Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[Dr. Maserati]

That's because anyone who doesn't agree with the major detractors is automatically in the position of an Armstrong fan in the eyes of the vigilant and vocal majority on this thread. How many posts have I responded to already where one or another member says "Ah ha, it's the ___whatever argument."? Answer that in fairness to me.

Give me an example instead of leaving something blank - and then I will answer it.

All I have said is that it won't play the way the more vocally disaffected would like it to. I haven't said he hasn't done those things, I haven't said he's not been an overbearing f**k to many. I've also specifically said that anyone who markets themselves in the way he did deserves their own fall.

Amazing -so he has "done those things"..... yet you expect him to not suffer the consequences.

None of that implies, however, that I agree with all of the legal means by which some social retribution might be achieved.

Your objection has been noted - and will be ignored by the authorities, media, ordinary people etc

And, by the way, I answered your principal argument above via the Bonds/Stewart rubbish. They are individuals and are tried as such--clear-cut crimes: perjury, insider trading. One person per crime. The same won't happen in the case of Tailwind and it will be a mess to clarify to a public if it proceeds

You think people will be confused by a list of charges? I am sorry you have that little faith in people.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Proof please.

Weisel's in this up to his eyeballs. He ran a fully juiced domestic team and took it to the big league. Wiesel funded Amgen at some early stage. Whether or not there's a Weisel conviction is another question.

So, how is it possible that Wiesel is/was not involved in the varied scams?

Hold on - all Velodude said was that Weisel & Co." were not "instrumental" and gave some examples - and I would broadly agree.

Obviously Weisel funded a large part of the fraud and he would have known what was going on, but it is highly unlikely he or his company was involved in the day to day operations

 

[DirtyWorks]

Hold on - all Velodude said was that Weisel & Co." were not "instrumental" and gave some examples - and I would broadly agree.

Obviously Weisel funded a large part of the fraud and he would have known what was going on, but it is highly unlikely he or his company was involved in the day to day operations

Fair enough. it seems to me there will be lots of feigned ignorance and hiding behind the corporate veil/sheild then.

 

[Velodude]

Proof please.

Weisel's in this up to his eyeballs. He ran a fully juiced domestic team and took it to the big league. Alegations have been around for a decade or more that the introduction of PED's to the peloton have something to do with Wiesel as a result of his startup funding. Amgen being just one of the Weisel funded companies.

Whether or not there's a Weisel conviction is another question. He's a bully that knows how and when to break the rules and get away with it.

How is it possible that Wiesel is/was not involved in the many and varied crimes?

Weisel has a sordid track record but not noted as being involved in the below board level day to day functioning of the US Postal team. But he will be caught in the RICO net for being involved as a member of a criminal enterprise

There was a triumvirate that was responsible for the alleged high level doping program at US Postal.

Lance Armstrong who ran the team as his fiefdom and made all the substantive calls.

Johan Bruyneel who retired from cycling in 1998 at the age of 34 and was courted by "mere employee" Lance Armstrong to join the US Postal team as a no experience DS in 1999

One phone call from cancer survivor Lance Armstrong in 1998 changed everything for Johan Bruyneel. The recently retired Belgian cyclist, who won two stages in the Tour de France and wore the coveted Yellow Jersey, accepted the job as Sports Director for the underpowered American team of U.S. Postal Service. Not knowing much about the job, the tireless Bruyneel went to work - believing that he first could succeed in the job and then coming up with the ultimate plan for success, which included Lance Armstrong winning the Tour de France.

Dr Michele Ferrari, Lance Armstrong's "friend" and sports medico, who was paid as a consultant by US Postal and had an agreement with LA not to "prepare" any other GC contenders.

The payments to Ferrari out of US Postal's funds for consultant's fees is another concern for the LA/Tailwind defense lawyers if any team members testify Ferrari was providing professional advice on doping (re USPS contract no doping clause)

 

[LarryBudMelman]

In that spirit,

Thanks to the ancient language experts for solving the troll/moron question

.......Now onward with the craptastic spewing of nonsense

do the livestrong ads all over CN fund the legal defense team or cancer "awareness?"

 

[TexPat]

Man, it's all systems go in here today.
Keep up the good work folks.
Nice to know what aphronesis means, though I had an inkling.
Isn't irony hilarious sometimes?

 

[Polish]

do the livestrong ads all over CN fund the legal defense team or cancer "awareness?"

CN gets paid for those ads.
Those ads help fund the Clinic lol.
Biting the hand that feeds you. Tacky.

 

[LarryBudMelman]

I'm sorry!

CN gets paid for those ads.
Those ads help fund the Clinic lol.
Biting the hand that feeds you. Tacky.

You're right. I meant the sales of Livestrong stuff generated by the advertising on CN.

 

[Velodude]

EPO was being used at USPostal before Lance and Bruyneel.
If you believe Tyler. Believe. His "white lunch bag" 60 Minutes story is from the 1997 Tour de France.

No Lance or Johan or Michele back then.

Yes but US Postal were not using the organizational skills of LA to glue together a superior doping regime using the expertize of Bruyneel and Ferrari.

Bruyneel learned his trade under Manuel Saiz at Once. Once was one of the first teams to abandon the 1998 Tour when the Festina exposure caused too much heat in the kitchen for the suspect doping teams. The team was banned for the Tour in 1999

Bruyneel must have followed Saiz's model as the template for US Postal.

 

[ChrisE]

Yes but US Postal were not using the organizational skills of LA to glue together a superior doping regime using the expertize of Bruyneel and Ferrari.

Bruyneel learned his trade under Manuel Saiz at Once. Once was one of the first teams to abandon the 1998 Tour when the Festina exposure caused too much heat in the kitchen for the suspect doping teams. The team was banned for the Tour in 1999

Bruyneel must have followed Saiz's model as the template for US Postal.

USPS funds were probably used to purchase PEDs before 1999. There's always a "but, LA blah blah", isn't there?

 

[Polish]

Yes but US Postal were not using the organizational skills of LA to glue together a superior doping regime using the expertize of Bruyneel and Ferrari.

Bruyneel learned his trade under Manuel Saiz at Once. Once was one of the first teams to abandon the 1998 Tour when the Festina exposure caused too much heat in the kitchen for the suspect doping teams. The team was banned for the Tour in 1999

Bruyneel must have followed Saiz's model as the template for US Postal.

Yes, ONCE was doped to the gills in 1998.
Postal too.

But what is this "Saiz Model"
Saiz never won the Tour once let alone onetwothreefourfivesixseven.
Saiz Model = Fail.
ONCE should sue for sporting fraud. At least win one Tour fcol. Frauds.

 

[Oldman]

Yes but US Postal were not using the organizational skills of LA to glue together a superior doping regime using the expertize of Bruyneel and Ferrari.
Bruyneel learned his trade under Manuel Saiz at Once. Once was one of the first teams to abandon the 1998 Tour when the Festina exposure caused too much heat in the kitchen for the suspect doping teams. The team was banned for the Tour in 1999

Bruyneel must have followed Saiz's model as the template for US Postal.

Eddie B and Weisel were using the available expertise during Montgomery Subaru days on Masters team members. You don't think Thom was involved day to day? He really must have wondered why Eddie kept sticking him...

 

[Ferminal]

Yes, ONCE was doped to the gills in 1998.
Postal too.

But what is this "Saiz Model"
Saiz never won the Tour once let alone onetwothreefourfivesixseven.
Saiz Model = Fail.
ONCE should sue for sporting fraud. At least win one Tour fcol. Frauds.

Aren't you missing a couple?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

USPS funds were probably used to purchase PEDs before 1999. There's always a "but, LA blah blah", isn't there?

Probably? I would say almost definitely.

Of course Lances problem is he wasn't "just a rider on the team" as he tried to claim - thats why there will always be the "but"....

EPO was being used at USPostal before Lance and Bruyneel.
If you believe Tyler. Believe. His "white lunch bag" 60 Minutes story is from the 1997 Tour de France.

No Lance or Johan or Michele back then.

Hey I believe Tyler:

"The team management encouraged it [doping], yes," Hamilton said when asked where the motivation for doping came from.
"He was the biggest rider on the team and he helped to call the shots," he said of Armstrong's role in the team's alleged doping program.

 

[spetsa]

Eddie B and Weisel were using the available expertise during Montgomery Subaru days on Masters team members. You don't think Thom was involved day to day? He really must have wondered why Eddie kept sticking him...

Right you are. I wonder if our resident masters nat champ is reading this?

 

[Velodude]

Eddie B and Weisel were using the available expertise during Montgomery Subaru days on Masters team members. You don't think Thom was involved day to day? He really must have wondered why Eddie kept sticking him...

During 1999-2005 do you think that control freak Armstrong would be respondent as a servant or even an equal to his fellow board members?

Armstrong conducted himself with dictatorial control over the operations of the Tailwind owned teams, US Postal and Discovery. "Laser sharp managerial style" are words from an author who was an exclusive witness over many months to his master control over the team.

Thom Weisel would not have been welcome if he tried to assert himself over the control freak.

 

[spetsa]

During 1999-2005 do you think that control freak Armstrong would be respondent as a servant or even an equal to his fellow board members?

Armstrong conducted himself with dictatorial control over the operations of the Tailwind owned teams, US Postal and Discovery. "Laser sharp managerial style" are words from an author who was an exclusive witness over many months to his master control over the team.



Thom Weisel would not have been welcome if he tried to assert himself over the control freak.

Who's name was on the jersey. It has been said many times by a few, and not grasped by many, but LA isn't smart enough or old enough to have developed the complex situation they put themselves in. LA should be begging for a good deal. The real comedy will be to see if they all stand together or not.

 

[Velodude]

Who's name was on the jersey. It has been said many times by a few, and not grasped by many, but LA isn't smart enough or old enough to have developed the complex situation they put themselves in. LA should be begging for a good deal. The real comedy will be to see if they all stand together or not.

"It has been said many times by a few"

Who?

Extract from LA Confidentiel citing Phil Anderson's recognition of LA as a leader beyond cycling in his first European pro season in 1993

"As we stood there, Lance whispered in my ear," recalls Phil Anderson, the Australian who was then the team's most experienced racer. "He said: This is what bike racing is all about. This is what life's about.' There were thousands of people outside, the guy on the public address was hyping it up, there was a band playing, a big screen relayed the pictures and Lance just loved every moment of that. He was this bright-eyed guy who was now exactly where he wanted to be. He carried himself well: very confident. Outspoken too, he had that Texan brashness. If he wasn't going to lead a bike racing team, he would lead in politics or in business or wherever. He was like 'this is where I belong'."

 

[Race Radio]

Who's name was on the jersey. It has been said many times by a few, and not grasped by many, but LA isn't smart enough or old enough to have developed the complex situation they put themselves in. LA should be begging for a good deal. The real comedy will be to see if they all stand together or not.

A lot of truth in this.

Stapleton is a lawyer. He knows that the Feds are for real. If he is smart he will flip first and get the best deal.

The guy who is really screwed is Ferrari.

 

[DirtyWorks]

EPO was being used at USPostal before Lance and Bruyneel.
If you believe Tyler. Believe. His "white lunch bag" 60 Minutes story is from the 1997 Tour de France.

No Lance or Johan or Michele back then.

Go a little further back Polish old boy.

Carmichael and Wenzel were doping the kidz on USAC's team. The phrase, "take the dope or leave." was how the team was run. Armstrong took the dope because he didn't leave.

From there it was off to the Big Show and all the doping therein. The dope didn't kill Wonderboy on Carmichael's program, so what's the harm in continuing? Cancer is the harm.... But that story is too simple, right? No legend in that narrative so it can't be right. Would it help if we threw in some comic book villians?

 

[aphronesis]

Go a little further back Polish old boy.

Carmichael and Wenzel were doping the kidz on USAC's team. The phrase, "take the dope or leave." was how the team was run. Armstrong took the dope because he didn't leave.

From there it was off to the Big Show and all the doping therein. The dope didn't kill Wonderboy on Carmichael's program, so what's the harm in continuing? Cancer is the harm.... But that story is too simple, right? No legend in that narrative so it can't be right. Would it help if we threw in some comic book villians?

So is your argument that prosecuting LA will stop dumb teenage guys from doing dumb things to "succeed"?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Sure. But damage relative to what? 2006. The great year of retirement? Fine.

I agree with you generally about the fallout, but that means that a.) what you know has to be released and that b.) what you're seeing in slow motion is from a fairly exclusive perspective. It's not necessarily the case that any media outlets are going to drag it out step by step. It may be an implosion and that's all.

Again with the minimizing. What's the point of this effort? The guy and his buddies ran a years-long team-wide international doping program. And it's a "yeah, whatever. Might affect his mandatory vacation" crime spree?

BigTime media won't do a multi-part Sherman's March to the Sea. People don't really like consuming bad news. That's why it comes Friday afternoon when few consume it. "Everyone" knows cycling has a drug problem other sports are clean in comparison. (pause here for ironic effect) Best case scenario, SI, WSJ do another round of stories, each a little different with USAC/UCI finally implicated. There's no doubt Kimmage has more stories to tell. If we get lucky, another television news covers the story. It would be nice if more of the IOC's doping dirty laundry came out as a result, but that's another story still.

But please, tell us how it will pan out. Since us common folk cannot sample the rare air up at your level of intellect.

 

[aphronesis]

BigTime media won't do a multi-part slash and burn. This is cycling, not the NBA or college football. "Everyone" knows cycling has a drug problem other sports are clean in comparison. (pause here for ironic effect) Best case scenario, SI, WSJ do another round of stories, each a little different. There's no doubt Kimmage has more stories to tell. If we get lucky, another television news covers the story.

But please, tell us how it will pan out. Since us common folk cannot sample the rare air up at your level of intellect.

I claim no intellect. Much as it's been disparaged in the past several pages. I simply don't claim conviction. In all its senses--legal and otherwise. You denigrate yourself, that's your own business. All I did was disagree with the consensus.

Well, Kimmage himself has no axes to grind, would you say? Again, this is partiality.

 

[thehog]

Well, Kimmage himself has no axes to grind, would you say? Again, this is partiality.

I’m hoping he does have an axe to grind. It means any piece he writes will have more emotion and energy than anything he was allowed to write for the Sunday Times. Who knows Demand Media might pay him $25 for as blog entry?

 

[aphronesis]

I’m hoping he does have an axe to grind. It means any piece he writes will have more emotion and energy than anything he was allowed to write for the Sunday Times. Who knows Demand Media might pay him $25 for as blog entry?

it's not an axe market brother. i don't read blogs. nor will the indignant public (squaring the circle).