Olympics Doping Thread

[Rob27172]

Re: Re:

You can have all the technique in the world but if you don't have the power on launch then you are never going to be a great pole vaulter, pole vault is about technique + power output,

That's a very simplistic formula, I don't think you have an idea how things work. Again, technique is what is determinant. Check the history books.

which is why strength training is important, not sure what this has to do with endurance cyclists with low upper body strength, weight lifters with technique training might do a good pole vault.

Ok, I get it, you're not trying to be serious. Forget about it.

Sorry but your argument is total rubbish
Superior technique is the determinant factor in ANY SPORT
For any swimmer to be a top contender their technique has to be the best - Phelps technique for the butterfly is the best in the world - Leddecky for the women in the front crawl
Thechnique for cyclists is huge and is what keeps many of the club cyclists from getting better - top pro cyclists spend the winter training their legs in technique - it is a technique to be able to spin over 110RPM and to be able to do that for long periods means you will be better able to spina at 100 or 90 as you increase power so you go faster at higher power = faster cycling

Same in pole vault. Fast run into the bar is required - to be fast requires strength in the legs
Good plant of the pole requires good ab strength and good arm balance and control - again strength is crucial in being able to deliver the pole to the corect place every time.
the extension at the top of the pole requires superior ab strength and arm strength and co-ordination

Yes technique is a determining factor (as it is in all sports ) but without a good run and strong abs and arms and shoulders you would not clear a good height so doping to enable that strength and to enable the continuous practice to acquire the trechnique correctly will assist in becomming a great vaulter.
And the greats probably all doped to begin with to get to the top through excessive training and then doped to stay there as their strength went off over the years

Sorry but please don't think pole vault is some magical sport that is exempt from the requirements of all others it is not

 

[AlbineVespuzzio]

Re: Re:

You can have all the technique in the world but if you don't have the power on launch then you are never going to be a great pole vaulter, pole vault is about technique + power output,

That's a very simplistic formula, I don't think you have an idea how things work. Again, technique is what is determinant. Check the history books.

which is why strength training is important, not sure what this has to do with endurance cyclists with low upper body strength, weight lifters with technique training might do a good pole vault.

Ok, I get it, you're not trying to be serious. Forget about it.

Women's pole vault record: 5.06m (Yelena Isinbayeva)
Men's pole vault record: 6.14m (Renaud Lavillenie)

Major difference between men and women, upper body strength.

Or are you going to argue that men have better technique as women?

Men do have better technique than women. The only woman who can compete in technique with most men is indeed Isinbayeva.

But in the end your attempt is a false equivalence symptomatic of simplistic thinking. Men are not comparable by any measure with women: that's why they don't face each other.
To make your case you would need a woman doping being able to compete with men. Your numbers show they don't.

To reiterate: Women against women: technique makes the difference.
Men against men: technique makes the difference.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

You can have all the technique in the world but if you don't have the power on launch then you are never going to be a great pole vaulter, pole vault is about technique + power output,

That's a very simplistic formula, I don't think you have an idea how things work. Again, technique is what is determinant. Check the history books.

which is why strength training is important, not sure what this has to do with endurance cyclists with low upper body strength, weight lifters with technique training might do a good pole vault.

Ok, I get it, you're not trying to be serious. Forget about it.

Sorry but your argument is total rubbish
Superior technique is the determinant factor in ANY SPORT
For any swimmer to be a top contender their technique has to be the best - Phelps technique for the butterfly is the best in the world - Leddecky for the women in the front crawl
Thechnique for cyclists is huge and is what keeps many of the club cyclists from getting better - top pro cyclists spend the winter training their legs in technique - it is a technique to be able to spin over 110RPM and to be able to do that for long periods means you will be better able to spina at 100 or 90 as you increase power so you go faster at higher power = faster cycling

Same in pole vault. Fast run into the bar is required - to be fast requires strength in the legs
Good plant of the pole requires good ab strength and good arm balance and control - again strength is crucial in being able to deliver the pole to the corect place every time.
the extension at the top of the pole requires superior ab strength and arm strength and co-ordination

Yes technique is a determining factor (as it is in all sports ) but without a good run and strong abs and arms and shoulders you would not clear a good height so doping to enable that strength and to enable the continuous practice to acquire the trechnique correctly will assist in becomming a great vaulter.
And the greats probably all doped to begin with to get to the top through excessive training and then doped to stay there as their strength went off over the years

Sorry but please don't think pole vault is some magical sport that is exempt from the requirements of all others it is not

They all have superior technique. You dont get to this level without it.

Doping tends to then be the determining factor.

 

[Winnats]

Re:

The thing is, GB not only beat competitors but also smashed ORs and WRs. Nobody went easy against them. To the tech point, advancements in tech are normally noticed by other mechanics either watching or on another team - I haven't heard of any major ones spotted.

Well, I think we could agree that Olypmic records are always four years out of date and so advances in technique and tech ensure they are fairly easily broken (c.f. most world records in track cycling have been set since 2012 by various nations - who could forget Pervais' outstanding 1km TT in Mexico? ).

For the WR, yes both men's and women's 4km TT pursuit went - in the men's the Aussies were very close to winning and in the womens - well that's only been an event for 3 years and that GB team has always been incredibly strong both at 3km and 4km.

As for the tech, like I said, just a thought experiment. Feel free to disagree.

 

[AlbineVespuzzio]

Re: Re:

You can have all the technique in the world but if you don't have the power on launch then you are never going to be a great pole vaulter, pole vault is about technique + power output,

That's a very simplistic formula, I don't think you have an idea how things work. Again, technique is what is determinant. Check the history books.

which is why strength training is important, not sure what this has to do with endurance cyclists with low upper body strength, weight lifters with technique training might do a good pole vault.

Ok, I get it, you're not trying to be serious. Forget about it.

Sorry but your argument is total rubbish
Superior technique is the determinant factor in ANY SPORT
For any swimmer to be a top contender their technique has to be the best - Phelps technique for the butterfly is the best in the world - Leddecky for the women in the front crawl
Thechnique for cyclists is huge and is what keeps many of the club cyclists from getting better - top pro cyclists spend the winter training their legs in technique - it is a technique to be able to spin over 110RPM and to be able to do that for long periods means you will be better able to spina at 100 or 90 as you increase power so you go faster at higher power = faster cycling

Same in pole vault. Fast run into the bar is required - to be fast requires strength in the legs
Good plant of the pole requires good ab strength and good arm balance and control - again strength is crucial in being able to deliver the pole to the corect place every time.
the extension at the top of the pole requires superior ab strength and arm strength and co-ordination

Yes technique is a determining factor (as it is in all sports ) but without a good run and strong abs and arms and shoulders you would not clear a good height so doping to enable that strength and to enable the continuous practice to acquire the trechnique correctly will assist in becomming a great vaulter.
And the greats probably all doped to begin with to get to the top through excessive training and then doped to stay there as their strength went off over the years

Sorry but please don't think pole vault is some magical sport that is exempt from the requirements of all others it is not

You're not getting the point. The point is that in certain disciplines you can be a bad performer with bad technique, but still become dominant with the help of doping like Lance and Froome show. In Pole Vault that's impossible to replicate. Because it's an extreme technical discipline.

The difference is that on the first case, you can have a very reasonable suspicion based on performance.
In the second case, you cannot. Which is how this thing started, with someone doubting the brasilian guy victory yesterday. I told him to pay attention to his technique and who taught him.

Again, I would request the members to pay attention to what I wrote and follow the context of the discussion, to avoid making assumptions that I'm saying what I'm not saying.

 

[Cannibal72]

Don't confuse aesthetics and technique. I'm pretty sure that, for their body type, Froome and Armstrong ride in a very technically adept way.

 

[AlbineVespuzzio]

Another example is Perkovic, just today in another technical discipline, discus throw. Even though admittedly a discipline not as technical as pole vault and she was caught in a doping offense, the point is that the discipline is technical enough to make the difference.

Pay attention to Perkovic throwing technique and all the others, you'll see the difference. That's what justifies her dominance and makes her a superior athlete than all the others.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Specific to Cycling, the track has been mentioned multiple times on the NBC streams as being "fast with longer straights".

Anyone with better knowledge than I possess, able to comment on the track layout?

 

[BeagRigh]

Also put this in the Brit thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHqC33gCSpU

There's some gems here! Rumours GB track team have "special" kit they only use at the Olympic and destory afterward to stop it falling into others hands.... Anyone heard of that before?

 

[thehog]

Re:

Specific to Cycling, the track has been mentioned multiple times on the NBC streams as being "fast with longer straights".

Anyone with better knowledge than I possess, able to comment on the track layout?

That is a question of mathematics; Can a velodrome track of equal length have desperate sized lengths and curves if each curve is 180c? The answer is no. It’s not possible. However you they are allowed to have different lengths tracks which cover more laps than the norm. Tracks are not like in athletics of equal length. The Olympics may prescribe a set length. My understanding its between 250m to 500m per lap is allowable.

 

[Cannibal72]

By the way, it's apparently 27 degrees, which is a degree colder than London. (Hotter=faster.)

 

[Lyon]

We get it now. Pole Vault and certain other disciplines (like javelin) is exempt from the laws of physics. They reside on the astral plane, where technique is to be found.

But hold on a minute Lyon! Why the sarcasm? Do you not agree with the angry one? Indeed I do, pole vault and javelin are more dependent on technique than, say, sprinting, even though sprinting too is more dependent upon technique than is usually assumed by those not in the know, like fans of pole vault and javelin. It is very well known that the best pole vaulters and javelinists are not among the strongest within their chosen discipline. That is left to the also-rans who's greatest asset it is.

What then is your beef here? My beef here, as you put it, is that the word 'technique' has yet to be defined. Some people seem to think it exists solely by itself, with no relation to the other aspects of sport, and that, consequently, these other aspects have no relation to technique. This is a strange way of thinking of technique, but not unheard of among fans of other sports like, say, football.

It is a bit worrying that people who speak as if from a point of authority fail to establish even the most basic premise for debate. Then again, we have all been blinded fans of some sport or discipline at some point in time. Until our eyes where opened.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Re:

Also put this in the Brit thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHqC33gCSpU

There's some gems here! Rumours GB track team have "special" kit they only use at the Olympic and destory afterward to stop it falling into others hands.... Anyone heard of that before?

That was said to have happened after London and I think Beijing.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Re: Re:

Specific to Cycling, the track has been mentioned multiple times on the NBC streams as being "fast with longer straights".

Anyone with better knowledge than I possess, able to comment on the track layout?

That is a question of mathematics; Can a velodrome track of equal length have desperate sized lengths and curves if each curve is 180c? The answer is no. It’s not possible. However you they are allowed to have different lengths tracks which cover more laps than the norm. Tracks are not like in athletics of equal length. The Olympics may prescribe a set length. My understanding its between 250m to 500m per lap is allowable.

It certainly is possible mathematically, you can have a tighter turn and longer straights, or broader sweeping turns and shorter straights. Doing that when having 'enough' infield is tricky. Ensuring a tighter turn is actually faster is another dilemma.

i don't know enough about track design to know if its possible that this track is genuinely fast or if it is just a line from the commentators.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Specific to Cycling, the track has been mentioned multiple times on the NBC streams as being "fast with longer straights".

Anyone with better knowledge than I possess, able to comment on the track layout?

That is a question of mathematics; Can a velodrome track of equal length have desperate sized lengths and curves if each curve is 180c? The answer is no. It’s not possible. However you they are allowed to have different lengths tracks which cover more laps than the norm. Tracks are not like in athletics of equal length. The Olympics may prescribe a set length. My understanding its between 250m to 500m per lap is allowable.

It certainly is possible mathematically, you can have a tighter turn and longer straights, or broader sweeping turns and shorter straights. Doing that when having 'enough' infield is tricky. Ensuring a tighter turn is actually faster is another dilemma.

i don't know enough about track design to know if its possible that this track is genuinely fast or if it is just a line from the commentators.

The curves have to be 180c, so it won't be possible unless the actual circumference of the track is of a different length.

 

[el chava]

Re: Re:

...
According to that Scandinavia must be the doping center of the world...

http://www.medalspercapita.com/#medals-per-capita:all-time

Fair point.
Scandinavian countries definitely deserve much more attention than they are getting.
Blood doping for athletic purposes was practically invented there.
My 2 cents is that doping is both rampant AND highly sophisticated in those countries.
Note that Scandinavia also host a high number of more or less renowned 'anti'doping specialists. Ekblom, Damsgaard, etc.

Forget about protestant work ethic and extensive social welfare systems. East Germany go home, Scandinavia is where it's at.

 

[Poursuivant]

Almaz Ayana in her heat today. She literally looked like she got bored and upped the tempo.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Hog if you mean 180 degrees, that turn can be tighter or broader, unless there is a specified radius as well. (For track and field their is a preferred radius and a range allowed, as I recall the Wembley track and huge curves and shorter straights. The old Calshot velodrome is short anyway, but super tight turn due to the build it is in).

As an extreme example - if the straights were 10m apart, the radius would be 5m - distance on the turn would (pi*5*5)/2 (roughly 39m each, so 78m turns and 172m (86m each) straights).
If the straights are 5m apart, the radius of the turn would be 2.5m - distance on the turn would be (Pi*2.5*2.5)/2 (roughly 10m each, 20 m total tight turns and 230 m (115m each) straights


Probably the wrong subforum to be discussing the details, but I was curious about the NBC commentary.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Some of the boxing decisions over the last couple of days have made me wonder why any amateur boxer is doping when a much more efficient and reliable method of winning is to simply pay the judges.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Same as it ever was in Gymnastics, diving and other sports with judges.

 

[bikenrrd]

Re: Re:

Specific to Cycling, the track has been mentioned multiple times on the NBC streams as being "fast with longer straights".

Anyone with better knowledge than I possess, able to comment on the track layout?

That is a question of mathematics; Can a velodrome track of equal length have desperate sized lengths and curves if each curve is 180c? The answer is no. It’s not possible.

Seriously? You can if the curves are (half) ellipses rather than semi-circles. You might not be able to successfully ride the track, but you could certainly build them with longer or shorter straights.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Re: Re:

You're not getting the point. The point is that in certain disciplines you can be a bad performer with bad technique, but still become dominant with the help of doping like Lance and Froome show. In Pole Vault that's impossible to replicate. Because it's an extreme technical discipline.

The difference is that on the first case, you can have a very reasonable suspicion based on performance.
In the second case, you cannot. Which is how this thing started, with someone doubting the brasilian guy victory yesterday. I told him to pay attention to his technique and who taught him.

Again, I would request the members to pay attention to what I wrote and follow the context of the discussion, to avoid making assumptions that I'm saying what I'm not saying.

Welcome to the Forum. It is called the fundamental attribution error!

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Specific to Cycling, the track has been mentioned multiple times on the NBC streams as being "fast with longer straights".

Anyone with better knowledge than I possess, able to comment on the track layout?

That is a question of mathematics; Can a velodrome track of equal length have desperate sized lengths and curves if each curve is 180c? The answer is no. It’s not possible.

Seriously? You can if the curves are (half) ellipses rather than semi-circles. You might not be able to successfully ride the track, but you could certainly build them with longer or shorter straights.

No, still not possible to do. If the track is to remain the same distance and the curves are 180 degrees, the length of the straights cannot change. If you cut the curve in half (through the cross section of the curve) then the straights will become longer but so will the length of the track.

Per my original statement:

That is a question of mathematics; Can a velodrome track of equal length have desperate sized lengths and curves if each curve is 180c? The answer is no. It’s not possible.

 

[TheGreenMonkey]

Re:

Almaz Ayana in her heat today. She literally looked like she got bored and upped the tempo.

Australian athlete Eloise Wellings who raced the 10000m and finished 10th behind Ayana and also raced in Ayana's heat of the 5000m was asked about Ayana's performances, clearly meaning was she on drugs.
She answered that she could not know whether Ayana was getting "extra assistance" but that she is a beautiful runner. She said that she and the other Australians could only focus on their own clean performances and doing their best to keep up. She also vouched for Vivian Cheruiyot who finished third in the heat as being a clean runner.

It is interesting that a small group of Australian runners are doing quite well at the Olympics. Wellings finished 10th in the 10000m, which is a good result for Australia. Madeline Heiner Hills finished 7th and Genevieve Lacaze finished 9th, both good results for them. All three of them have now made the 5000m final which is unheard of for Australia and they were overjoyed all three made it. Lacaze has run 12 personal bests this year. On top of that Lacaze's boyfriend Ryan Gregson qualified from the first heat of the 1500m and is in career best form.
This might or might not mean anything regarding doping but apparently this group do a lot of training together.

 

[Amnes2015]

So Vogel after gushing about brits and being mediocre till yesterday suddenly destroys everyone , including her own saddle. Good german steak last night lol.

And it's not over yet, watch Eilers do the same thing , from mediocre to win in 24 hours.