Official Thread: Stage 17 Bourg-Saint-Maurice to Le Grand-Bornand

[fulcrum]

I've given Contadope the benefit of the doubt until today. He is truly a pompous little ***. I hope he tests positive for dope as he just proved he is the biggest dope in the tour.

No way, he is not the biggest by any means. So far he is only going to win 2 Tours while dopping. The biggest dope in the tour goes to Lance, he's won 7 tours while dopping.

 

[ad9898]

No way, he is not the biggest by any means. So far he is only going to win 2 Tours while dopping. The biggest dope in the tour goes to Lance, he's won 7 tours while dopping.

Utter bollox.... and WTF? is 'dopping'

 

[jaylew]

Interesting to see some of the guys that fell apart today and finished in the very last group 36 minutes back.

Kirchen -What the heck happened to him?? He was just saying yesterday how good he was feeling and that he was on the way up and then he loses 36 minutes!

Anton - He had finally started climbing really well.

Tony Martin - Either he really hit the wall or maybe trying to win the TT?

Moncoutié - He's been a big disappointment in general.

 

[UWSWalter]

I give Lance a tremendous amount of credit for maintaining discipline and remaining on Wiggins wheel as long as was required. In doing so he cost himself at least one minute but 'did the right thing' for the team. He clearly had more to offer today, but rode in support of Contador.

Contador better start recognizing such efforts instead of complaining about a lack of support. Lance single handedly removed one his (Contador's) rivals today. A little appreciation would be nice.

 

[Azdak6]

I give Lance a tremendous amount of credit for maintaining discipline and remaining on Wiggins wheel as long as was required. In doing so he cost himself at least one minute but 'did the right thing' for the team. He clearly had more to offer today, but rode in support of Contador.

Contador better start recognizing such efforts instead of complaining about a lack of support. Lance single handedly removed one his (Contador's) rivals today. A little appreciation would be nice.

I agree in spirit, but to counter the hagiography of Versus et al, let me play devil's advocate by saying:

Lance was just doing the job he was supposed to do. I don't think he deserves any more "credit" than Kloden, Frank Schleck, or Christian Vandevelde.

 

[ad9898]

I give Lance a tremendous amount of credit for maintaining discipline and remaining on Wiggins wheel as long as was required. In doing so he cost himself at least one minute but 'did the right thing' for the team. He clearly had more to offer today, but rode in support of Contador.

Contador better start recognizing such efforts instead of complaining about a lack of support. Lance single handedly removed one his (Contador's) rivals today. A little appreciation would be nice.

A great post.

 

[fulcrum]

Lance single handedly removed one his (Contador's) rivals today.

If you are referring to Wiggings, it was the Schleck brothers and not Lance who "single handedly removed" him. Let's not give Lance credit for an effort put in by others.

And yes, Lance did stay at Wigging's wheel, like any other self professed teammate would do. But he ended up there in the first place because he was caught with his pants down during Frank's attack, zero momentum and looking up the road instead of checking what was cooking behind him.

That mistake might have cost Lance 2 minutes in the GC and maybe even a podium position. We'll see.

 

[slcbiker]

I give Lance a tremendous amount of credit for maintaining discipline and remaining on Wiggins wheel as long as was required. In doing so he cost himself at least one minute but 'did the right thing' for the team. He clearly had more to offer today, but rode in support of Contador.

Contador better start recognizing such efforts instead of complaining about a lack of support. Lance single handedly removed one his (Contador's) rivals today. A little appreciation would be nice.

That was classic work. When the Schlecks, Contador and Kloden jumped away, Lance slowed down so much that Wiggins almost plowed into him.

 

[Amsterhammer]

If you are referring to Wiggings, it was the Schleck brothers and not Lance who "single handedly removed" him. Let's not give Lance credit for an effort put in by others.

And yes, Lance did stay at Wigging's wheel, like any other self professed teammate would do. But he ended up there in the first place because he was caught with his pants down during Frank's attack, zero momentum and looking up the road instead of checking what was cooking behind him.

That mistake might have cost Lance 2 minutes in the GC and maybe even a podium position. We'll see.

If we're going to be pedantic about it...Lance and Frank 'conspired' to stuff Wiggins, they were talking together just before Frank's attack, an attack that I'm sure wasn't meant to catch Lance napping.

 

[frizzlefry]

I give Lance a tremendous amount of credit for maintaining discipline and remaining on Wiggins wheel as long as was required. In doing so he cost himself at least one minute but 'did the right thing' for the team. He clearly had more to offer today, but rode in support of Contador.

Contador better start recognizing such efforts instead of complaining about a lack of support. Lance single handedly removed one his (Contador's) rivals today. A little appreciation would be nice.

Yet someone said on here, at the moment LA attacked Wiggins, that "his attack was pointless". A great example of letting their hatred and resentment of LA cloud their vision. I was never fond of Vino, but I always gave him credit for his ability to attack and fvck up everyone's day.

 

[hfer07]

I give Lance a tremendous amount of credit for maintaining discipline and remaining on Wiggins wheel as long as was required. In doing so he cost himself at least one minute but 'did the right thing' for the team. He clearly had more to offer today, but rode in support of Contador.

Contador better start recognizing such efforts instead of complaining about a lack of support. Lance single handedly removed one his (Contador's) rivals today. A little appreciation would be nice.

OMG-Which Stage are you referring to? the Only one helping AC & who rode alongside was Kloden and even he got dropped....
In today's stage, the only rivals that AC was concerned about were the ones who he crossed the finish line with- so the "recognition" is granted only to his own effort to contain the "Schleck Brothers"...
But I guess yours was an average LA fan boy opinion

 

[Publicus]

I give Lance a tremendous amount of credit for maintaining discipline and remaining on Wiggins wheel as long as was required. In doing so he cost himself at least one minute but 'did the right thing' for the team. He clearly had more to offer today, but rode in support of Contador.

Contador better start recognizing such efforts instead of complaining about a lack of support. Lance single handedly removed one his (Contador's) rivals today. A little appreciation would be nice.[/QUOTE]

What the heck are you talking about? Contador and the Schleck Brothers did that, not Lance. Wiggins wasn't coming back to them and Lance didn't do anything to put him in trouble--just rode with him until it became clear he didn't have it.

Armstrong covered a couple of attacks as he should have as a domestique-which is a thankless job. Just ask all of the folks who buried themselves for Lance's glory.

 

[croix_de_fer]

What the heck are you talking about? Contador and the Schleck Brothers did that, not Lance. Wiggins wasn't coming back to them and Lance didn't do anything to put him in trouble--just rode with him until it became clear he didn't have it.

Armstrong covered a couple of attacks as he should have as a domestique-which is a thankless job. Just ask all of the folks who buried themselves for Lance's glory.

Yes, most of the other riders who are working for their leaders, VdV for example, are much more humble than LA. LA is playing head games with Contador and getting ready for 2010.

 

[UWSWalter]

You guys are correct. I overstated Lance's role in Wiggo's demise. Still an act of discipline. Tough pill to swallow in light of his capabilities.

And to those that point out that Lance use many a domestique on his way to seven tours...I always admired the way he was constantly praising team mates.

 

[fulcrum]

If we're going to be pedantic about it...Lance and Frank 'conspired' to stuff Wiggins, they were talking together just before Frank's attack, an attack that I'm sure wasn't meant to catch Lance napping.

We're not getting pedantic and no, it was not Lance and Frank that "conspired". It was the Schleck brothers that dropped Wiggings, Lance had nothing to do with it. Put the credit where the credit is due.

 

[CanCycleBoy]

I agree in spirit, but to counter the hagiography of Versus et al, let me play devil's advocate by saying:

Lance was just doing the job he was supposed to do. I don't think he deserves any more "credit" than Kloden, Frank Schleck, or Christian Vandevelde.

Well....let me play the devils advocate. How many TDF have Kloden, Schleck and VdV won between them? He deserves WAY more credit.

 

[caddisfly]

so instead of thinking you know what went on, how about a version from the horses mouth:

http://www.astana-cyclingteam.com/race_recaps/tdfst1709.html

I think LA rode well today, but I will defer to his words and JB words for the true assessment.

 

[NormanD]

Go Contador!

Contador didn't do any thing wrong today. Whether he dropped Kloden on purpose or not does not matter. He is there to win. Why is everyone giving Alberto grief? He is showing great class and doing his talking with his legs. His team should respect his actions. I have lost my respect for Johan since he has proven only to be a yes man for Lance. Can Contador truely trust anyone on his own team?

 

[Amsterhammer]

We're not getting pedantic and no, it was not Lance and Frank that "conspired". It was the Schleck brothers that dropped Wiggings, Lance had nothing to do with it. Put the credit where the credit is due.

Indeed, credit where it's due. I think you're letting your personal view of LA get in the way of your objectivity.

AC was already up the road with Schleklet, Frank and Lance were in the group with Wiggins. Frank and Lance conferred - shortly thereafter Lance forced Wiggins into the lead with a virtual sur place, then Frank took off, leaving both LA and Wiggins behind. After that LA stayed leeching on Wiggo's wheel. So to say that LA had nothing to do with it is simply not correct.

 

[frizzlefry]

Contador didn't do any thing wrong today. Whether he dropped Kloden on purpose or not does not matter. He is there to win. Why is everyone giving Alberto grief? He is showing great class and doing his talking with his legs. His team should respect his actions. I have lost my respect for Johan since he has proven only to be a yes man for Lance. Can Contador truely trust anyone on his own team?

Contador clearly isolated himself. Not a very smart move. He is very lucky the Schlecks didnt have anything in the tank to throw at him or he could have found himself losing a minute or two to them and quite possibly be in second place.
Contador is very lucky he has a good team around him and a smart DS or the Schlecks would be tag teaming him all the way to Paris.

 

[goober]

Contador didn't do any thing wrong today. Whether he dropped Kloden on purpose or not does not matter. He is there to win. Why is everyone giving Alberto grief? He is showing great class and doing his talking with his legs. His team should respect his actions. I have lost my respect for Johan since he has proven only to be a yes man for Lance. Can Contador truely trust anyone on his own team?

Cycling is a business, Johan is the boss, Contador did not listen to him and possibly, since we will never know what would have happened, removed Astana riders from the GC podium; thus, hurting the business. You guys just don't get it - it is not just a sport. The question is not can Contador truly trust, it is can the man in charge trust him. Go do that to your boss and see if he is not happy...

 

[Bala Verde]

AC was already up the road with Schleklet, Frank and Lance were in the group with Wiggins. Frank and Lance conferred - shortly thereafter Lance forced Wiggins into the lead with a virtual sur place, then Frank took off, leaving both LA and Wiggins behind. After that LA stayed leeching on Wiggo's wheel. So to say that LA had nothing to do with it is simply not correct.

But why would he not have followed F. Schleck then? If he could have shed Wiggins, with Schleck, he would surely have done that. He did it before in yesterday's stage, where he succesfully jumped to the main group.

And why would Lance allow Schleck to bridge the gap to assist Andy in his attempt to peel off Contador's yellow? And why would Schleck announce an attack, to one of his main rivals for a top position? On top of that, you could see that whenever Andy made a move Contador reacted, and whenever Frank made a move, Armstrong reacted. So why would he react every time when Frank attacks, but not then when it's most important to follow?

I did see that Schleck said something, but I don't know if it makes sens to infer that they 'conspired' to ditch Wiggins. I am a bad lip reader

As per Frank's words, he stated that 'he felt he was better than Lance and Wiggins, so he moved up the road instead of staying in that group'

 

[fulcrum]

Indeed, credit where it's due. I think you're letting your personal view of LA get in the way of your objectivity.

AC was already up the road with Schleklet, Frank and Lance were in the group with Wiggins. Frank and Lance conferred - shortly thereafter Lance forced Wiggins into the lead with a virtual sur place, then Frank took off, leaving both LA and Wiggins behind. After that LA stayed leeching on Wiggo's wheel. So to say that LA had nothing to do with it is simply not correct.

Again, Lance did nothing to bring Wiggins to his knees. He didn't set the pace, he didn't attack. The only thing he did was remain behind Wiggins when others attack. In fact, Sastre had more to do with Wiggings cracking than Lance. At least Sastre attacked early on and set a fast pace right away. As Van De Velde mentioned on Versus, that made the climb tough.

The toughness and pace of the climb was Wiggins doom. Not Lance playing domestique.

 

[Amsterhammer]

But why would he not have followed F. Schleck then?

Simple - because he wasn't able to. I'm not suggesting that LA hung with Wiggo as part of the greater plan. I'm sure he would have gone with Frank if he had been able to, but he wasn't - if for no other reason than because he was virtually standing still when Frank went.

I believe that LA has admitted that he is no longer able to respond to sudden changes of pace the way he used to. Frank's burst was too good for him at that moment.

 

[fulcrum]

Cycling is a business, Johan is the boss, Contador did not listen to him and possibly, since we will never know what would have happened, removed Astana riders from the GC podium; thus, hurting the business. You guys just don't get it - it is not just a sport. The question is not can Contador truly trust, it is can the man in charge trust him. Go do that to your boss and see if he is not happy...

Cycling is a sport. Astana has one goal: win the tour. Contador is going to win the tour. Winning attracks sponsors. And that is good for a team.

And if you wanna start going up the line, Johan is an employee, not the boss. The bosses are in Kazhakistan and they don't seem to think very highly of Johan. In fact they already told him that if he didn't want Vino in the team, he could go take a hike.