Official Thread: Stage 17 Bourg-Saint-Maurice to Le Grand-Bornand

[OnTheButton]

The undying loyalty to Lance is a little absurd. The guy is incredible, menatlly tougher than most men and as physically fit as anybody we will ever see on a bike. But to think that a 37yr old in a sport where 34 is 'getting long in the tooth' can just drop back on the scene and win the TdF is delusional at best. Is he one of the top 10 riders in the world right now - absolutely. Is he in the same all around league as the Saxo twins or AC - no. And that is ok. Its called life. There is nothing anybody on Astana 'did' to cause him to lose time. Its called carmps, loss of a few weeks of training, and age. Oh and there is the best all around rider in the world on his team too. Lance is incredible, but I get tired of the folks that would come out of his nose if he stopped short. Face the facts, it is 2009 not 2003. People should quit vilifying everyone else cause there fairy tale is not working out.

 

[fulcrum]

That's not the same thing.
Postal/Discovery was organized specifically around Armstrong.
Astana was organized around Vino, originally.

This year's Astana Tour Team was more like a T-Mobile team from the past, or even CSC in the past, or Saxxo from this year. Even Lotto is going with dual leadership, Garmin too.

Astana had 4 cards to play on Day 1. Postal/Discovery never had even two cards to play (where a card is someone with a reasonable chance to be on the podium because he's been there before). If Zubeldia was in better form, it could have been 5.

And you have to earn leadership. Yes, AC has one three Grand Tours, including the TDF title handed to him after the real winner was dqed. But he has not earned leadership. Ullrich had won the Tour in the past too, but he did not always have a team dedicated to him.

You guys act like this one-leader-that-everyone-supports rule is written in stone and anyone not playing by that rule is a bad guy. It's not that simple.

If AC is good enough, then he should be able to find a team and sponsor that is willing to dedicate the entire organization to him. But he had not done that yet, and certainly not with Astana.

And you can't blame Lance for being able to organize such a team/sponsor for himself for next year, though I'm sure you will, and you will call him a hypocrite for doing it.

What are you talking about?! On stage 17 there was only one team leader: Contador. Even JB and Lance agreed with that. Your "T-Mobile from the past" comparisson is pointless.

 

[Amsterhammer]

I can't figure out why Lance fans are not happy about today's proceedings.
If Kloden hadn't "bonked", (again I see the pros casually using this term for getting dropped) he would be at 0:02:27.
With His ITTing ability, and Lance a minute and a half back on Schleckette, he (LA) would only take whatever lead he may get tomorrow, onto the Ventoux.
Even Frank S will still be close enough to be a threat, at this point.
So, it's a dangerous game, trying to fulfill fanboy dreams of a podium whitewash.

Several points - I'm perfectly happy. LA did better than I expected, and nowhere near as badly as I thought might be possible. His burst at the end possibly put him in with a serious shot at a podium spot, which he quite clearly understands is the best that he can hope for.

As for the "fanboy dreams of a podium whitewash", I would have thought any true 'fanboy' would only be concerned with where LA finishes, and not really give a toss where anyone else does.

The only people who would welcome a complete Astana podium are Kazakhs.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

What are you talking about?! On stage 17 there was only one team leader: Contador. Even JB and Lance agreed with that. Your "T-Mobile from the past" comparisson is pointless.

You're still using the peculiar standard set by the Postal/Disco team around Lance Armstrong as some kind of measure of how teams are supposed to behave. In reality, that was a very unique organization.

You noted that only Klodi stayed back for AC when he had a mechanical today. Yeah, USP/Disco would have left 2-4 guys back there for LA, but what other team would do that? Maybe Astana for Vino in the early Astana days? But there again, that was a rare organization. It's a mistake to hold the 2009 Astana organization up to that standard. That's just not what it is, for better or for worse. It's a more typical organization. AC can expect about as much support from his team as any other leader in this year's Tour can expect from his team, and not as much as LA got, or Vino got (or even what Flandis got from Phonak).

Total team dedication to one leader on GC is what you seem to be expecting out of Astana. Why?

 

[indurain666]

- I'm perfectly happy. LA did better than I expected, and nowhere near as badly as I thought might be possible. s.

hhehehe really? nobody buys this BS...you blew a gasket after AC dropped your idol in Verbier

 

[indurain666]

You're still using the peculiar standard set by the Postal/Disco team around Lance Armstrong as some kind of measure of how teams are supposed to behave. In reality, that was a very unique organization.

You noted that only Klodi stayed back for AC when he had a mechanical today. Yeah, USP/Disco would have left 2-4 guys back there for LA, but what other team would do that? Maybe Astana for Vino in the early Astana days? But there again, that was a rare organization. It's a mistake to hold the 2009 Astana organization up to that standard. That's just not what it is, for better or for worse. It's a more typical organization. AC can expect about as much support from his team as any other leader in this year's Tour can expect from his team, and not as much as LA got, or Vino got (or even what Flandis got from Phonak).

Total team dedication to one leader on GC is what you seem to be expecting out of Astana. Why?

oh dear...I love this forum always gives me a good laugh after work

 

[fulcrum]

You're still using the peculiar standard set by the Postal/Disco team around Lance Armstrong as some kind of measure of how teams are supposed to behave. In reality, that was a very unique organization.

No it wasn't peculiar. 90% if not more of all teams entering the tour the France come in with a clear team leader. So when at stage 17, Contador was named team leader by everybody, it was actually a very standard team setup at that point.

Total team dedication to one leader on GC is what you seem to be expecting out of Astana. Why?

Because we are talking about professional cycling and the TdF, not an episode of "herding of the cats".

 

[Ninety5rpm]

oh dear...I love this forum always gives me a good laugh after work

When you've lost your point, don't concede. Instead, try to obscure the situation with ridicule and hope nobody notices. Good strategy.

No it wasn't peculiar. 90% if not more of all teams entering the tour the France come in with a clear team leader. So when at stage 17, Contador was named team leader by everybody, it was actually a very standard team setup at that point.

A clear team leader and total team dedication for that leader are two different things. The former is very common, the latter is not.

Most Tour teams have multiple goals, including winning stages (by riders other than the clear team leader), other jerseys, helping more than one guy on GC, etc. A team fully dedicated to supporting their one leader for GC, ala Postal/Disco for LA, is quite rare. Not even one team is organized like that in this year's Tour, yet you guys are chastising Astana for not being that way.

 

[bchambers]

That's not the same thing.
Postal/Discovery was organized specifically around Armstrong.
Astana was organized around Vino, originally.

This year's Astana Tour Team was more like a T-Mobile team from the past, or even CSC in the past, or Saxxo from this year. Even Lotto is going with dual leadership, Garmin too.

Astana had 4 cards to play on Day 1. Postal/Discovery never had even two cards to play (where a card is someone with a reasonable chance to be on the podium because he's been there before). If Zubeldia was in better form, it could have been 5.

And you have to earn leadership. Yes, AC has one three Grand Tours, including the TDF title handed to him after the real winner was dqed. But he has not earned leadership. Ullrich had won the Tour in the past too, but he did not always have a team dedicated to him.

You guys act like this one-leader-that-everyone-supports rule is written in stone and anyone not playing by that rule is a bad guy. It's not that simple.

If AC is good enough, then he should be able to find a team and sponsor that is willing to dedicate the entire organization to him. But he had not done that yet, and certainly not with Astana.

And you can't blame Lance for being able to organize such a team/sponsor for himself for next year, though I'm sure you will, and you will call him a hypocrite for doing it.

It's NOT all about Lance. It's about winning the TdF. It's not team Lance or team Alberto - it's team Astana and Contador has the yellow jersey. You're right in that rarely has a team required total subservience to a "leader" like Lance required, as evident that Hamilton was the only teammate given Lance's "permission" to leave. However, though Astana is not required to be subservient to Contador, they are not supposed to work against him. What would have happened to Contador today if he had had a mechanical - JB was behind Lance. Contador would have been forced to wait on JB on the side of the road, which would have been merely an updated version of LeMond/Hinault. Lance was never going to win this Tour and this team was not built around him, he returned late in the game after Astana had made its TdF commitment to Contador just as it made its ToC commitment to Leipheimer. I guess JB is just upset by the fact that Contador is willing to think for himself when no one else will back him up. JB is just following the money ... Lance. What a pity.

 

[manolo]

...just wonderful team work by Contador. Let's knock the teammates off the podium, so they can concentrate on just helping him.

The kid was reckless. You don't do that to a teammate who has podium aspirations. The Schlecks were going strong. What did he expect? To reach the top alone and time trial 10 ks alone? Man, he should have at least tried to let Kloden vie for the stage. Stupid. Until today he was my hero. He may be talented, but pretty reckless. I hope LA and KLoden get to the podium and stay there. No thanks to Contador. What an a$$...

 

[hfer07]

It's NOT all about Lance. It's about winning the TdF. It's not team Lance or team Alberto - it's team Astana and Contador has the yellow jersey. You're right in that rarely has a team required total subservience to a "leader" like Lance required, as evident that Hamilton was the only teammate given Lance's "permission" to leave. However, though Astana is not required to be subservient to Contador, they are not supposed to work against him. What would have happened to Contador today if he had had a mechanical - JB was behind Lance. Contador would have been forced to wait on JB on the side of the road, which would have been merely an updated version of LeMond/Hinault. Lance was never going to win this Tour and this team was not built around him, he returned late in the game after Astana had made its TdF commitment to Contador just as it made its ToC commitment to Leipheimer. I guess JB is just upset by the fact that Contador is willing to think for himself when no one else will back him up. JB is just following the money ... Lance. What a pity.

Agreed 100%

 

[indurain666]

Agreed 100%

+1, JB gave an interview to Spanish press:

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/depo...nce/Alberto/elpepidep/20090722elpepidep_3/Tes

he basically said that Lance is his friend, and he just doesn't have chemistry with Alberto. What an unprofessional douchebag

He also said that he has always have problems with Alberto and don't expect to have his lover and AC on the same team..duh..

 

[hfer07]

+1, JB gave an interview to Spanish press:

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/depo...nce/Alberto/elpepidep/20090722elpepidep_3/Tes

he basically said that Lance is his friend, and he just doesn't have chemistry with Alberto. What an unprofessional douchebag

He also said that he has always have problems with Alberto and don't expect to have his lover and AC on the same team..duh..

Thanks for the link--that interview explains it all: the problem for AC is that he's stuck with him for another year, so JB & LA can exploit his success as much as they can and finally let him go either with a failed doping test or a huge money payout by whatever team picks him... just sad

 

[Xersa1]

It's not about AC - LA - JB

All this back and forth about LA and AC and JB. It should be about AC and Kloden. It's ironic that it was this finish in which LA went out with Floyd Landis and then tried to give Landis the win in return for all his hard work. Kloden has been there for AC the whole tour and he gets repaid by being left behind by his own teammate's acceleration. It's not dissimilar to Hincapie not getting Yellow the other day. There is some honor and history in the sport that should be respected - you notice it was Frank Schleck that won the stage not Andy - because Andy knows how to play the game - just like LA for Floyd. I guess CA feels a little like Sastre - some form of disrespect.

 

[bchambers]

+1, JB gave an interview to Spanish press:

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/depo...nce/Alberto/elpepidep/20090722elpepidep_3/Tes

he basically said that Lance is his friend, and he just doesn't have chemistry with Alberto. What an unprofessional douchebag

He also said that he has always have problems with Alberto and don't expect to have his lover and AC on the same team..duh..

Thank you for the link! Lance has been a money machine for JB and plenty of others for a decade, which equates to friendship for some of the less desirable types like JB. Wait ... I thought all of it was to "raise awareness and fight cancer". I haven't heard the first thing about cancer from Lance over the past 2 weeks unless it was used as a way to divert a tough question. The only awareness raised has been the questionable ethics and motives Lance has been using for years and the only fighting I've witnessed has been Lance fighting age and reality.

 

[fulcrum]

When you've lost your point, don't concede. Instead, try to obscure the situation with ridicule and hope nobody notices. Good strategy.


A clear team leader and total team dedication for that leader are two different things. The former is very common, the latter is not.

Most Tour teams have multiple goals, including winning stages (by riders other than the clear team leader), other jerseys, helping more than one guy on GC, etc. A team fully dedicated to supporting their one leader for GC, ala Postal/Disco for LA, is quite rare. Not even one team is organized like that in this year's Tour, yet you guys are chastising Astana for not being that way.

You are the only one that has brought up "total team dedication". You make up your own stuff and then you argue against it. Very quixotic.

 

[fulcrum]

The kid was reckless. You don't do that to a teammate who has podium aspirations. The Schlecks were going strong. What did he expect? To reach the top alone and time trial 10 ks alone? Man, he should have at least tried to let Kloden vie for the stage. Stupid. Until today he was my hero. He may be talented, but pretty reckless. I hope LA and KLoden get to the podium and stay there. No thanks to Contador. What an a$$...

LA and Kloden are AC's domestiques. There is no room in the podium for domestiques. This is how the podium goes: 1- Team1 leader 2-Team2 leader 3-Team3 leader. The podium is for leaders. Domestiques should focus on carrying water uphill and helping his team leader. Maybe win a stage here and there.

 

[Azdak6]

All this back and forth about LA and AC and JB. It should be about AC and Kloden. It's ironic that it was this finish in which LA went out with Floyd Landis and then tried to give Landis the win in return for all his hard work. Kloden has been there for AC the whole tour and he gets repaid by being left behind by his own teammate's acceleration. It's not dissimilar to Hincapie not getting Yellow the other day. There is some honor and history in the sport that should be respected - you notice it was Frank Schleck that won the stage not Andy - because Andy knows how to play the game - just like LA for Floyd. I guess CA feels a little like Sastre - some form of disrespect.

Yeah, I'm sure Andy would have waited patiently by the side of the road had Frank S fell apart like Kloden. While the other two might have "allowed" frank to finish first, he earned every bit of the victory with his riding.

Contador probably made a mistake, but it was just that--a mistake. Had Kloden been stronger at the time, he could have easily ridden back when Contador shut down the attack. It may have been a dumb move, but it hardly justifies all the drama and bathos.

 

[pedaling squares]

LA and Kloden are AC's domestiques. There is no room in the podium for domestiques. This is how the podium goes: 1- Team1 leader 2-Team2 leader 3-Team3 leader. The podium is for leaders. Domestiques should focus on carrying water uphill and helping his team leader. Maybe win a stage here and there.

Well.... they should be AC's worker bees, but there hasn't been a bit of work done by Astana that wasn't designed to help LA. Usually AC was also a benefactor, but not always. Dumb move by AC today, as others have pointed out, but I don't consider him either stupid or reckless. He knows that his DS doesn't have his best interests in mind even though he has proven himself the strongest.

 

[LargusMeans]

Kloden has been there for AC the whole tour and he gets repaid by being left behind by his own teammate's acceleration.

Ummm what race you watching>? Kloden dragged LA up Andorra, up Verbier and was last in line today on the last 2 climbs following AC, great support he's giving.

 

[badboyberty]

I don't know what what was said, but Kloden and Contador were talking to each other only moments before Contador's attack. I suspect Kloden told Contador he was fried so Contador did what Contador does, he attacked. Had Kloden just slid off the back of the bunch the Schlecks would have attacked so Contador had nothing to lose by taking the upper hand and attacking before he was outnumbered.

Had Contador managed to distance the Schlecks with the attack I'm sure everyone criticising him would be applauding his brave move to grab an extra stage victory.

I love this, last year the armchair riders criticised Cadel for not attacking and this year it's Alberto's turn to get crucified for actually giving the fans what we want, some action.

 

[fulcrum]

Ummm what race you watching>? Kloden dragged LA up Andorra, up Verbier and was last in line today on the last 2 climbs following AC, great support he's giving.

If Heras or Rubiera would have had the same output as domestiques LA and AK are showing in this tour, they would have been fired by US Postal. Where is the tempo riding up hill from Lance? Or Kloden? Who are they trying to fool?

And then they bitch when AC gets a couple of insurance minutes on his "teammates". Bwaahhhh! He is screwing up with our 1-2-3 podium... bwaaahhhh! What a joke!

 

[dadoorsron]

the idiot in question, who is young enough toi wait for the domestique who never help him a bit , just did what talent allows him to do.. surge when he wanted to and then notice his so called teamate had nothing to respond.. in case you did not notice.. the enemi was already ahead.. i suposed you wanted to see the yellow jersey wait for the team lantern? oh well.. he sort of did..

Contador has a 2 plus minute lead on the two guys he was riding with. He made a move and dropped his teammate that was riding in the red for the last couple of K. If you pay attention to Klodens cadance you will notice it gets a bit slower while he was sitting on in the back. Kloden and Contador didn't have to pull. Contador is the race leader and Kloden would not pull the schleck boys up the hill. If you want to win the race the schleck boys needed to get away.

 

[knewcleardaze]

Thank you for the link! Lance has been a money machine for JB and plenty of others for a decade, which equates to friendship for some of the less desirable types like JB. Wait ... I thought all of it was to "raise awareness and fight cancer". I haven't heard the first thing about cancer from Lance over the past 2 weeks unless it was used as a way to divert a tough question. The only awareness raised has been the questionable ethics and motives Lance has been using for years and the only fighting I've witnessed has been Lance fighting age and reality.

I couldn't have said it any better. Brief and to the point. Well said.
I found it curious that Armstrong said he was returning to raise awareness for the fight against cancer.One would think if one wanted to bring publicity and attention to a cause, they would mention such cause on a daily basis, thus raising awareness.

 

[BroDeal]

I don't know what what was said, but Kloden and Contador were talking to each other only moments before Contador's attack. I suspect Kloden told Contador he was fried so Contador did what Contador does, he attacked. Had Kloden just slid off the back of the bunch the Schlecks would have attacked so Contador had nothing to lose by taking the upper hand and attacking before he was outnumbered.

Had Contador managed to distance the Schlecks with the attack I'm sure everyone criticising him would be applauding his brave move to grab an extra stage victory.

I love this, last year the armchair riders criticised Cadel for not attacking and this year it's Alberto's turn to get crucified for actually giving the fans what we want, some action.

You have to look at this from the proper perspective. You see, the LA/Astana fans (and to them Astana means everyone on the team except for Contador) gauge everything that happens based on their hatred of Contador. These haters just cannot give Contador props for anything he does. They will grasp at anything they can find to criticize El Pistolero. It is sad that they could not find any satisfaction during the best stage so far in an extremely boring Tour.