Official thread- TDF Stage 7 Barcelone - Andorre Arcalis 224km

[Cobblestones]

oh god Newtons second law. "the acceleration of an object is proportional to the force applied, and inversely proportional to the mass of the object" I guess that's to advanced for a cycling forum.

Get a clue. Even Galilei knew better than you nitwit.

A biography by Galileo's pupil Vincenzo Viviani stated that Galileo had dropped balls of the same material, but different masses, from the Leaning Tower of Pisa to demonstrate that their time of descent was independent of their mass.[78] This was contrary to what Aristotle had taught: that heavy objects fall faster than lighter ones, in direct proportion to weight.[79]

Your physics understanding hasn't yet arrived in the 16th century. Your cycling knowledge is even further behind.

 

[dadoorsron]

Get a clue. Even Galileo knew better than you nitwit.

LOL ok you are one of those internet tough guys right? that's fine. enjoy the tour and have a good evening.

 

[Ferminal]

Terribly boring stage, total non-event.

Not quite as bad as the last 10 pages of this thread though, take it to the lance thread...

 

[Wheels Go Round and Round]

LOL ok you are one of those internet tough guys right? that's fine. enjoy the tour and have a good evening.

be careful... there are few "tough" guys in here....

 

[Futuroscope]

As I said in an earlier post, I understand that casual fans and the US media imagine that Lance 2009 is the same as Lance 2001. I live in Chicago and you heard the same stuff when Jordan made his (2nd) comeback. And you hear the same nonsense about Favre.

What I don't understand is how some of the other pro riders and Bruyneel could think this way. Maybe deep down they don't, and they are just being publicly polite. I hope someday we get the real story--unfortunately, from the looks of things right now, no objective report is forthcoming.

I don't have a problem with Armstrong taking his shot, within an overall team plan. As an exercise physiologist, I am curious to see how he performs at this level. I just think that it is suicidal to seriously plan for him as an official team leader--as you say, esp when you have a Contador on your team. WTF?

i agree, i dont understand it. (well on some level i do).

have contador as no 1 and lance maybe as a back up. and put an end to this drama ****. JB should do his job and stop kissing lances ***.

 

[BroDeal]

LOL ok you are one of those internet tough guys right? that's fine. enjoy the tour and have a good evening.

Judging by what you have written in the Armstrong thread (and had your behind roundly handed to you for), being an internet tough guy is far better than being an internet clueless guy.

 

[auscyclefan94]

I thinks its because he is 37 and hasn't been in a race like the tour in 4 years. His acceleration is a bit lower now but he still closed the gap.

What's going to happen then to LA when the 'serious' acclerations go?

 

[Futuroscope]

I pretty much am in agreement with everything you say. I'm not as sure as you that he was "gassed" at the end of the opening TT. My memory is that his time splits were relatively consistent with his overall placing (I think he improved one place over his intermediate place). They showed a lot of the riders at the 1K to go mark, and it didn't seem like his last 1K time was noticeably slower (again, compared to his placing--obviously he was slower than Cancellara). I am curious if you saw something different or have different info.

I also think he looked a little better today than you think he did (although I agree it was doubtful he could have kept up w/Contador).

I also don't have a real problem with what Contador did today. Given the goofy situation w/Astana, I don't see how you can fault him for looking out for himself. And even if one says it was a "selfish" move, he picked a good spot-- it's not like he hurt the team by his attack. Had someone like Zebeldia done it, that might be different, but Contador has arguably the most legitimate claim to team leadership, regardless of who is ahead in the standings.

and even if you see armstrong and contador as co-captains, why shouldnt contador attack? is he supposed to do nothing just to please lance and co? and by doing that miss the opportunity to gain seconds on the other GC-riders?

 

[Publicus]

your second point I think schleck gave up when astana and cadel quickly closed the gap on him. Armstrong looked fine. Why does he need to look Dominant on a semi easy mountian top finish 2 weeks before the end of the race. Mount Ventoux will have GC contenders spread out all over it. The time lost on Ventoux can be in the 5-10 minute range if you crack. Arcalis the grade in the last 5k was so low i think anyone riding near the red on the bottom felt better at the top and was able to make a move like the riders did. Armstrong didn't change his cadence when alberto went by letting him go. If you can make a good argument for chasing down a teammate then you can use the lance didn't go after contador crap.

Now stage three when you are warned that there is a right turn and the wind will change don't you think you better get to the front because the peleton could get ripped apart. That is just cycling. Running off the front in stage 7 with 14 stages to go to pick up time really just on your teammate when most other riders are atleast a minute plus down on you already is just tactically childish. The race wasn't won today and the riders 3 plus minutes down are pretty much S.O.L already. It's the riders that are behind that need to attack why attack so early in a race when there is so much race left. It didn't prove anything to any of the riders it just proved that Contador is being the child in this matter. not listening to a sports director that has accomplished as much as Johan is just ***. I was a contador fan and I still think he is a great rider and will be very good for the next few years. However, if he doesn't listen to a Sports director why would seasoned riders like his astana teammates want to help him if he acts like this.

I'm just telling you what I saw on the screen. Schleck couldn't close the gap and I assume figured there was no sense blowing himself trying to do so. LA looked fine, he just didn't look dominate or comfortable. The fact remains that putting 21 additional seconds on Evans (now 2:55 back from Contador), Sastre (now 2:46), Shleck (now 1:43) and Menchov (+4 min) isn't nothing. Just like LA putting 41 seconds on all of them on Stage 3 wasn't nothing.

And according to Wiggins, it had quite the effect on the other riders. At least in his opinion. Obviously this isn't an argument that can be won. You seem to believe that Contador was a fool and acting destructively by putting time into his rivals. Likewise you think it was smart racing from LA to put time into his rivals on Stage 3. Why these two situations are different to you is beyond me, but it seems colored by the fact that AC isn't showing sufficient deference to LA. But the facts aren't arguable: if you have an opportunity to put time into your rivals, you do. There are no tomorrows in the TDF. LA of 2005 and before knew that.

As for Ventoux, you seem to think that Contador will falter there, but I'm not sure what evidence you have to support that. He JUST rode in June marking each and every attack Cadel Evans tried to deliver. And he wasn't trying to win. LA hasn't ridden it what 5 years? And he's soon to be 38 and is 20 pounds heavier than Contador? Or is it your belief that LA's desire to win is greater than AC's? Or is that you simply want to believe that? Nothing suggests that AC will have troubles in the mountains but if you have evidence to support that implied assumption deliver it.

 

[dadoorsron]

be careful... there are few "tough" guys in here....

lol i have noticed!

 

[Futuroscope]

I'm just telling you what I saw on the screen. Schleck couldn't close the gap and I assume figured there was no sense blowing himself trying to do so. LA looked fine, he just didn't look dominate or comfortable. The fact remains that putting 21 additional seconds on Evans (now 2:55 back from Contador), Sastre (now 2:46), Shleck (now 1:43) and Menchov (+4 min) isn't nothing. Just like LA putting 41 seconds on all of them on Stage 3 wasn't nothing.

And according to Wiggins, it had quite the effect on the other riders. At least in his opinion. Obviously this isn't an argument that can be won. You seem to believe that Contador was a fool and acting destructively by putting time into his rivals. Likewise you think it was smart racing from LA to put time into his rivals on Stage 3. Why these two situations are different to you is beyond me, but it seems colored by the fact that AC isn't showing sufficient deference to LA. But the facts aren't arguable: if you have an opportunity to put time into your rivals, you do. There are no tomorrows in the TDF. LA of 2005 and before knew that.

As for Ventoux, you seem to think that Contador will falter there, but I'm not sure what evidence you have to support that. He JUST rode in June marking each and every attack Cadel Evans tried to deliver. And he wasn't trying to win. LA hasn't ridden it what 5 years? And he's soon to be 38 and is 20 pounds heavier than Contador? Or is it your belief that LA's desire to win is greater than AC's? Or is that you simply want to believe that? Nothing suggests that AC will have troubles in the mountains but if you have evidence to support that implied assumption deliver it.

yup. how can 21 seconds be nothing compared to zero seconds (contador staying with armstrong and the rest of the GC-riders).

 

[Cobblestones]

LOL ok you are one of those internet tough guys right? that's fine. enjoy the tour and have a good evening.

Tough? Everybody can be tough on the internet. But you can't fix stupid

 

[Azdak6]

Sports journalism used to be pretty crappy, because it has always depended on access which of course would usually lead to an unhealthy closeness between athletes and reporters.

Now, to the analysis of the article. It is clearly a mixture of reporting and opinion piece. A style for which 'Der Spiegel' has been (in)famous as long as I can remember. However, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to distinguish one from the other. What you dislike is mostly the opinion parts and interpretations of the writer. So you disagree. How again does it make the article bad?

The doping stuff was correct and right to the point. Did you spot a mistake?

I understand the difference between fact and opinion. I am not criticizing the author for expressing opinions or because I don't like the fact that he is criticizing Armstrong.

For a publication like Der Spiegel, I expect opinion to be based on expertise, inside knowledge, and intelligent analysis. I saw none of that in the article. What I read I can read dozens of times a day in this forum (and that's just from TFF alone) ;-) I am criticizing the shallowness of the opinions and the sloppiness of the reporting. The author does not even bother to try and support his opinions--the only quotes are ripoffs from wire reports, he cites no original investigative work or additional interviews. I could have written the article from my office (and in German as well).

IMO, the doping stuff was a rant. Once again, the author strings together a selection of random facts and observations for no apparent reason--other than the fact that maybe the German audience wants that to be part of every cycling article. He seems to be trying to combine two themes--the struggle within Astana for leadership and his attempt to fan the suspicions of doping against Astana riders--without supporting either of them very well. Whether or not the "facts" are "correct" or not is not relevant to the quality of the writing.

This statement: "....die Mannschaft dagegen ist froh, dass das Duell von der Doping-Dauerdebatte ablenkt." Maybe I am misreading the text, or maybe there is a raging debate in european circles about Astana that we in America are not aware of. But, since the Tour began, has there been a huge public "debate" about Astana and doping? An ongoing maelstrom that has been put aside by the Astana soap opera? This just sounds like something he made up.

 

[Azdak6]

The first sign he was in trouble was the change in his cadence at about 3K to go. Maybe it was 2K but it was definitely well before the tunnel which was just after the 1K to go banner.

As for today, I thought he was fine in a LL way of climbing. The old LA use to accelerate away from folks at the drop of a hat. LL NEVER could do that. He could ride consistent and at a high tempo, but he's never been able to drop any of the best climbers. LA looked more like LL than LA circa 2005 or before.

A good comparison.

 

[dadoorsron]

I'm just telling you what I saw on the screen. Schleck couldn't close the gap and I assume figured there was no sense blowing himself trying to do so. LA looked fine, he just didn't look dominate or comfortable. The fact remains that putting 21 additional seconds on Evans (now 2:55 back from Contador), Sastre (now 2:46), Shleck (now 1:43) and Menchov (+4 min) isn't nothing. Just like LA putting 41 seconds on all of them on Stage 3 wasn't nothing.

And according to Wiggins, it had quite the effect on the other riders. At least in his opinion. Obviously this isn't an argument that can be won. You seem to believe that Contador was a fool and acting destructively by putting time into his rivals. Likewise you think it was smart racing from LA to put time into his rivals on Stage 3. Why these two situations are different to you is beyond me, but it seems colored by the fact that AC isn't showing sufficient deference to LA. But the facts aren't arguable: if you have an opportunity to put time into your rivals, you do. There are no tomorrows in the TDF. LA of 2005 and before knew that.

As for Ventoux, you seem to think that Contador will falter there, but I'm not sure what evidence you have to support that. He JUST rode in June marking each and every attack Cadel Evans tried to deliver. And he wasn't trying to win. LA hasn't ridden it what 5 years? And he's soon to be 38 and is 20 pounds heavier than Contador? Or is it your belief that LA's desire to win is greater than AC's? Or is that you simply want to believe that? Nothing suggests that AC will have troubles in the mountains but if you have evidence to support that implied assumption deliver it.

I know it does sound like that i have a different opinion on stage 3 and stage 7 with putting time in rivals. I really think that stage three was following the flow of the race. meaning if you make a turn and the wind changes you better be in position because you can lose time on the lead group. Now if armstrong was in the second half and missed the split I would of said it was his mistake and he should of known better. Today was a different situation. the flow of the race was not calling for a solo attack. It was to counter the attack of other racers. Johan was telling them to slow down so they wouldn't take over the yellow jersey. Johan told the team to ride as a team and counter the attacks (of main rivals) that go up the road. I think I have a problem more with Contador not obeying team orders. Not following the team goals. I think That's what is bothering me more. The only people he really made a difference in is his own teammates. I don't see how that could benefit him when in all reality his own team is his real competition. I know there are other riders that have podium ability but, I really don't see them doing it with the strength of astana.

Mount Ventoux is the mountian that will crown the champion. anyone 3 minutes plus at this moment should just ride for positions 4th and lower. Unless a freak accident happens on Ventoux and takes out the entire astana team I don't see anyone gaining 3 minutes on any of the Astana contenders. With that said the only way someone will make huge gains in time on Ventoux is one of the contenders cracks and falls apart on the climb. Thats any of the contenders. Schleck, armstrong, evans, Contador, Kloden, Sastre, Leipheimer, and a couple others have a possible chance but not much. Will there be just two people riding together towards the top of Ventoux. Probably. One of those riders will win and one will be second. However, all this speculation is just hot air really because, alot can happen in 13 stages. The 3 minute plus at this moment are getting the nails out because there coffins are about to get nailed shut there really are only three more stages for the big hitters to do anything. stage 15, 18 and 20. I think 18 and 20 will do more damage then 15 but, Stage 18 will open up gaps that will be even harder to close in stage 20.

 

[Cobblestones]

I understand the difference between fact and opinion. I am not criticizing the author for expressing opinions or because I don't like the fact that he is criticizing Armstrong.

For a publication like Der Spiegel, I expect opinion to be based on expertise, inside knowledge, and intelligent analysis. I saw none of that in the article. What I read I can read dozens of times a day in this forum (and that's just from TFF alone) ;-) I am criticizing the shallowness of the opinions and the sloppiness of the reporting. The author does not even bother to try and support his opinions--the only quotes are ripoffs from wire reports, he cites no original investigative work or additional interviews. I could have written the article from my office (and in German as well).

IMO, the doping stuff was a rant. Once again, the author strings together a selection of random facts and observations for no apparent reason--other than the fact that maybe the German audience wants that to be part of every cycling article. He seems to be trying to combine two themes--the struggle within Astana for leadership and his attempt to fan the suspicions of doping against Astana riders--without supporting either of them very well. Whether or not the "facts" are "correct" or not is not relevant to the quality of the writing.

This statement: "....die Mannschaft dagegen ist froh, dass das Duell von der Doping-Dauerdebatte ablenkt." Maybe I am misreading the text, or maybe there is a raging debate in european circles about Astana that we in America are not aware of. But, since the Tour began, has there been a huge public "debate" about Astana and doping? An ongoing maelstrom that has been put aside by the Astana soap opera? This just sounds like something he made up.

How can you say he made it up. The Freiburg report just came out (Kloden). OP came back to the top when Valverde was banned by CONI (so he reminds us of 'A.C.' in Fuentes' journal). LA's evasion of a tester is pretty recent. It's context.

 

[dadoorsron]

Tough? Everybody can be tough on the internet. But you can't fix stupid

NO but get the duct tape out i'll try to help you as much as possible.

 

[53 x 11]

Tough? Everybody can be tough on the internet. But you can't fix stupid

Judging by the amount of baseball caps/oversized basketball tops in the audience they are all Lance fans!

 

[Cobblestones]

NO but get the duct tape out i'll try to help you as much as possible.

No. Only the first lesson is free. You'd have to pay for your continued education.

 

[rhubroma]

I know it does sound like that i have a different opinion on stage 3 and stage 7 with putting time in rivals. I really think that stage three was following the flow of the race. meaning if you make a turn and the wind changes you better be in position because you can lose time on the lead group. Now if armstrong was in the second half and missed the split I would of said it was his mistake and he should of known better. Today was a different situation. the flow of the race was not calling for a solo attack. It was to counter the attack of other racers. Johan was telling them to slow down so they wouldn't take over the yellow jersey. Johan told the team to ride as a team and counter the attacks (of main rivals) that go up the road. I think I have a problem more with Contador not obeying team orders. Not following the team goals..

Dude, what coverage are you watching? Ohh, how could I be so naive? The Ligget fanboys' channel, right? If not, excuse me, but I really think your analysis was very weak.

Now look, let me explain what really took place.

Astana road to put Armstrong in yellow, keeping the pace high enough to discourage all but Evans' desperate attack. To give the ol'fella one last sense of past glory. But the real stud on the team, the one they should be supporting 100%, but only for the LA disruption have to waste their own time, is AC. Even Johan knows this, but is pressed to do otherwise.

The Italian Nocentini thwarted Armstrong's plans, though, and finally gave Johan the sane opportunity to do what he always should have done, play the AC card on the climb.

Nocentini eliminated the possibility that an Armstrong, who can't make a difference anymore in the mountains, but only remain attached to the frontrunners, would go in yellow at the end of the stage. Thus Johan and AC were liberated, though they should never have been hindered as they have been.

AC attacked with consent and not, as you erroneously (and ignorantly) claim in rebellion, to Johan's direction of the team at the end of the stage.

And please, AC is hands down the best rider in the race. It should be Armstrong covering the moves for him and not vice versa.

 

[LinkAge]

Dude, what coverage are you watching? Ohh, how could I be so naive? The Ligget fanboys' channel, right? If not, excuse me, but I really think your analysis was very weak.

Now look, let me explain what really took place.

Astana road to put Armstrong in yellow, keeping the pace high enough to discourage all but Evans' desperate attack. To give the ol'fella one last sense of past glory. But the real stud on the team, the one they should be supporting 100%, but only for the LA disruption have to waste their own time, is AC. Even Johan knows this, but is pressed to do otherwise.

The Italian Nocentini thwarted Armstrong's plans, though, and finally gave Johan the sane opportunity to do what he always should have done, play the AC card on the climb.

Nocentini eliminated the possibility that an Armstrong, who can't make a difference anymore in the mountains, but only remain attached to the frontrunners, would go in yellow at the end of the stage. Thus Johan and AC were liberated, though they should never have been hindered as they have been.

AC attacked with consent and not, as you erroneously (and ignorantly) claim in rebellion, to Johan's direction of the team at the end of the stage.

And please, AC is hands down the best rider in the race. It should be Armstrong covering the moves for him and not vice versa.

I can see you spent a lot of time writing this ( crap ) but you forgot a few things!

- JB didn't want to take yellow today, so all that crap putting LA in top position is not true.

-his attack wasn't according to plan

-JB said the plan was to talk with each other and mark the other big GC, Conti didn't listen to both parts

-I agree Conti is probably the strongest guy, but he still is a little **** **** that went against his team!

-after stage 7 the AST guys know for sure Conti is in it for him self, and doesn't care about his teammates or his DS

If you like it or not, cycling is a team sport, at the moment (post stage 7) I can't see Conti's team.

 

[Wergeland]

Contador is not a fool, he knows the traditions of teams and the yellow jersey, if LA got that jersey today, LA would have then become the team leader and the only remaining chance he would have had to beat LA would be the TT. Contador is a 3 time GT champion for a reason, he knew that after LA's time gain on stage 3, he had to get back that time today, period, end of story. Now he has placed himself at the front of the team again and once he pulls on the yellow, that will be game over for LA. LA knows this, hence why he was ****ed off and used the media for his passive aggressive war with AC.

My thoughts exactly. Its the first to the yellow. Had Lance pulled it on after yesterdays stage he wouldn't have given it away. At least not to a proper GC contender. The Astana team is that strong, perhaps the best tour-team ever.
AC did what he had to do. If not, the best racer by a mile in this tour would have had to use more brakes than throttle for the rest of the tour, and that would have been sad. Johan and Lance are best friends and most likely they'll be working together next years as well. Keeping Lance happy is more important than Contador for Johan.

 

[whiteboytrash]

Thought this was a nice rap on the stage. Note the impact of the LA comeback. Hogging the press from the French winning and thus destroying the sport in France.
___
__

Bingen Fernandez Bustinza, a 14th-year Spanish pro who rides for the French Cofidis cycling team, is a regular offseason visitor to Lawrence. Last fall, for instance, he spent several weeks here visiting his girlfriend, Nikane Mallea.

He participated in some of the regular group rides of the Lawrence Bicycle Club and developed a bit of a following among local cyclists.

Fernandez has agreed to file regular blogs from this year’s Tour.

Stage seven: A 139.2-mile trek featuring five climbs on a route from Barcelona to an uphill finish at the Arcalis ski resort in the Pyrenees

Fernandez stage-seven finish: 169th.

Fernandez overall: 139th, 32:11 back.

Two hundred and twenty-three kilometers — today is the first mountain stage of the Tour de France and the first test for the leaders.

More than anything, the journalists have been waiting to see what will happen between the Armstrong/Contador wars.

That is about the only thing in the papers lately.

Who will be the leader of Astana?

Which of the two will win the Tour de France?

Everyone is looking for the polemics.

After a furious stage start a breakaway got away, and everyone in the team relaxed waiting for a team to take responsibility and do work on the front. We all knew that Astana would have to be that team.

As Team Astana did work on the front, the rest of us had our minds on the Cat 1 climb that waited for us at kilometer 117.

The race situation depended heavily on how Astana would climb that mountain — maybe midway into the stage the group would be split into several groups. Luckily for everyone, Astana did not attack the mountain full throttle, and we were given the chance to see the head of the race for a while longer.

I wanted to actually go up and thank them for not torturing us too much. I will have to give them my gratitude tomorrow.

The race continued on at a decent rhythm until the foot of the last mountain when there was a huge crash taking down the majority of the riders. Although I did not crash, I waited for my teammates that had been caught up in it.

On the descent, I realized that there was not much more to do for the day but save my legs, help my teammates and wait for another stage.

I just hope that the front page of tomorrow’s paper has a picture of Agritubel’s Brice Feillu instead of the Armstrong/Contador war.

I am afraid it will be the latter though.

Asi es la vida!

 

[Futuroscope]

I can see you spent a lot of time writing this ( crap ) but you forgot a few things!

- JB didn't want to take yellow today, so all that crap putting LA in top position is not true.

-his attack wasn't according to plan

-JB said the plan was to talk with each other and mark the other big GC, Conti didn't listen to both parts

-I agree Conti is probably the strongest guy, but he still is a little **** **** that went against his team!

-after stage 7 the AST guys know for sure Conti is in it for him self, and doesn't care about his teammates or his DS

If you like it or not, cycling is a team sport, at the moment (post stage 7) I can't see Conti's team.

'his attack wasn't according to plan' ? well then its a stupid plan, what team wouldnt let their strongest rider gain time on the rest of the GC riders if he has the legs to attack?

instead of blasting contador, people should be wondering wtf is JB doing. what lance is doing is pretty obvious.

 

[dadoorsron]

Dude, what coverage are you watching? Ohh, how could I be so naive? The Ligget fanboys' channel, right? If not, excuse me, but I really think your analysis was very weak.

Now look, let me explain what really took place.

Astana road to put Armstrong in yellow, keeping the pace high enough to discourage all but Evans' desperate attack. To give the ol'fella one last sense of past glory. But the real stud on the team, the one they should be supporting 100%, but only for the LA disruption have to waste their own time, is AC. Even Johan knows this, but is pressed to do otherwise.

The Italian Nocentini thwarted Armstrong's plans, though, and finally gave Johan the sane opportunity to do what he always should have done, play the AC card on the climb.

Nocentini eliminated the possibility that an Armstrong, who can't make a difference anymore in the mountains, but only remain attached to the frontrunners, would go in yellow at the end of the stage. Thus Johan and AC were liberated, though they should never have been hindered as they have been.

AC attacked with consent and not, as you erroneously (and ignorantly) claim in rebellion, to Johan's direction of the team at the end of the stage.

And please, AC is hands down the best rider in the race. It should be Armstrong covering the moves for him and not vice versa.

So I guess you don't read any of the comments made by Bruyneel or you don't understand him. There was NO green light to attack! That's ok though come up with your own ideas because it best supports your position. You have lowered the collective IQ of all the posters on this board thank you for that.