Official Thread: Stage 17 Bourg-Saint-Maurice to Le Grand-Bornand

[ruamruam]

Contador clearly isolated himself. Not a very smart move. He is very lucky the Schlecks didnt have anything in the tank to throw at him or could have found himself losing a minute or two to them and quite possibly be in second place.
Contador is very lucky he has a good team around him and a smart DS or the Schlecks would be tag teaming him all the way to Paris.

This is absolute rubbish. If the Schlecks had started jumping Contador they would have gained less time on Armstrong, Kloden, Wiggins etc. They had no choice but to work together and gain as much time as they could. They knew they couldn't have got rid of Contador so were forced to drag him along to the finish.

Contador's 'smart' DS didn't even bother to follow him in the car. Instead he followed his domestique Armstrong. Says an awful lot about Bruyneel's loyalty.

ruamruam

 

[Anonymous]

Cycling is a business, Johan is the boss, Contador did not listen to him and possibly, since we will never know what would have happened, removed Astana riders from the GC podium; thus, hurting the business. You guys just don't get it - it is not just a sport. The question is not can Contador truly trust, it is can the man in charge trust him. Go do that to your boss and see if he is not happy...

You know what, I am sick and tired of all of the Astana drama machine.

1. Why should Contador respect JB. Johan allowed Lance back on a team built to help Contador win GT's. He then did nothing to put Armstrong in his true place, as a helper for Contador.

2. The Hog is a weak DS. His team is fractured because he has shown no backbone as a manager. He allows his diva to tweet his feelings about a team member without saying anything. He himself clearly expresses IN THE MEDIA things about Contador that should be left behind the bus door.

3. The Hog and The Uniballer have done everything they can to isolate Contador in the media. They both know he will ride for a rival team next year, and that is what they want.

4. Contador himself remains quiet about most of this, but has ridden like like petulant child even before this tour. His attack today was a move made by a man without a team. I believe that The Hog and The Uniballer bear the greatest part of the blame for that.

5. Screw the whole Tour team because none of them (with the exception of Kloden, Rast and Zubeldia) are people sportsman should emulate. Look at the way Wiggins and VDV conduct themselves in the media and as riders. THAT is how you ride and act with class.

6. Their drama/soap opera shtick is tiresome and juvenile. In reality, they all deserve each other. My hope is that next year will see the rise of a rider that can drop all of them.

Unfortunately, next year is going to be the year of diva driven drama. The Hog and The Uniballer will have their own team stacked with great help. Contador will have weaker help, but stronger legs. I hope something negative happens with both teams and neither is able to participate in the 2010 Tour de France. I for one want to watch a race, not "As the World Turns."

Again, let me reiterate, fuck the whole lot of them!

Edit: and lets not even get into the just deserts of having to deal with Vino. Again, you reap what you sow. They sow drama and reap drama. They all truly do deserve each other in every way.

 

[Bala Verde]

Simple - because he wasn't able to. I'm not suggesting that LA hung with Wiggo as part of the greater plan. I'm sure he would have gone with Frank if he had been able to, but he wasn't - if for no other reason than because he was virtually standing still when Frank went.

I believe that LA has admitted that he is no longer able to respond to sudden changes of pace the way he used to. Frank's burst was too good for him at that moment.

I just reviewed the 'sur place' and Frank's attack. I think Armstrong, who was in the lead, wanted to force Wiggins into the lead. Armstrong slowed down a little, because he knew he shouldn't be riding tempo with Wiggins on his wheel. When Arsmtrong slowed down, Frank decided - smart because he came from behind Armstrong could barely see him, and he would have had to accelerate from an almost sur place to 25k an hour - to attack and shed both Wiggins and Armstrong.

I think this had little to do with a pre-determined plan between Schleck and Armstrong. Frank had more in the tank, and when Armstrong slowed down a little, he saw an opportunity to ride to the main group to assist Andy.

I only wonder if Armstrong hadn't slowed down, if Frank had been able to make such a bold move. Armstrong was still riding a good tempo, which neutralises attacks best...

 

[Anonymous]

2. The Hog is a weak DS.

A strong DS would have how many GT wins under their belt?

What is the number?

I really want to know.

 

[Azdak6]

Simple - because he wasn't able to. I'm not suggesting that LA hung with Wiggo as part of the greater plan. I'm sure he would have gone with Frank if he had been able to, but he wasn't - if for no other reason than because he was virtually standing still when Frank went.

I believe that LA has admitted that he is no longer able to respond to sudden changes of pace the way he used to. Frank's burst was too good for him at that moment.

It looked like Armstrong was assigned to cover F Schleck's moves. Schleck had attacked twice before, and Armstrong was on him instantly. When Schleck got away, he made a brilliant move and Armstrong was caught a little unawares. It was such a powerful move that by the time Armstrong reacted, Schleck was too far up the road and had Armstrong tried to go after him, he would have pulled Wiggins back up to Contador (assuming they both could have kept up, which is unknown). So Armstrong sat on Wiggins' wheel, as he should have. Armstrong tried to get away once, but Wiggins countered, so he had to let up--for the same reason as earlier. With 1 km left in the climb Armstrong must have determined that Wiggins was tiring, so he attacked again to try and gain back time on the Schlecks.

My estimation is that Armstrong was stronger than Wiggins and had to hold back while following Wiggins' wheel. I doubt that he was strong enough to bridge all the way back to Contador, but we'll never know. I think he is stronger than he was on stage 7, and it's obvious that he has a "burst" of sorts that he totally lacked in the Giro.

 

[dadoorsron]

What a great stage today!

Wiggins: Had to break at some point! only finsihing one tour in his career and being 20 pounds lighter had to take effect sooner then later! Couldn't follow the wheels of the schlecks and did what he could to stay in contact. A good ride from him but, not good enough. He will make up all the time he lost today in the TT plus a minute or so if he didn't hurt himself to bad and recovers tonight he will be back on the podium tomorrow. Looking at the grand scheme of things you wonder if the move by the schleck brothers actually had impact on the overall race.

Andy Schleck and Frank schleck: Road a very good one day race to get themselves ahead of riders that should crush them by minutes in the TT tomorrow. Everything they gained today will go out the window tomorrow. However, They did need to do this tactically because if they just road on wheels today They would fall 5-6 minutes behind 3rd place. It would be harder to make up 5-6 minutes on Ventoux instead of 2-3 minutes they are likely to be done after the TT from a podium spot. There Yellow jersey hopes are done unless Contador crashes tomorrow or blows up on Ventoux and loses 5-6 minutes. In the scheme of things if both don't make the podium then the moves today where just a waste of time. Like I have said before. Unless these two learn to TT they will never win the Tour De France. The Giro and Vuelta probably could be easier for them to win.

Kloden: Man he is riding very very good. He popped at the end and it was sad to see his own teammate blow him off the back. Kloden if he can, will more then likely will be riding with Lance and Johan next year on there team. A podium place for Kloden will be hard to get. IF contador paid attention to buryneel the likelyhood of astana getting all 3 podium spots would of been more possible. However, with immaturity he hurt those chances. Kloden has a chance he's not to far from 3rd and should put 2-3 minutes into the schleck boys.

Armstrong: Lance rode very tactical and very within his abilities. His move to drop wiggins was excellent and catching Kloden was impressive specially when he was almost 2 minutes ahead of him. Armstrong will have to put in two efforts similar to his efforts in 99-2005 in the final time Trial. If he can manage to do that kind of effort he should lock himself onto a possible podium in paris. He will need atleast a minute and half on the schleck boys for the ride on Ventoux. If Lance may go on the break on ventoux and try to get a stage win. You never know. A podium for lance looks hard for him to pull off though. He has to put in to big efforts to pull it off.

Contador: What and the hell was this idoit thinking?! Why would you attack and isolate yourself on a climb? Why would he attack? Wiggins was almost 3 minutes down at that point so the excuse of putting time into wiggins is ***. I really think that Contador is scared of Kloden and armstrong for that final TT. Those two guys could put serious time into his lead if they were closer. Another immature move by Contador. Great legs but should Not of attacked he's 2 minutes ahead of the schleck riding next to them. He will put a minute or two into both tomorrow extending his lead to 4 minutes. will have a nice buffer for Ventoux just incase something happens. Great Talent dumb as a box of rocks!

 

[Anonymous]

A strong DS would have how many GT wins under their belt?

What is the number?

I really want to know.

A strong DS or coach or any sporting director would be a LEADER. When you communicate through the media with your riders or players, it is because on a personal level, you are a weak person. Lance has always run that show anyway. Jonan was given the money to acquire riders. Who couldn't have won with his teams? Even a dumbass like you would win with his teams.

He is a weak person, which is clearly shown through his actions.

 

[Anonymous]

A strong DS or coach or any sporting director would be a LEADER. When you communicate through the media with your riders or players, it is because on a personal level, you are a weak person. Lance has always run that show anyway. Jonan was given the money to acquire riders. Who couldn't have won with his teams? Even a dumbass like you would win with his teams.

He is a weak person, which is clearly shown through his actions.

His actions have netted 10 GT wins (closing in on 11).

Who do you consider to be a better DS over the last decade?

 

[goober]

Cycling is a sport. Astana has one goal: win the tour. Contador is going to win the tour. Winning attracks sponsors. And that is good for a team.

And if you wanna start going up the line, Johan is an employee, not the boss. The bosses are in Kazhakistan and they don't seem to think very highly of Johan. In fact they already told him that if he didn't want Vino in the team, he could go take a hike.

Johan is the Director, an employee, and the boss of the riders. Yes Johan has bosses. And his bosses report to others that fund the team. And yes, the bosses boss can tell the boss what to do as in any business so your point is mute.

Astana has a primary (or ultimate) goal to win the tour; but, you seriously believe they don't have a goal to win stages, place other riders on the podium, etc.? You do not think that 'attracks' more sponsors? Johan was doing right by asking Contator not to attack. There was no reason. Contrador again did not listen to the boss with the experience and knowledge; hence, 'he still has a lot to learn'. Absolutely nothing against his ability, he is the strongest and deserves the win the GC.

The whole Vino/Johan thing is another story...

 

[Anonymous]

His actions have netted 10 GT wins (closing in on 11).

Who do you consider to be a better DS over the last decade?

A monkey with one eye and a bad case of the clap could have won with those teams. Again, he makes good decisions about who to acquire. (especially when he is told who to acquire by his main rider) He makes incredibly weak decisions when it comes to dealing with his riders. He is a weak man who was allowed his position because a strong narcissist rider saw that he could run the show because of The Hogs personal foibles.

He is the luckiest man in cycling. He is also a limp wristed drama queen.

 

[Anonymous]

A monkey with one eye and a bad case of the clap could have won with those teams. Again, he makes good decisions about who to acquire. (especially when he is told who to acquire by his main rider) He makes incredibly weak decisions when it comes to dealing with his riders. He is a weak man who was allowed his position because a strong narcissist rider saw that he could run the show because of The Hogs personal foibles.

He is the luckiest man in cycling. He is also a limp wristed drama queen.

Well, he made multi-millions in the process.

Why weren't you doing his job for less? That'd be thought for money, no?

You are quite the critic, but what, exactly, do you have to offer to the cycling world?

 

[fulcrum]

Johan is the Director, an employee, and the boss of the riders. Yes Johan has bosses. And his bosses report to others that fund the team. And yes, the bosses boss can tell the boss what to do as in any business so your point is mute.

Astana has a primary (or ultimate) goal to win the tour; but, you seriously believe they don't have a goal to win stages, place other riders on the podium, etc.? You do not think that 'attracks' more sponsors? Johan was doing right by asking Contator not to attack. There was no reason. Contrador again did not listen to the boss with the experience and knowledge; hence, 'he still has a lot to learn'. Absolutely nothing against his ability, he is the strongest and deserves the win the GC.

The whole Vino/Johan thing is another story...

Johan is not the boss of the riders, Johan is Lance's spineless little ***** that has 3 other priorities in mind ahead of Astana's interest as a sponsor. Contador will win the Tour for Astana. Contador has won stages for Astana. He went to win another stage but it didn't pan out. If JB had clear goals on his mind, he would have told Contador to attack if he could and leave everybody behind and win the stage. He would support his strongest rider. He would stop holding him back at every corner. It was a 2 km effort that is hardly going to sap a 26 year old's recovery for tomorrow.

 

[bchambers]

Tired

I am genuinely tired of hearing how "uncooperative" Contador has been. He is in a race and on a team that obviously does not support him. With JB and LA attached at the hip and all of the media hype around LA, Contador has been pushed aside - not a great idea when he happens to be the best stage racer in the world at the moment. Contador's job is to win. I understand very well the team dynamics in cycling, but Contador's job is not to lose time to help LA save face and at least finish on the podium, especially when LA has backed out on countless promises to Contador. Contador is wearing the yellow jersey, which means that he is not a nameless member of Armstrong's entourage, he is the leader of the TdF. LA has made it clear that now he is only looking towards 2010 - I guess 2009 is over since he is not going to win. I can only imagine how miserable it would be for any team owner, Astana in this case, to have to try and work with JB and LA, their arrogance, their egos, and their childish and unprofessional bullying tactics. I cannot blame Astana for wishing JB adieu regardless of their impending Vino catastrophe. Unfortunately, everyone has allowed JB and LA to push people around for a decade and, sadly, it seems it is not going to end anytime soon. LA could have done so much good for all forms of cycling here in the US and around the world in his retirement. Instead, he made an *** out of himself on numerous levels and then decided he needed an ego boost and returned to a sport that was making positive new strides with a new generation. Sorry about my apparent rant, but I cannot help the fact that I find it infuriating to hear a DS damn his yellow jersey-wearing, tour-leading star for doing the best job he can. At least he has not instructed Contador to stop and wait on the side of the road for LA ... yet.

 

[Dedelou]

renaming this Tour.

How about we rename this Tour de France: Tour de Wait. It seems condator spends his time and talents waiting to make it look like lance had a chance to dance to the podium

 

[bchambers]

How about we rename this Tour de France: Tour de Wait. It seems condator spends his time and talents waiting to make it look like lance had a chance to dance to the podium

Well said!

 

[Anonymous]

Well, he made multi-millions in the process.

Why weren't you doing his job for less? That'd be thought for money, no?

You are quite the critic, but what, exactly, do you have to offer to the cycling world?

Oh, I have a real job. I would never take a job a half eaten corn muffin could do. As to his millions, he made the greatest majority of it on one guy. Interestingly, that guy holds the stings attached to all of The Hog's extremities. Plus, I wouldn't have allowed the "medical program" ergo, no job on The Uniballers team.

 

[Dedelou]

lady luck

i knew it all along: it was she who made him. Lady luck once more.. first she gave him the tour, than the giro.. and when he was not looking she slipped the vuelta on him.. and today.,. whooooo she gave him a set of weakling brothers to carry him to the top.. Lady luck really loves AC.. she is so hot

 

[Bala Verde]

Interestingly, that guy holds the stings attached to all of The Hog's extremities.

That should be a relief for the Hog, as it has been proven that prolonged abuse of medication can affect ones 'virility'...

 

[Mellow Velo]

Well, with VdV 8th at over 8 minutes, here are the final movers and shakers:
1 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana 72:27:09
2 Andy Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 0:02:26
3 Fränk Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 0:03:25
4 Lance Armstrong (USA) Astana 0:03:55
5 Andreas Klöden (Ger) Astana 0:04:44
6 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Garmin - Slipstream 0:04:53
7 Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas 0:05:09

I can't figure out why Lance fans are not happy about today's proceedings.
If Kloden hadn't "bonked", (again I see the pros casually using this term for getting dropped) he would be at 0:02:27.
With His ITTing ability, and Lance a minute and a half back on Schleckette, he (LA) would only take whatever lead he may get tomorrow, onto the Ventoux.
Even Frank S will still be close enough to be a threat, at this point.
So, it's a dangerous game, trying to fulfill fanboy dreams of a podium whitewash.

 

[Anonymous]

Well, with VdV 8th at over 8 minutes, here are the final movers and shakers:
1 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana 72:27:09
2 Andy Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 0:02:26
3 Fränk Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 0:03:25
4 Lance Armstrong (USA) Astana 0:03:55
5 Andreas Klöden (Ger) Astana 0:04:44
6 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Garmin - Slipstream 0:04:53
7 Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas 0:05:09

I can't figure out why Lance fans are not happy about today's proceedings.
If Kloden hadn't "bonked", (again I see the pros casually using this term for getting dropped) he would be at 0:02:27.
With His ITTing ability, and Lance a minute and a half back on Schleckette, he (LA) would only take whatever lead he may get tomorrow, onto the Ventoux.
Even Frank S will still be close enough to be a threat, at this point.
So, it's a dangerous game, trying to fulfill fanboy dreams of a podium whitewash.

They are just following the talking points of their hero. Anyone better than that guy is going to be hounded by sad people who need someone to live vicariously through.

 

[Dedelou]

you must be talking about the idiot in yellow..

What a great stage today!

Contador: What and the hell was this idoit thinking?! Why would you attack and isolate yourself on a climb? Why would he attack? Wiggins was almost 3 minutes down at that point so the excuse of putting time into wiggins is ***. I really think that Contador is scared of Kloden and armstrong for that final TT. Those two guys could put serious time into his lead if they were closer. Another immature move by Contador. Great legs but should Not of attacked he's 2 minutes ahead of the schleck riding next to them. He will put a minute or two into both tomorrow extending his lead to 4 minutes. will have a nice buffer for Ventoux just incase something happens. Great Talent dumb as a box of rocks!

the idiot in question, who is young enough toi wait for the domestique who never help him a bit , just did what talent allows him to do.. surge when he wanted to and then notice his so called teamate had nothing to respond.. in case you did not notice.. the enemi was already ahead.. i suposed you wanted to see the yellow jersey wait for the team lantern? oh well.. he sort of did..

 

[goober]

Johan is not the boss of the riders, Johan is Lance's spineless little ***** that has 3 other priorities in mind ahead of Astana's interest as a sponsor. Contador will win the Tour for Astana. Contador has won stages for Astana. He went to win another stage but it didn't pan out. If JB had clear goals on his mind, he would have told Contador to attack if he could and leave everybody behind and win the stage. He would support his strongest rider. He would stop holding him back at every corner. It was a 2 km effort that is hardly going to sap a 26 year old's recovery for tomorrow.

OK, you are irrational and delusional. Not worth my time to discuss.

 

[fulcrum]

OK, you are irrational and delusional. Not worth my time to discuss.

Did I hurt your little feelings? Don't come to me with the Johan is the boss story line. Johan is a snake and everybody knows it.

 

[ridelikethewind]

Awesome, just wonderful team work by Contador. Let's knock the teammates off the podium, so they can concentrate on just helping him.

It's not Contador's job to help his team mates onto the podium. He is the No.1 and they should be helping him retain the yellow jersey, that's all that matters. When, Contador punctured/had mechanical today only Kloden dropped back.

Did Postal, Discovery etc wory about getting Heras, Landis, Rubiera... onto the podium?

 

[Ninety5rpm]

It's not Contador's job to help his team mates onto the podium. He is the No.1 and they should be helping him retain the yellow jersey, that's all that matters. When, Contador punctured/had mechanical today only Kloden dropped back.

Did Postal, Discovery etc wory about getting Heras, Landis, Rubiera... onto the podium?

That's not the same thing.
Postal/Discovery was organized specifically around Armstrong.
Astana was organized around Vino, originally.

This year's Astana Tour Team was more like a T-Mobile team from the past, or even CSC in the past, or Saxxo from this year. Even Lotto is going with dual leadership, Garmin too.

Astana had 4 cards to play on Day 1. Postal/Discovery never had even two cards to play (where a card is someone with a reasonable chance to be on the podium because he's been there before). If Zubeldia was in better form, it could have been 5.

And you have to earn leadership. Yes, AC has one three Grand Tours, including the TDF title handed to him after the real winner was dqed. But he has not earned leadership. Ullrich had won the Tour in the past too, but he did not always have a team dedicated to him.

You guys act like this one-leader-that-everyone-supports rule is written in stone and anyone not playing by that rule is a bad guy. It's not that simple.

If AC is good enough, then he should be able to find a team and sponsor that is willing to dedicate the entire organization to him. But he had not done that yet, and certainly not with Astana.

And you can't blame Lance for being able to organize such a team/sponsor for himself for next year, though I'm sure you will, and you will call him a hypocrite for doing it.