Official Thread: Stage 17 Bourg-Saint-Maurice to Le Grand-Bornand

[frizzlefry]

Contador has a 2 plus minute lead on the two guys he was riding with. He made a move and dropped his teammate that was riding in the red for the last couple of K. If you pay attention to Klodens cadance you will notice it gets a bit slower while he was sitting on in the back. Kloden and Contador didn't have to pull. Contador is the race leader and Kloden would not pull the schleck boys up the hill. If you want to win the race the schleck boys needed to get away.

Exactly, if the Schlecks wanted to put time on the other GC riders, they should have been the ones to attack. Whats amazing is the mental difference between LA and AC. They are worlds apart. AC just doesnt seem to understand race tactics. I dont remember AC being this tacticly stupid in 07 and 08.

 

[unsheath]

What's all this Hoopla all about? Contador was doing was the strongest rider in the tour does. The Schlecks had been pulling for 2 cols and where prime targets for an attack. He saw the opportunity to gain a minute or two on ALL rivals. If the opportunity presents itself, you take it. As someone has already pointed out, if he gaps the Schlecks, he's a genius otherwise he's a brat. As for Kloden, he's got absolutely no obligation to him whatever. In fact Kloden did SFA for the whole stage. For people to think Contador should have gifted the stage to him if they had crested together is absurd. He didn't pull a single metre and didn't mark any attacks. Being a shadow doesn't obligate you for a stage win.

Dadoorsron, you've already made your bias abundantly clear and your reading of racing leaves a lot to be desired. Perhaps watching without blinkers would help.

 

[richwagmn]

+1, JB gave an interview to Spanish press:

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/depo...nce/Alberto/elpepidep/20090722elpepidep_3/Tes

he basically said that Lance is his friend, and he just doesn't have chemistry with Alberto. What an unprofessional douchebag

He also said that he has always have problems with Alberto and don't expect to have his lover and AC on the same team..duh..

Seems so strange for JB to give up AC. Is he thinking of being in the sport for only a couple more years? Does he have another prospect? Does he really think LA can win the tour again?

Pretty classless to announce this stuff before the tour is over too.

 

[richwagmn]

All this back and forth about LA and AC and JB. It should be about AC and Kloden. It's ironic that it was this finish in which LA went out with Floyd Landis and then tried to give Landis the win in return for all his hard work. Kloden has been there for AC the whole tour and he gets repaid by being left behind by his own teammate's acceleration. It's not dissimilar to Hincapie not getting Yellow the other day. There is some honor and history in the sport that should be respected - you notice it was Frank Schleck that won the stage not Andy - because Andy knows how to play the game - just like LA for Floyd. I guess CA feels a little like Sastre - some form of disrespect.

I think you're overstating Kloden's "dedication" to AC. Kloden was a semi-protected rider. I don't recall seeing Kloden do a bunch of work for the team anywhere actually. He helped LA out a few times, but mostly he's been riding for himself.

I though domestiques were supposed to ride for their team leader? Did I miss Kloden shredding himself for AC at some point?

 

[BroDeal]

Exactly, if the Schlecks wanted to put time on the other GC riders, they should have been the ones to attack. Whats amazing is the mental difference between LA and AC. They are worlds apart. AC just doesnt seem to understand race tactics. I dont remember AC being this tacticly stupid in 07 and 08.

Seems to me everything worked out pretty well for Contador. He gained time on everyone but the Schlecks, including Wiggins, Kloden, and Armstrong, the riders who might be able to match him in the time trial.

 

[fulcrum]

I think you're overstating Kloden's "dedication" to AC. Kloden was a semi-protected rider. I don't recall seeing Kloden do a bunch of work for the team anywhere actually. He helped LA out a few times, but mostly he's been riding for himself.

I though domestiques were supposed to ride for their team leader? Did I miss Kloden shredding himself for AC at some point?

No, you didn't miss anything. AK and LA haven't shed a single drop of sweat helping AC, period. They've been riding for themselves.

Lance of all people should know quite well how a domestique rides: he got a first seat view in his US Postal years, looking at Heras, Rubiera, Ekimov and all those guys that would literally leave their soul on the road for him. Lance and Kloden haven't even gotten to 5% of that kind of effort. Lance in particular seems unwilling to help and too busy on his twitter... And don't tell me he sat on Wiggins wheel, that requires no extra effort. Chasing after Sastre, the Schlecks or setting the pace during the climb is putting in an effort.

Lance says he is happy to help Contador. I think what he means is that he will put down his weapons and agree not to attack. Very magnanimus of him, given that he is clearly outgunned.

 

[badboyberty]

AC just doesnt seem to understand race tactics. I dont remember AC being this tacticly stupid in 07 and 08.

I've not been a big Contador follower but have tended to notice that he does tend to attack as his number one defence. And so far it seems to work well.

Without a working crystal ball, Contador can't have known that both Schlecks would keep his wheel. He's said he only expected Andy Schleck to have a chance to hold it, and judging by previous stages that was a reasonable expectation. Had the attack worked and Contador had distanced both Schlecks the psychological damage alone to Saxo Bank would have effectively neutralised Ventoux.

Good check-list to see if a move is stupid or not.

1. Move results in rider losing race. STUPID
2. Move results in team leader gaining time on the majority of competitor's. SUCCESSFUL
3. Moves that gains time on all competitor's BRILLIANT
4. Move totally destroys competition but puts two of your team-mates on the podium. TIME TO TAKE A REALLY CLOSE LOOK AT THE BIOLOGICAL PASSPORTS

 

[MKirilenko]

Exactly fulcrum. Plus the fact Kloeden was wheelsucking Contador, when he went after Schlecks, which gives pretty absurd conclusion that AC helped Kloeden more, than Kloeden helped Contador, not mentioning Lance. Also, At the beginning of the stage there were more Caisse riders around Conta than Astana's, which might be a sneak preview of a transfer we may see in the near future.

 

[fulcrum]

Exactly fulcrum. Plus the fact Kloeden was wheelsucking Contador, when he went after Schlecks, which gives pretty absurd conclusion that AC helped Kloeden more, than Kloeden helped Contador, not mentioning Lance. Also, At the beginning of the stage there were more Caisse riders around Conta than Astana's, which might be a sneak preview of a transfer we may see in the near future.

I don't understand what kind of obligation AC has towards AK. AK is clearly aligned with LA's camp, which has been trying to screw and isolate AC all tour long. AK hasn't helped AC one bit. And given all this, AC needs to keep AK's interest in mind when deciding what to do on the road as a race leader? No way!

Those two minutes AC put on AK will allow Alberto to sleep much better tonight.

AC has also shown that he is smarter than some people give him credit for. He has said all the right things to the press: Lance is a great champion, I'm sorry about what happened to Kloden etc etc. In the meantime, he has attacked Lance and today his closest threat Kloden mercilessly. That kind of racing will win him the Tour. Trusting JB, AK and LA and letting them stay within two minutes of him on the GC would have spelled trouble.

No prisoners.

 

[poupou]

Seems to me everything worked out pretty well for Contador. He gained time on everyone but the Schlecks, including Wiggins, Kloden, and Armstrong, the riders who might be able to match him in the time trial.

+1

To have gained time on Armstrong can not be seen as good by the Lance's fans who are dreaming of an hypothetic win by obscur means! Those "fans" are the real haters able to dream of the worst for people who do'nt fit their agenda.

 

[Anonymous]

I've not been a big Contador follower but have tended to notice that he does tend to attack as his number one defence. And so far it seems to work well.

Without a working crystal ball, Contador can't have known that both Schlecks would keep his wheel. He's said he only expected Andy Schleck to have a chance to hold it, and judging by previous stages that was a reasonable expectation. Had the attack worked and Contador had distanced both Schlecks the psychological damage alone to Saxo Bank would have effectively neutralised Ventoux.

Good check-list to see if a move is stupid or not.

1. Move results in rider losing race. STUPID
2. Move results in team leader gaining time on the majority of competitor's. SUCCESSFUL
3. Moves that gains time on all competitor's BRILLIANT
4. Move totally destroys competition but puts two of your team-mates on the podium. TIME TO TAKE A REALLY CLOSE LOOK AT THE BIOLOGICAL PASSPORTS

+1............................

 

[ridelikethewind]

You're still using the peculiar standard set by the Postal/Disco team around Lance Armstrong as some kind of measure of how teams are supposed to behave. In reality, that was a very unique organization.

You noted that only Klodi stayed back for AC when he had a mechanical today. Yeah, USP/Disco would have left 2-4 guys back there for LA, but what other team would do that? Maybe Astana for Vino in the early Astana days? But there again, that was a rare organization. It's a mistake to hold the 2009 Astana organization up to that standard. That's just not what it is, for better or for worse. It's a more typical organization. AC can expect about as much support from his team as any other leader in this year's Tour can expect from his team, and not as much as LA got, or Vino got (or even what Flandis got from Phonak).

Total team dedication to one leader on GC is what you seem to be expecting out of Astana. Why?

Your posts are full of contradictions.

The reason that I would expect total dedication to one team leader is because Lance Armstrong is on the team and JB is the DS/Head Honcho. How is this any different to a Postal/Disco set up.

Moto 'All for one and one for one' - the two mouseketeers.

Unless the one is someone else.

 

[manolo]

Lance says he is happy to help Contador. I think what he means is that he will put down his weapons and agree not to attack. Very magnanimus of him [but] he is clearly outgunned.

Ah, I can't wait till next year to see what Armstrong looks like trying to put Contador in difficulty. My guess is he won't even try. I bet he'll just ride Contador's wheel as long as possible, try to reagain time in the time time trials and send Levi and Andreas up the road occasionally to see if he can get Alberto to spend some energy chasing his boys down. I'd be surprised if Armstrong managed to place as high as third again. My jaw will drop if he does! : )

 

[hfer07]

Ah, I can't wait till next year to see what Armstrong looks like trying to put Contador in difficulty. My guess is he won't even try. I bet he'll just ride Contador's wheel as long as possible, try to reagain time in the time time trials and send Levi and Andreas up the road occasionally to see if he can get Alberto to spend some energy chasing his boys down. I'd be surprised if Armstrong managed to place as high as third again. My jaw will drop if he does! : )