no busts of upper tier riders in the tour in 2005? There were busts in other GTs before 2004 as well, and you gave the example of the 2001 Giro. The tour was quiet from 99-2005, and the other GT's were having various doping scandals.

I do not think the incentive to cover up doping and thus impacting the bottom line is restricted to the UCI. Something fishy was going on in France those 7 years IMO.

Again 'upper tiered riders' had moved on to blood transfusions.
2001 Giro was a Police raid, none of the doping scandals were the result of UCI catching anyone.

 

[ChrisE]

Again 'upper tiered riders' had moved on to blood transfusions.
2001 Giro was a Police raid, none of the doping scandals were the result of UCI catching anyone.

Heras got popped for EPO at the Vuelta in 2005...why was he doing that if blood transfusions were in vogue? Why ignore FL when he had a laundry list of other PEDs used along with blood doping?

Why were there no police raids or entities causing problems in France 99-2005, like in the giro? Festina in 98 must have been so much fun it fulfilled the bloodlust for 7 years lol.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Heras got popped for EPO at the Vuelta in 2005...why was he doing that if blood transfusions were in vogue? Why ignore FL when he had a laundry list of other PEDs used along with blood doping?

Why were there no police raids or entities causing problems in France 99-2005, like in the giro? Festina in 98 must have been so much fun it fulfilled the bloodlust for 7 years lol.

I am not ignoring it - just it has little to do with your point or TdS 2001.
They were all doing a variety of PEDs.

The EPO test didn't stop EPO use, they either used it away from races & controls or as Manzano pointed out they had an masking agent that they put on their hands that hid EPO.

 

[Anonymous]

I juat read on velonews the results were suspect but not linked to Armstrong. I also read they met during a routine visit to take blood. This is a non story. move on. And it's not good for Novitsky. Nothing can be found here. Every rider who says they saw no doping is equally as deserving of respect as those who say he did dope. You people are so lacking in critical thinking skills with your foaming at the mouth bash Armstrong rhetoric you haven't even managed to ponder that Hincapie's non denial of admission is a deliberate strategy by Hincapie and LA. I beleive let sleeping dogs lie..you don't buddy!

Yes. You may be on to something there. I'm sure they both enjoy writing checks to their attorneys too. It certainly could be Lance attempting to spend away his net worth so as to blunt any potential civil action. How's that for critical thinking....?

Solid post. Really.

 

[Polish]

- LA & co. have wasted more tax payers' money than Novitzky will be able to waste in a lifetime.

- what witch? and which hunt?

You need to double check your maths, sniper.

Pro Cycling is a low budget Pro Sport.
USPostal spent chump change.
Check their budget.
They now spend more on TV ads in one month than they did on the Cycling Team.
And AMD pitched in. Berry Floors. Lots of other sponsors.

And how much of the Team's total budget was spent on iillegal PEDS?
Few hundred thousand dollars? A million bucks on EPO/HGH/ETC?

With what the Fed Investigation is spending, the whole peloton could be supplied with PEDS. For many years over.

Which is just as well - since the message they are sending is:

"its OK to do PEDS. You will get immunity"
"Go ahead and promote a Defense Fund$ if you want"
"just spill the beans. spit spit spit"
"You will get immunity. Dope away"

Unless you are a mega star celebrity doper.
Then you are screwed lol.

And what do you think Lance has spent the most on?

PEDS?
Income Taxes?
Donations to Livestrong?

He has paid way more in income taxes than he ever spent on PEDS.
He has donated to Livestrong more than he ever spent on PEDS.

Check your maths, sniper, check your maths....

 

[D-Queued]

...

He has paid way more in income taxes than he ever spent on PEDS.
He has donated to Livestrong more than he ever spent on PEDS.

Check your maths, sniper, check your maths....

Provide some proof, Polish, provide some proof.

Dave.

 

[Polish]

Provide some proof, Polish, provide some proof.

Dave.

I'm not here to do your homework, dave.
Do it yourself - you may learn something.

 

[D-Queued]

I'm not here to do your homework, dave.
Do it yourself - you may learn something.

Again, demonstrating that you have nothing to back your assertions with. No substance, whatsoever.

On the other hand, I am pretty sure I am one of the best at providing back-up, citations and fact after fact for my comments on this forum.

The contrast could not be greater.

Dave.

 

[sniper]

You need to double check your maths, sniper.

Pro Cycling is a low budget Pro Sport.
USPostal spent chump change.
Check their budget.
They now spend more on TV ads in one month than they did on the Cycling Team.
And AMD pitched in. Berry Floors. Lots of other sponsors.

And how much of the Team's total budget was spent on iillegal PEDS?
Few hundred thousand dollars? A million bucks on EPO/HGH/ETC?

With what the Fed Investigation is spending, the whole peloton could be supplied with PEDS. For many years over.

Which is just as well - since the message they are sending is:

"its OK to do PEDS. You will get immunity"
"Go ahead and promote a Defense Fund$ if you want"
"just spill the beans. spit spit spit"
"You will get immunity. Dope away"

Unless you are a mega star celebrity doper.
Then you are screwed lol.

And what do you think Lance has spent the most on?

PEDS?
Income Taxes?
Donations to Livestrong?

He has paid way more in income taxes than he ever spent on PEDS.
He has donated to Livestrong more than he ever spent on PEDS.

Check your maths, sniper, check your maths....

for as genious a poster as you definitely are (and still lightyears ahead of your clinic-copycats, who are growing in number), have you really drifted to the right-hand side of the political spectrum so much that you are no longer able to see the necessity of investigations into social and economic fraud and rather prefer the money be spent on the military?

whatever the costs of novitzky's investigations, you know darn well that letting LA & co. off the hook is not an option here.

EDIT: sorry for bringing up politics here, perhaps inappropriate.
The fact is that my maths isn't all that great, so giving you a knowleadgable, well-informed reply was not an option.

 

[GreasyMonkey]

You need to double check your maths, sniper.

Pro Cycling is a low budget Pro Sport.
USPostal spent chump change.
Check their budget.
They now spend more on TV ads in one month than they did on the Cycling Team.
And AMD pitched in. Berry Floors. Lots of other sponsors.

And how much of the Team's total budget was spent on iillegal PEDS?
Few hundred thousand dollars? A million bucks on EPO/HGH/ETC?

With what the Fed Investigation is spending, the whole peloton could be supplied with PEDS. For many years over.

Which is just as well - since the message they are sending is:

"its OK to do PEDS. You will get immunity"
"Go ahead and promote a Defense Fund$ if you want"
"just spill the beans. spit spit spit"
"You will get immunity. Dope away"

Unless you are a mega star celebrity doper.
Then you are screwed lol.

And what do you think Lance has spent the most on?

PEDS?
Income Taxes?
Donations to Livestrong?

He has paid way more in income taxes than he ever spent on PEDS.
He has donated to Livestrong more than he ever spent on PEDS.

Check your maths, sniper, check your maths....

Feed the troll some sugar, QUICK.... he is getting irritable and techy - signs of low blood sugar.

Can't have the pet troll going hypoglycemic on us

 

[frenchfry]

Can someone post factual links to these dollar ammounts ?


curious as to the validity

Not the first time my sophisticated sarcasm has not been detected. Probably not the last either.

The whole "waste of tax dollars" argument is soooo iritating. Especially when they aren't even my taxes.

 

[frenchfry]

You are right of course.
It is not just the FDA that is wasting precious Taxpayer Money on Lance.
The Treasury & FBI & IRS & Homeland Security & Secret Service are wasting taxpayer monies too.
A good Witch Hunt includes townspeople from all walks of life.
Butcher/Cobbler/Bookkeeper/ETC



With the impending USA Budget Crunch, it's possible that US Soldiers will not be paid.
But the Witch Hunt will be funded. Nice.

Maybe while the FDA / FBI / HomeLandSecurity are investigating 1999 CycleDoping,
they can pick up on some useful chatter from terrorist bad guys?




Not sure you understand how a Witch Hunt works....
The Witches are generally NOT allowed to grab a flaming torch to join in the hunt lol.

Floyd and Tyler were previously victims of witch hunts. Now they are the hunters. It could therefore be argued that indeed witches can join a witch hunt.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

This thread has become the internet equivalent of an M.C. Escher drawing.