Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[Race Radio]

Yeah, but they had Bonds giving testimony within three months of Balco breaking.

Frankly, I don't really care what happens (the Contador case is more important). It won't change my life or my enjoyment of cycling one jot. I always preferred Ullrich and he was cheat too. I still prefer him.

On the other hand, if I am right, and nothing happens, how long will you keep hoping?

No, it was 6 months and given that his "Trainer" Mike Anderson had already been indicted most can see it would be obvious to interview his biggest customer.

 

[MarkvW]

Nope. Armstrong and friends owe the Postal service treble damages for $30+ million fraud. This investigation is going to turn a profit.

I hope so, but there has been no news on the civil qui tam front.

 

[Mambo95]

ignore this - I'm working on them [Francois]

You don't have an opinion, you have a hope.
Your "opinion" was based on a figure of $70 million - yet, when I show you that it wasn't even a tenth of that you still hold that "opinion". How?

Nor have I "raged" against your "prediction"- thats another strawman like the hate stuff you posted earlier - I am merely exposing its weakness and your hypocrisy.

My opinion isn't based on the $70m figure, it's based on knowing police and lawyers (admittedly in a different country) having to drop cases because of the recession. I image it's the same in the US.

---edited by mod---

 

[Race Radio]

I hope so, but there has been no news on the civil qui tam front.

Knaggs, Stapleton, Weisel, and Armstrong have all received notification that they are targets for the Qui Tam case

 

[MarkvW]

This is how I see it too. The prosecution of Bonds sends a message to all future federal witnesses, that perjury and obstruction of justice isn't in their best interest.

Can someone like Bonds weather the storm? Certainly, he can. Especially since he doesn't care what anyone thinks about him and is happy to be left alone. He also has plenty of money to afford the best lawyers and pay them over the course of 8 years.

Can Joe Public afford to stay home from work for 8 years and spend his entire net worth on legal fees? $800 an hour lawyers eat through the old 401K pretty quick. The feds are saying "We'll go after Barry Bonds with all his resources, what do you think we'll do with you?". It's like that old addage about finding the biggest and baddest guy in prison on your first day, and punching him in the mouth. It sends a message that you're not to messed with, by anyone.

I would venture that they expect to save money in the long run by reducing costs on prosecuting quite a few perjury and obstruction cases in the future, when witnesses and lawyers realize how seriously the feds take it.

The Fifth Amendment is a wonderful thing.

 

[MarkvW]

Knaggs, Stapleton, Weisel, and Armstrong have all received notification that they are targets for the Qui Tam case

Not really new news, though.

 

[Race Radio]

My opinion isn't based on the $70m figure, it's based on knowing police and lawyers (admittedly in a different country) having to drop cases because of the recession. I image it's the same in the US.

As for 'raging' - "Probably not the first time you heard this, but your little *** does not impress me" - do you think that's a valid debating techinique?

I assume some little countries are having trouble but the US Justice department's 2012 budget is $28.2 Billion, an increase of $1.5 Billion in the last two years.

Don't worry, they have enough to spend on the Armstrong case.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

My opinion isn't based on the $70m figure, it's based on knowing police and lawyers (admittedly in a different country) having to drop cases because of the recession. I image it's the same in the US.

As for 'raging' - "Probably not the first time you heard this, but your little *** does not impress me" - do you thing that's a valid debating techinique?

Perfectly valid - it's called wit, not rage.

The basis of your "opinion" was flawed - the $70 million is for the complete BALCO case and yet you are clinging on to a hope (not opinion) that a case will be shut down on financial basis.
Surely it would make more economic sense to pursue this investigation as money has already been spent on it.

 

[Race Radio]

Not really new news, though.

Agreed. Surely a lawyer like yourself would know that Qui Tam cases are secret. Even that fact that the case was filed and notices sent should not have been disclosed. The people who filed are not allowed to talk about the case. The Government could have joined the case and we would not know for a while

We should not be surprised that we have not heard anything

 

[Mambo95]

Don't worry, they have enough to spend on the Armstrong case.

I'm not worried. If he goes to trial, fair enough. I don't care. It's just that I don't hate him and see him as no different than any other doper. Where's the clamour for Ullrich to be prosecuted? Why the hatred?*

However, I can sense that some of you are concerned that this may not go anywhere. I just like fuelling that doubt. Maybe I'll stop some of you posting every day on a thread desperately waiting for a court case about insurance fraud or contract law.



*I know why. A Liverpool FC fan's quote about Fernando Torres tells me: "We hate him so much because we loved him so much".

 

[MarkvW]

I'm just trying to put a little *** in your expectations that this going to end in a big show trial and a jail sentence. I just don't see it.

Neither do I. Cases usually resolve short of trial and first time offenders often avoid jail. And investigations (even big ones) do not always result in criminal charges.

If I'm a prosecutor and I can get Lance to pay back all the USPS contract money in exchange for a sweet deal or no charges, I'm gonna think long and hard about doing it.

A lot of stuff has to happen before a criminal trial takes place. Even more before jail.

The people who say that Lance WILL be charged or WILL go to jail are just blowing smoke. As the man once said in the movie: "Nothing is written . . .."

 

[Race Radio]

I'm not worried. If he goes to trial, fair enough. I don't care. It's just that I don't hate him and see him as no different than any other doper. Where's the clamour for Ullrich to be prosecuted? Why the hatred?*

However, I can sense that some of you are concerned that this may not go anywhere. I just like fuelling that doubt. Maybe I'll stop some of you posting every day on a thread desperately waiting for a court case about insurance fraud or contract law.

*I know why. A Liverpool FC fan's quote about Fernando Torres tells me: "We hate him so much because we loved him so much".

Really, Ulrich paid off the UCI?

Jan was investigated and he was smart enough to negotiate a plea deal. Hopefully Armstrong is smart enough to do the same.

Ahh, I see. You are trying to bait people, nice of you to admit it. You are not fueling any doubt. If anything you are giving opportunity to reinforce the obvious, that Lance is in serious trouble

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I'm not worried. If he goes to trial, fair enough. I don't care. It's just that I don't hate him and see him as no different than any other doper. Where's the clamour for Ullrich to be prosecuted? Why the hatred?*

Actually, I also want to see Ullrich as with all dopers sanctioned or prosecuted - I don't remember you defending Ullrich on the other thread.

You appear to hope that some get away with their doping - and you work in law?

However, I can sense that some of you are concerned that this may not go anywhere. I just like fuelling that doubt. Maybe I'll stop some of you posting every day on a thread desperately waiting for a court case about insurance fraud or contract law.

When the "fuel" you use is made up points and exaggerated numbers it doesn't say much for what you are able to sense.

BTW You want some of us to stop posting? Then stop lying to protect the myth.

*I know why. A Liverpool FC fan's quote about Fernando Torres tells me: "We hate him so much because we loved him so much".

 

[MarkvW]

I'm not worried. If he goes to trial, fair enough. I don't care. It's just that I don't hate him and see him as no different than any other doper. Where's the clamour for Ullrich to be prosecuted? Why the hatred?*

I think many people are unwilling to accept the seemingly obvious fact that pro cycling is a filthy crowd of dope cheats (and their supporters). By saying that Armstrong is SOOOO evil, they can still reserve some love for the noble virgin pro cycling that Bad Lance so awfully tried to despoil.

 

[Ferminal]

Where's the clamour for Ullrich to be prosecuted? Why the hatred?*

The same place as the comments about the Mantova investigation falling victim to budget cuts!

 

[Velodude]

The Fifth Amendment is a wonderful thing.

All the witnesses in BALCO were given grants of immunity to tell the truth. Fifth Amendment does not apply.

 

[MarkvW]

Agreed. Surely a lawyer like yourself would know that Qui Tam cases are secret. Even that fact that the case was filed and notices sent should not have been disclosed. The people who filed are not allowed to talk about the case. The Government could have joined the case and we would not know for a while

We should not be surprised that we have not heard anything

They're only secret to a point, aren't they? Don't they become public when/if he feds take the case? I know very very little about them.

 

[MarkvW]

All the witnesses in BALCO were given grants of immunity to tell the truth. Fifth Amendment does not apply.

The Fifth Amendment ALWAYS applies. That's why it is such a beautiful thing.

And not ALL the witnesses were given immunity! Victor Conte certainly wasn't!

 

[Race Radio]

They're only secret to a point, aren't they? Don't they become public when/if he feds take the case? I know very very little about them.

Not when they join the case but once it is filed

If the Feds join the case then Armstrong and his buddies should just work on a settlement. It would be game over.

 

[Mambo95]

Actually, I also want to see Ullrich as with all dopers sanctioned or prosecuted - I don't remember you defending Ullrich on the other thread.

I'm not defending Armstrong either. I think he doped in large quantities. Just like Ullrich, Beloki, Pantani, Basso and many, many others.

You appear to hope that some get away with their doping - and you work in law?

I didn't say I worked in the law. I said I knew people who did. (However, I do work in IP law). I'd like all criminals punished, but I'm realistic enough to know they won't be, due to resources.

When the "fuel" you use is made up points and exaggerated numbers it doesn't say much for what you are able to sense.

BTW You want some of us to stop posting? Then stop lying to protect the myth.

I'm not protecting any myth. Armstrong is/was a cheat. I'm not denying that. I'm just of the opinion (note: opinion not fact) that this won't go anywhere. And I find it amusing that some posters are hoping on a daily basis that they'll get their big show trial. Basically, I'm laughing at posters' obsessions and the idea that they may be waiting endlessly for something like Vladimir and Estragon, with unbendable faith.

 

[Granville57]

...they can still reserve some love for the noble virgin pro cycling...

Um, someone has ever expressed this...in The Clinic?!?!

Surely you're joking, Mr. Feynman.

 

[Polish]

While I think the FDA and Mr Novitzky are still investigating Drug Rings etc, I think the Grand Jury has finished - its been over 18 months....

So no indictments against Lance boohoo.

But if there were indictments, the Bonds case clearly shows it would have been silly for Lance to do a plea deal. Let a Judge and Jury decide.
Good thing for Barry - choosing to fight the charges.

 

[MarkvW]

Um, someone has ever expressed this...in The Clinic?!?!

Surely you're joking, Mr. Feynman.

Maybe it's more the noble ideal than the noble virgin !

 

[Velodude]

The Fifth Amendment ALWAYS applies. That's why it is such a beautiful thing.

And not ALL the witnesses were given immunity! Victor Conte certainly wasn't!

Errr, Counselor, Victor Conte was not given immunity cos he was a target not a witness. A plea bargain was struck with prosecutors and in July 2005 he entered guilty pleas and was sentenced in October of that year.

A couple of quotes confirming that the Fifth Amendment does not apply when there exists a grant of immunity.

http://californiawatch.org/dailyrep...-used-asteroids-and-other-misconceptions-9896

More than 30 elite athletes were called to testify about BALCO. All, including Bonds, were given immunity from prosecution. As a result, they couldn’t cite their Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination to avoid testifying.

http://muldoongetz.com/issue78.html

Under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution, a person may not be compelled to testify against himself. The prosecution may require a witness to testify, but to do so, must first confer immunity upon the witness.

 

[MarkvW]

While I think the FDA and Mr Novitzky are still investigating Drug Rings etc, I think the Grand Jury has finished - its been over 18 months....

So no indictments against Lance boohoo.

But if there were indictments, the Bonds case clearly shows it would have been silly for Lance to do a plea deal. Let a Judge and Jury decide.
Good thing for Barry - choosing to fight the charges.

Nothing like a spirit-crushing, money-sapping trial for our entertainment! But the feds almost NEVER go to trial when the odds are 50-50. They come loaded for awesomeness!