Teams & Riders Official Wout Van Aert thread

[jono]

I think it's a big 3, and each has its strengths and weaknesses compared to the other.


No direct WvA vs Pog/MvdP comparison, but Wout was super strong at Paris-Nice last year, this year's Tirreno was rather poor. Wout barely came out of Covid and looked stronger than MvdP at Roubaix.

If Pog was unable to drop MvdP last year, I don't think he could have dropped Wout. It's obvious enough to me that '22 Wout >> '23 Wout.

I'd add here that MVDP 2022 was weaker than MVDP 2023 (or another way of putting it - his preparation for his spring season was even less ideal last year) which makes these transitive property comparisons a bit more difficult. Van der Poel was certainly fully cooked by Roubaix in '22. Remains to be seen if he will have anything left this year.

 

[Extinction]

M

I'd add here that MVDP 2022 was weaker than MVDP 2023 (or another way of putting it - his preparation for his spring season was even less ideal last year) which makes these transitive property comparisons a bit more difficult. Van der Poel was certainly fully cooked by Roubaix in '22. Remains to be seen if he will have anything left this year.

MVDP was more or less equal to last year (the back thing has been his excuse), but the difference was that this Ronde was ridden at lightning speed, which allowed Pog's superior strength to have the final say.

 

[vwpe]

yet again another year with his big objective in peak condition MVDP outpower him just as easy as ever before like have happened their entire career, nothing new for anyone who have watched cycling this may or may not fit what certain people like but regardless its just facts and not the first time it happened (happened their entire career more or less)


A race pretty straight forward to what was expected. Doubt WVA will win flandern not cause hes not strong enough but beacuse hes facing MVDP and pog etc which is just way stronger so unless they dont ride he wont ever win. MVDP did to him yesterday is what has accured their entire career when their both peak form the sooner some people realize the facts the better of they are.

WVA will be the first person to admit it you can also see it the way he rides everytime MVDP is in the race vs not.

 

[Boes]

His race of E3 was confirmed yesterday. In E3 he lacked a small punch to follow on Kwaremont. RVV is longer, harder and never lies. He's the 3rd best this season in the spring classics.

 

[vwpe]

His race of E3 was confirmed yesterday. In E3 he lacked a small punch to follow on Kwaremont. RVV is longer, harder and never lies. He's the 3rd best this season in the spring classics.

like most years before just behind the big boys MVDP and Pogacar.

WVA is best of the rest but not on their lvl and quite far apart actually in term of strenght and power.

 

[Boes]

like most years before just behind the big boys MVDP and Pogacar.

WVA is best of the rest but not on their lvl and quite far apart actually in term of strenght and power.

To soon to say. In RVV and MSR poggy and MVP were stronger.
But he still gets his chance in PR and WC.

Roubaix seems to suit him better and he's usually a lot stronger in july than he is in April. Winning one of both races will change the perception of his season dramastically.

 

[vwpe]

To soon to say. In RVV and MSR poggy and MVP were stronger.
But he still gets his chance in PR and WC.

Roubaix seems to suit him better and he's usually a lot stronger in july than he is in April. Winning one of both races will change the perception of his season dramastically.

to soon to say? like you judge on this race alone? Have you not watched what has unfolded lat 5 years or heck even MVDP and WVA entire careers basicly ? its definetly not to soon to say its more yet another results which gets in line what weve seen so far their entire careers. Nothing new.

Im barking up the wrong three i get it but yeah WVA in peak form getting dropped again vs MVDP is nothing new what im getting at ,,its the same tune what has been going on for their entire careers and with that beeing facts this results shouldnt surprise anyone.

 

[Blanco]

Mental is part of being in top shape in the key/critical moments, which Wout has trouble with in the biggest one-day goals. His highest levels have been at the Tour, where he doesn't have the real pressure of the team. He thus seems to bend somewhat when it's all on his shoulders and fails to meet the expectations.

If you're in shape you're in shape, there's no critical moments. You either have the legs or don't. He just isn't good enough for those two guys, it's that simple.
Mental thing would be if he somehow made a mistake, could follow but didn't, or something like that, rode too much conservative, or vice-versa. But no, he didn't have tactical mistakes, he just physically couldn't follow Van Der Poel and Pogacar.
Look at Valverde for example, he had some mental things in biggest races, often rode too conservative and made some mistakes that cost him some big wins, Lombardia 2014 and Worlds 2013 comes to mind...
And Tour, he needs to understand that Tour isn't the race that will define his career. It's nice when you're strong there, collecting stage wins, making some great performances, but he's a classics guy, just look at how big classics riders of the near past treated that race: Museeuw, Bartoli, Bettini, Freire, Boonen, Cancellara, Gilbert...
He's an exceptional rider, no doubt about that, but right now it seems to me that he's half a step below the very best, at least in classics.

 

[Extinction]

If you're in shape you're in shape, there's no critical moments. You either have the legs or don't. He just isn't good enough for those two guys, it's that simple.
Mental thing would be if he somehow made a mistake, could follow but didn't, or something like that, rode too much conservative, or vice-versa. But no, he didn't have tactical mistakes, he just physically couldn't follow Van Der Poel and Pogacar.
Look at Valverde for example, he had some mental things in biggest races, often rode too conservative and made some mistakes that cost him some big wins, Lombardia 2014 and Worlds 2013 comes to mind...
And Tour, he needs to understand that Tour isn't the race that will define his career. It's nice when you're strong there, collecting stage wins, making some great performances, but he's a classics guy, just look at how big classics riders of the near past treated that race: Museeuw, Bartoli, Bettini, Freire, Boonen, Cancellara, Gilbert...
He's an exceptional rider, no doubt about that, but right now it seems to me that he's half a step below the very best, at least in classics.

Not at all. The mind is a powerful thing. Wout has a higher level than he shows in Flanders, his head just prevents his body from reaching it. Otherwise he would not do the feats he has done at the Tour.

 

[Rackham]

And Tour, he needs to understand that Tour isn't the race that will define his career. It's nice when you're strong there, collecting stage wins, making some great performances, but he's a classics guy, just look at how big classics riders of the near past treated that race: Museeuw, Bartoli, Bettini, Freire, Boonen, Cancellara, Gilbert...
He's an exceptional rider, no doubt about that, but right now it seems to me that he's half a step below the very best, at least in classics.

If Wout van Aert continues to absolutely smash the Tour in July whilst collecting stages & also winning some other stuff throughout the year, then he's not exactly a "classics guy" is he? He's like a brilliant all-rounder who can win the Ventoux & also win green in the TdF.

The "classics guy" label isn't written in stone, i.e. just because a rider is expected to excel at something it doesn't mean that's what he's really good at or that's what he'll win (like in France, Alaphilippe was expected to win Liège already years ago, i.e. something which looks increasingly unlikely, yet he won 2 Worlds back to back & will be remembered for that).

And yes with regards to WvA, being mega strong in the Tour will absolutely define his career. The Ventoux win, the Champs win, last year's green, dropping Pog on Hautacam. These were legendary rides in the biggest race of the year.

 

[Boes]

to soon to say? like you judge on this race alone? Have you not watched what has unfolded lat 5 years or heck even MVDP and WVA entire careers basicly ? its definetly not to soon to say its more yet another results which gets in line what weve seen so far their entire careers. Nothing new.

Im barking up the wrong three i get it but yeah WVA in peak form getting dropped again vs MVDP is nothing new what im getting at ,,its the same tune what has been going on for their entire careers and with that beeing facts this results shouldnt surprise anyone.

True. MVP is stronger in classics like RVV or MSR.
In Roubaix I think they start at equal footing and in classics like Strade or LBL WVA might even, arguably, be a tad stronger.

But my 'to soon to say' was merely about this season. We're only april so WVA might still outshine his eternal rival but only if he manages to take Roubaix and/or WC.

I've heard in Belgian media this morning that Wout had Covid in february beginning of his training camp. That might also explain why he missed a few % to stay with MVP. To be able to stay with Poggy is an entire other matter but if MVP and WVA could have stayed together after Paterberg then I don't think Poggy would have won.

 

[Blanco]

If Wout van Aert continues to absolutely smash the Tour in July whilst collecting stages & also winning some other stuff throughout the year, then he's not exactly a "classics guy" is he? He's like a brilliant all-rounder who can win the Ventoux & also win green in the TdF.

The "classics guy" label isn't written in stone, i.e. just because a rider is expected to excel at something it doesn't mean that's what he's really good at or that's what he'll win (like in France, Alaphilippe was expected to win Liège already years ago, i.e. something which looks increasingly unlikely, yet he won 2 Worlds back to back & will be remembered for that).

And yes with regards to WvA, being mega strong in the Tour will absolutely define his career. The Ventoux win, the Champs win, last year's green, dropping Pog on Hautacam. These were legendary rides in the biggest race of the year.

Look, if you want to reach the legendary status, and belong to the very exclusive club of the cycling greats, then Tour de France won't do the thing, unless you're winning the whole thing.

 

[Rackham]

Look, if you want to reach the legendary status, and belong to the very exclusive club of the cycling greats, then Tour de France won't do the thing, unless you're winning the whole thing.

I disagree.

I think modern cycling is barely comparable to past eras therefor the importance given to certain results over others is also not as great as some imagine. Beyond all the evident stuff like bike technology, tactics & rider preparation, the bottom line is that the audio-visual & media landscape accounts for (I'll take a guess) 99% of a sportsperson's renown. In 2023, everything is on TV. Everything is on social media. It's no longer about a bunch of people huddled around a radio listening to live reporting on a cycling Monument, or looking for a report in a newspaper the following day to find out a race result, or about Belgians who want their own homegrown riders to win their own home Monuments.

Today it's about every single race with televised broadcast around the world & shared all over social media, it's about anyone on the planet being able to watch the Ventoux stage in 2021 & thinking "he's so cool!". I know there's a few who don't like to hear this but their own historically important riders & events started out the same way, i.e. getting more media coverage & growing as result of that. It's why Poulidor is such a legendary rider in France, i.e. because he lost in front of the nation again & again in a massively mediatized event. It's why the 1970's Dutch national football is so famous despite the fact they lost, i.e. because their defeats happened on the biggest stage.

So as long as Wout van Aert wins big races against legendary riders like Pogacar, Van der Poel & the rest throughout the season, he'll have a successful career & will absolutely be remembered - irrespective of whether he loses Monuments. That's just the way it is. Every race is a battleground & an opportunity to become famous. No more so than the TdF of course, whether it's winning the thing, coming second or simply winning some auxiliary jersey & stages. It's all live on tv with instant internet coverage & a Belgian rider can find himself having more fans abroad than he does in his own country, i.e. fans who don't see Monuments as the be all end all.

 

[Extinction]

I disagree.

I think modern cycling is barely comparable to past eras therefor the importance given to certain results over others is also not as great as some imagine. Beyond all the evident stuff like bike technology, tactics & rider preparation, the bottom line is that the audio-visual & media landscape accounts for (I'll take a guess) 99% of a sportsperson's renown. In 2023, everything is on TV. Everything is on social media. It's no longer about a bunch of people huddled around a radio listening to live reporting on a cycling Monument, or looking for a report in a newspaper the following day to find out a race result, or about Belgians who want their own homegrown riders to win their own home Monuments.

Today it's about every single race with televised broadcast around the world & shared all over social media, it's about anyone on the planet being able to watch the Ventoux stage in 2021 & thinking "he's so cool!". I know there's a few who don't like to hear this but their own historically important riders & events started out the same way, i.e. getting more media coverage & growing as result of that. It's why Poulidor is such a legendary rider in France, i.e. because he lost in front of the nation again & again in a massively mediatized event. It's why the 1970's Dutch national football is so famous despite the fact they lost, i.e. because their defeats happened on the biggest stage.

So as long as Wout van Aert wins big races against legendary riders like Pogacar, Van der Poel & the rest throughout the season, he'll have a successful career & will absolutely be remembered - irrespective of whether he loses Monuments. That's just the way it is. Every race is a battleground & an opportunity to become famous. No more so than the TdF of course, whether it's winning the thing, coming second or simply winning some auxiliary jersey & stages. It's all live on tv with instant internet coverage & a Belgian rider can find himself having more fans abroad than he does in his own country, i.e. fans who don't see Monuments as the be all end all.

Peace.

 

[Extinction]

I disagree.

I think modern cycling is barely comparable to past eras therefor the importance given to certain results over others is also not as great as some imagine. Beyond all the evident stuff like bike technology, tactics & rider preparation, the bottom line is that the audio-visual & media landscape accounts for (I'll take a guess) 99% of a sportsperson's renown. In 2023, everything is on TV. Everything is on social media. It's no longer about a bunch of people huddled around a radio listening to live reporting on a cycling Monument, or looking for a report in a newspaper the following day to find out a race result, or about Belgians who want their own homegrown riders to win their own home Monuments.

Today it's about every single race with televised broadcast around the world & shared all over social media, it's about anyone on the planet being able to watch the Ventoux stage in 2021 & thinking "he's so cool!". I know there's a few who don't like to hear this but their own historically important riders & events started out the same way, i.e. getting more media coverage & growing as result of that. It's why Poulidor is such a legendary rider in France, i.e. because he lost in front of the nation again & again in a massively mediatized event. It's why the 1970's Dutch national football is so famous despite the fact they lost, i.e. because their defeats happened on the biggest stage.

So as long as Wout van Aert wins big races against legendary riders like Pogacar, Van der Poel & the rest throughout the season, he'll have a successful career & will absolutely be remembered - irrespective of whether he loses Monuments. That's just the way it is. Every race is a battleground & an opportunity to become famous. No more so than the TdF of course, whether it's winning the thing, coming second or simply winning some auxiliary jersey & stages. It's all live on tv with instant internet coverage & a Belgian rider can find himself having more fans abroad than he does in his own country, i.e. fans who don't see Monuments as the be all end all.

And then there is the next round where it all begins anew. It must be difficult in the age of social media where everythig is scrutinized

I disagree.

I think modern cycling is barely comparable to past eras therefor the importance given to certain results over others is also not as great as some imagine. Beyond all the evident stuff like bike technology, tactics & rider preparation, the bottom line is that the audio-visual & media landscape accounts for (I'll take a guess) 99% of a sportsperson's renown. In 2023, everything is on TV. Everything is on social media. It's no longer about a bunch of people huddled around a radio listening to live reporting on a cycling Monument, or looking for a report in a newspaper the following day to find out a race result, or about Belgians who want their own homegrown riders to win their own home Monuments.

Today it's about every single race with televised broadcast around the world & shared all over social media, it's about anyone on the planet being able to watch the Ventoux stage in 2021 & thinking "he's so cool!". I know there's a few who don't like to hear this but their own historically important riders & events started out the same way, i.e. getting more media coverage & growing as result of that. It's why Poulidor is such a legendary rider in France, i.e. because he lost in front of the nation again & again in a massively mediatized event. It's why the 1970's Dutch national football is so famous despite the fact they lost, i.e. because their defeats happened on the biggest stage.

So as long as Wout van Aert wins big races against legendary riders like Pogacar, Van der Poel & the rest throughout the season, he'll have a successful career & will absolutely be remembered - irrespective of whether he loses Monuments. That's just the way it is. Every race is a battleground & an opportunity to become famous. No more so than the TdF of course, whether it's winning the thing, coming second or simply winning some auxiliary jersey & stages. It's all live on tv with instant internet coverage & a Belgian rider can find himself having more fans abroad than he does in his own country, i.e. fans who don't see Monuments as the be all end all.

Everything is reset from the beginning.

 

[Bolder]

If Wout van Aert continues to absolutely smash the Tour in July whilst collecting stages & also winning some other stuff throughout the year, then he's not exactly a "classics guy" is he? He's like a brilliant all-rounder who can win the Ventoux & also win green in the TdF.

The "classics guy" label isn't written in stone, i.e. just because a rider is expected to excel at something it doesn't mean that's what he's really good at or that's what he'll win (like in France, Alaphilippe was expected to win Liège already years ago, i.e. something which looks increasingly unlikely, yet he won 2 Worlds back to back & will be remembered for that).

And yes with regards to WvA, being mega strong in the Tour will absolutely define his career. The Ventoux win, the Champs win, last year's green, dropping Pog on Hautacam. These were legendary rides in the biggest race of the year.

I get what you're saying but he is racing as a helping hand in the Tour, hence the stakes are lower. Any personal glory is incidental. That said I would be stunned if he never won another monument or a WCRR. He's just too good.

 

[Carrick-On-Seine]

To soon to say. In RVV and MSR poggy and MVP were stronger.
But he still gets his chance in PR and WC.

Roubaix seems to suit him better and he's usually a lot stronger in july than he is in April. Winning one of both races will change the perception of his season dramastically.

He's in a team with the world champion who should be outright leader.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I disagree.

I think modern cycling is barely comparable to past eras therefor the importance given to certain results over others is also not as great as some imagine. Beyond all the evident stuff like bike technology, tactics & rider preparation, the bottom line is that the audio-visual & media landscape accounts for (I'll take a guess) 99% of a sportsperson's renown. In 2023, everything is on TV. Everything is on social media. It's no longer about a bunch of people huddled around a radio listening to live reporting on a cycling Monument, or looking for a report in a newspaper the following day to find out a race result, or about Belgians who want their own homegrown riders to win their own home Monuments.

Today it's about every single race with televised broadcast around the world & shared all over social media, it's about anyone on the planet being able to watch the Ventoux stage in 2021 & thinking "he's so cool!". I know there's a few who don't like to hear this but their own historically important riders & events started out the same way, i.e. getting more media coverage & growing as result of that. It's why Poulidor is such a legendary rider in France, i.e. because he lost in front of the nation again & again in a massively mediatized event. It's why the 1970's Dutch national football is so famous despite the fact they lost, i.e. because their defeats happened on the biggest stage.

So as long as Wout van Aert wins big races against legendary riders like Pogacar, Van der Poel & the rest throughout the season, he'll have a successful career & will absolutely be remembered - irrespective of whether he loses Monuments. That's just the way it is. Every race is a battleground & an opportunity to become famous. No more so than the TdF of course, whether it's winning the thing, coming second or simply winning some auxiliary jersey & stages. It's all live on tv with instant internet coverage & a Belgian rider can find himself having more fans abroad than he does in his own country, i.e. fans who don't see Monuments as the be all end all.

WVA is not a legend and I don't think MVP is too. They need to win more. Their charisma and panache is great but they need to add something big to their palmares more frequently. For MVP, he needs to add Roubaix and WC or win more Flanders and MSR (realistic goals). WVA will almost be remember as a GVA and even GVA has a Roubaix and an olympic gold medal.

 

[Gwbert]

WVA is not a legend and I don't think MVP is too. They need to win more. Their charisma and panache is great but they need to add something big to their palmares more frequently. For MVP, he needs to add Roubaix and WC or win more Flanders and MSR (realistic goals). WVA will almost be remember as a GVA and even GVA has a Roubaix and an olympic gold medal.

I think WVA could be remembered as an eternal second a la Poulidor, especially at WC level (TT & RR), but with his Tour stages and CX career he’s already more successful than GVA imho.

 

[frisenfruitig]

He's in a team with the world champion who should be outright leader.

He's not going to be outright leader with WVA in the same team.
It wouldn't be a smart racing strategy either, they are complimentary riders.

Letting Evenepoel go on the offensive while WVA sits on everyone's wheels seems like a pretty tough strategy to beat.
Most other countries don't have 2 guys on that level, it would be stupid not to use them both as leaders.

As far as the RVV, I really feel for WVA. He wants to win it so badly and he already should have won it once.
In hindsight he never should have lost that sprint against VDP in 2020, but it was his own fault by not starting the sprint earlier.

This time there were 2 guys stronger on the day, not much he could have done against that. *** happens.
Still plenty of years left to at least win RVV and PR once but the longer it takes the harder it will become both mentally and physically.

 

[Boes]

He's in a team with the world champion who should be outright leader.

Is this Alaphilippe trying to make Belgian's tactics work for him again?

This discussion has been done before. It would be stupid not to rely on 2 tactics with WVA and Remco in one team.

 

[Netserk]

If you're in shape you're in shape, there's no critical moments. You either have the legs or don't. He just isn't good enough for those two guys, it's that simple.
Mental thing would be if he somehow made a mistake, could follow but didn't, or something like that, rode too much conservative, or vice-versa. But no, he didn't have tactical mistakes, he just physically couldn't follow Van Der Poel and Pogacar.
Look at Valverde for example, he had some mental things in biggest races, often rode too conservative and made some mistakes that cost him some big wins, Lombardia 2014 and Worlds 2013 comes to mind...
And Tour, he needs to understand that Tour isn't the race that will define his career. It's nice when you're strong there, collecting stage wins, making some great performances, but he's a classics guy, just look at how big classics riders of the near past treated that race: Museeuw, Bartoli, Bettini, Freire, Boonen, Cancellara, Gilbert...
He's an exceptional rider, no doubt about that, but right now it seems to me that he's half a step below the very best, at least in classics.

What defined the careers of Sagan and Cancellara? Not only classics.

5 opening ITTs resulting in 29 days in yellow (with a stage win in yellow and an additional ITT) is a cornerstone of Cancellara's career together with all his other ITT wins.

Sagan in green will probably be the image of him that will be remembered the most, even more than his Ronde and Roubaix wins in stripes. Of course that counts for more than nothing, also in 30 or 50 years.

Just like Zabel is remembered as Mr. Green, not as a classics rider.

 

[Bolder]

What defined the careers of Sagan and Cancellara? Not only classics.

5 opening ITTs resulting in 29 days in yellow (with a stage win in yellow and an additional ITT) is a cornerstone of Cancellara's career together with all his other ITT wins.

Sagan in green will probably be the image of him that will be remembered the most, even more than his Ronde and Roubaix wins in stripes. Of course that counts for more than nothing, also in 30 or 50 years.

Just like Zabel is remembered as Mr. Green, not as a classics rider.

Sagan's 3 WCRR in a row will forever define him. that was a monumental feat, as it were.

 

[Netserk]

Sagan's 3 WCRR in a row will forever define him. that was a monumental feat, as it were.

As results, for sure. But the rides were not particularly memorable, only Richmond and that was brief.

In my mind's eye, when I in 10 years will recall Sagan, it'll be him in the classics wearing stripes or in the Tour wearing green.

 

[Carrick-On-Seine]

What defined the careers of Sagan and Cancellara? Not only classics.

5 opening ITTs resulting in 29 days in yellow (with a stage win in yellow and an additional ITT) is a cornerstone of Cancellara's career together with all his other ITT wins.

Sagan in green will probably be the image of him that will be remembered the most, even more than his Ronde and Roubaix wins in stripes. Of course that counts for more than nothing, also in 30 or 50 years.

Just like Zabel is remembered as Mr. Green, not as a classics rider.

It's all down to our own personal tastes. There's a new GCN documentary on Boonen vs Cancellera and at the end the three panellists had to choose who had the best career.
It came down to a split vote and the casting vote chose * because he just preferred * races to *** races.
Hope those asterisks makes sense; I didn't want to spoil the programme for anyone who hasn't watched it yet.