Opinion: Will Armstrong do jail time?

[BotanyBay]

Can't argue with that.

There's cheating; and then there's mean, evil, and vindictive...

Even though he was vindictive before this, theday that he chased down Simeoni, that was the "shot heard 'round the world". It was an amazing display of intimidation that was completely lost on everyone that doesn't understand bike racing.

No wonder Simeoni rides with this saddle:

 

[sniper]

Even though he was vindictive before this, theday that he chased down Simeoni, that was the "shot heard 'round the world". It was an amazing display of intimidation that was completely lost on everyone that doesn't understand bike racing.

No wonder Simeoni rides with this saddle:

You're right, of course. That was an amazing display of *sshole-ship. Remorseless. Simeoni had the right to slap LA in the face when LA laid his arms on him during that stage. Probably wise that he didn't.

I wonder if Simeoni'll still go after the 100.000 quid he wanted back then once LA's real deal with Ferrari comes to light.

 

[Race Radio]

The bigger question is not if Armstrong will do jail time but which one of his inner circle will flip?

George and Kevin have already talked. I don't see Stapleton or College saying anything.....but Knaggs? Bart has a family. No way he is going to jail for Wonderboy.

 

[oldschoolnik]

My point is that most of the people on the forum have taken LA's past actions personally. He's called names, blamed for this or that and it's like people here have been personally affected.

Does it really matter if he took PEDS? It's pretty much proven that most cyclists of his generation were involved. Did he really defraud the public or the Postal Service?

How many people quit watching the races he was in? Not many. How much publicity did LA generate for US Postal? I'd imagine far more than they spent on sponsorship? So how did he defraud them?

As for LeMond, he could have kept quiet instead of personally attacking LA. I like LeMond, still repsect him as a cyclist, But his approach cost him more than it had too.

We all act like we were 'taken' by LA. Most of of ride and know how hard it is to do what the pros do and never really believed some of the performances. But it was fun to watch and is still fun to watch. The truth is...LA has done nothing but provide entertainment for millions and made his money, no difference from any other pro athlete or celebrity.

Please explain how Lemond personally attacked Lance? Lemond's approach cost him because Lance attacked him threatened, him and went completely out of his way to try and ruin Lemond - did you read anything about the Trek Lawsuit? Sorry, but no not all Pro riders or pro athletes do any of these things. Respectfully, you have blinders on and have formulated an opinion that prevents you from processing evidence that shows how different LA was and how much of a fraud he was. How many other TDF champs gave $100,000 (or 50,000 or 25,000 depending on who you believe) donations to the UCI? Name another TDF champion who chased down another rider for matters unrelated to the race itself?

 

[oldschoolnik]

Actually he has used his medical history (and the suffering/hope/donations of countless cancer patients) to generate a HUGE payday for himself; and now is using all of his 'philanthropic accomplishment' as a shield against critics and investigators (much like the US presidential candidate did with a young child against an assassination attempt in the Stephen King novel and movie "The Dead Zone") who have been looking into possible illegal and morally questionable activities in which he took part to gain himself fame and fortune.

Sadly he didn't stick to the realm of entertainment, he used tactics far beyond entertainment to get himself a payday much larger than he would have obtained as merely a 'champion athlete'.

+1 Well put.

 

[BotanyBay]

The bigger question is not if Armstrong will do jail time but which one of his inner circle will flip?

George and Kevin have already talked. I don't see Stapleton or College saying anything.....but Knaggs? Bart has a family. No way he is going to jail for Wonderboy.

What about his webmaster guy (can't remember his name). I figure he'd want to "come to jesus" to avoid having them come sniffing through his own personal biz.

 

[sniper]

Actually he has used his medical history (and the suffering/hope/donations of countless cancer patients) to generate a HUGE payday for himself; and now is using all of his 'philanthropic accomplishment' as a shield against critics and investigators (much like the US presidential candidate did with a young child against an assassination attempt in the Stephen King novel and movie "The Dead Zone") who have been looking into possible illegal and morally questionable activities in which he took part to gain himself fame and fortune.

Sadly he didn't stick to the realm of entertainment, he used tactics far beyond entertainment to get himself a payday much larger than he would have obtained as merely a 'champion athlete'.

HOLD UP. You'Re giving the guy waaaaaaaaaay too much credit. I think LA roled into something, and gradually found out there was money to gain.
I wouldn't present it as if it were some kinda masterplan.
Also think of the system that allowed for the whole situation to gain the proportions it has gained.
Power of the masses, power of the media.
The whole idea of stardome. It wasn't Armstrong's working plan to become the star he became. Just a gap he filled. Of course, once he realized his own mediatic potential, he happily took over. But I don't think he had this all figured out from the start.

I mean, in the end, he's just another one of those profiting from a huge lack of awareness in society and a huge desire within that same society to create and celebrate stars.

 

[Race Radio]

My point is that most of the people on the forum have taken LA's past actions personally. He's called names, blamed for this or that and it's like people here have been personally affected.

Does it really matter if he took PEDS? It's pretty much proven that most cyclists of his generation were involved. Did he really defraud the public or the Postal Service?

How many people quit watching the races he was in? Not many. How much publicity did LA generate for US Postal? I'd imagine far more than they spent on sponsorship? So how did he defraud them?

As for LeMond, he could have kept quiet instead of personally attacking LA. I like LeMond, still repsect him as a cyclist, But his approach cost him more than it had too.

We all act like we were 'taken' by LA. Most of of ride and know how hard it is to do what the pros do and never really believed some of the performances. But it was fun to watch and is still fun to watch. The truth is...LA has done nothing but provide entertainment for millions and made his money, no difference from any other pro athlete or celebrity.

You are under the mistake assumption that the federal case is only about defrauding the Postal Service, it is not. There are two cases, one is the whistle blower case and the other is the federal case.

Are you OK with Armstrong not paying taxes? Using experimental drugs? Using the charity for personal gain? Harassing anyone who questioned the myth?

We get it, you are OK with crooks....most are not

 

[Anonymous]

What about his webmaster guy (can't remember his name). I figure he'd want to "come to jesus" to avoid having them come sniffing through his own personal biz.

Chris Brewer. Paceline

 

[jimbob_in_co]

HOLD UP. You'Re giving the guy waaaaaaaaaay too much credit. I think LA roled into something, and gradually found out there was money to gain.
I wouldn't present it as if it were some kinda masterplan.
Also think of the system that allowed for the whole situation to gain the proportions it has gained.
Power of the masses, power of the media.
The whole idea of stardome. It wasn't Armstrong's working plan to become the star he became. Just a gap he filled. Of course, once he realized his own mediatic potential, he happily took over. But I don't think he had this all figured out from the start.

I mean, in the end, he's just another one of those profiting from a huge lack of awareness in society and a huge desire within that same society to create and celebrate stars.

Point taken sniper. Thinking he had this all planned in advance is d@mned near impossible. He was in the right place at the right time, and took FULL advantage of that unique 'cancer charity celebrity' situation.

Thanks for stating all of that so well.

 

[sartain]

HOLD UP. You'Re giving the guy waaaaaaaaaay too much credit. I think LA roled into something, and gradually found out there was money to gain.
I wouldn't present it as if it were some kinda masterplan.
Also think of the system that allowed for the whole situation to gain the proportions it has gained.
Power of the masses, power of the media.
The whole idea of stardome. It wasn't Armstrong's working plan to become the star he became. Just a gap he filled. Of course, once he realized his own mediatic potential, he happily took over. But I don't think he had this all figured out from the start.

I mean, in the end, he's just another one of those profiting from a huge lack of awareness in society and a huge desire within that same society to create and celebrate stars.

I have often wondered about this a lot and was going to post a thread on it a while back; I still think it warrants one. How did this ever get the traction that it did? Was their a master plan or not - I mean the guy does not seem that bright on the surface; maybe he is and we are all dumb. Or perhaps this was all orchestrated by others behind the curtain, or as you imply, it just all fell into place and LA and his inner team of handlers seized the opportunity . . . the media did the rest and a bunch of blind sheep all followed him, hopefully of of a cliff real soon. Cancer is a great magnet.

 

[pmcg76]

I have often wondered about this a lot and was going to post a thread on it a while back; I still think it warrants one. How did this ever get the traction that it did? Was their a master plan or not - I mean the guy does not seem that bright on the surface; maybe he is and we are all dumb. Or perhaps this was all orchestrated by others behind the curtain, or as you imply, it just all fell into place and LA and his inner team of handlers seized the opportunity . . . the media did the rest and a bunch of blind sheep all followed him, hopefully of of a cliff real soon. Cancer is a great magnet.

Agreed, I have wondered the same. Who was it that convinced Lance to shoot for the Tour, Bruyneel?? When they talked about the possibility of winning the first Tour post Festina, surely they must have realised a lot of questions were going to be asked if he was successful considering the situation cycling found itself in.

Surely they must have had a plan in action? Question is, did they realise how significant the cancer angle would prove to be. Was it an integral part of the plan or did it just happen naturally, I mean Lance was getting big press in 98-99 just by returning to the sport, especially in the Anglo media as there was a dearth of English speaking stars at the time. Wouldnt it have good strategic planning to weigh up the cancer angle when planning a massive PR campaign.

I think its a very relevant question.

 

[sniper]

Agreed, I have wondered the same. Who was it that convinced Lance to shoot for the Tour, Bruyneel?? When they talked about the possibility of winning the first Tour post Festina, surely they must have realised a lot of questions were going to be asked if he was successful considering the situation cycling found itself in.

Surely they must have had a plan in action? Question is, did they realise how significant the cancer angle would prove to be. Was it an integral part of the plan or did it just happen naturally, I mean Lance was getting big press in 98-99 just by returning to the sport, especially in the Anglo media as there was a dearth of English speaking stars at the time. Wouldnt it have good strategic planning to weigh up the cancer angle when planning a massive PR campaign.

I think its a very relevant question.

The charity-foundation-cover-up-technique is known in other branches of sports as well. Nadal has his foundation (does Federer? probably), Johan Cruyff, you name them..
I assume it often starts with the intention of improving and/or cleaning up one's public image. That way, whatever you put in it, you get it back manyfold, as your commercial/mediatic value increases proportionally.
Then perhaps there is the underlying idea of money loundring, I'm no expert there.
Only in exceptional cases, it might also be about truly wanting to help society, but only very exceptionally.

In Armstrong's case, the constrellation was perfect, and I think he (and the team around him) realized that as soon as he returned to cycling with the media tumbling all over him.
Then, yes, I think some serious thinktanking by LA's team preceded the 1999 Tour, including conversations with Verbruggen about how to exploit the situation to the max with the knife cutting on both ends, i.e. profit for all involved.
Anyway, I'd also be very curious to learn more about Bruyneel's role.

 

[Velocentric]

I think the Master Plan became evident with this quote regarding his willingness to participate in the investigation:

"I've done too many good things for too many people,"

If that doesn't just STINK of the Charity being a shield I don't know what does.

 

[jimbob_in_co]

"I've done too many good things for too many people,"

Reading that quote was the "'Wile E. Coyote' Moment" for me.
(You know, that second the poor guy looks up, sees the falling boulder, and puts up the parasol so at least he is in the shade waiting for the rock to crush him all the way into the ground.)

After seeing that quote I thought, "Oh geez, THAT is his first stated line of defense? This whole thing is worse than I thought. He truly doesn't have a clue as to how much trouble is coming his way. Dear G0D, was I a sucker."

 

[BotanyBay]

Agreed, I have wondered the same. Who was it that convinced Lance to shoot for the Tour, Bruyneel?? When they talked about the possibility of winning the first Tour post Festina, surely they must have realised a lot of questions were going to be asked if he was successful considering the situation cycling found itself in.

The questions that would be asked paled in comparison to the opportunity that was created in the wake of Festina98. Festina scared the p*ss out of most of the other riders and teams. Many people stopped using EPO (short-term) because of post-Festina fear. A fit rider who was willing to risk everything and STILL use EPO in 1999 could find himself with a huge payoff.

And he did. He mastered how to mask its use, hide it, smuggle it, use it effectively, use OTHER products effectively, etc. And he didn't really need a "Cancer, WTF?" story until after he'd won (no one cared about him beforehand). And hence the book he wrote.

 

[jimbob_in_co]

A fit rider who was willing to risk everything and STILL use EPO in 1999 could find himself with a huge payoff.

The only flaw in the armor of Team Armstrong from that era seems to be the 'urine-flavored' popsicles that hung around to be later tested with improved detection methods. It was almost the perfect crime.

 

[sniper]

Sainz taught Bruyneel, Bruyneel taught Armstrong.
The slickest might turn out to have been Bruyneel.

Can't wait for some preliminary results from Novitzky to become public.

 

[Oldman]

The charity-foundation-cover-up-technique is known in other branches of sports as well. Nadal has his foundation (does Federer? probably), Johan Cruyff, you name them..
I assume it often starts with the intention of improving and/or cleaning up one's public image. That way, whatever you put in it, you get it back manyfold, as your commercial/mediatic value increases proportionally.
Then perhaps there is the underlying idea of money loundring, I'm no expert there.
Only in exceptional cases, it might also be about truly wanting to help society, but only very exceptionally.

In Armstrong's case, the constrellation was perfect, and I think he (and the team around him) realized that as soon as he returned to cycling with the media tumbling all over him.
Then, yes, I think some serious thinktanking by LA's team preceded the 1999 Tour, including conversations with Verbruggen about how to exploit the situation to the max with the knife cutting on both ends, i.e. profit for all involved.
Anyway, I'd also be very curious to learn more about Bruyneel's role.

The charity model has been an active NFL/NBA promotion for years. Those leagues teach atheletes to get involved as both a image builder and legitimate charity. Makes the the ridiculous salaries and profits easier to swallow, I guess. LA did what many suggest: grew into the idea with legal and management guidance from Weisel. Combine that assistance with Johan and you start to have a franchise. LA went wrong when he began exploiting the Cancer charity line, in my mind. That would make him villanous to the public if caught but he probably thought it worth the risk.

 

[fatandfast]

The charity model has been an active NFL/NBA promotion for years. Those leagues teach atheletes to get involved as both a image builder and legitimate charity. Makes the the ridiculous salaries and profits easier to swallow, I guess. LA did what many suggest: grew into the idea with legal and management guidance from Weisel. Combine that assistance with Johan and you start to have a franchise. LA went wrong when he began exploiting the Cancer charity line, in my mind. That would make him villanous to the public if caught but he probably thought it worth the risk.

The United Way and March of Dimes have both had a super succesful relationship with US prof sports. Wiesel has been trading information with Lance since the early 90's way before his was cancer showed it's ugly head. Wiesel is a financial guru that was paying Lance before he had a dime. Who Armstrong is, 80% celeb,9% spokesman 1% athlete fit in perfect w the cancer cause. Armstrong will leave cycling and cancer fund raising in way better condition than when he showed up. In a few years he will do an interview and say I would have never thought raising millions of dollars for charity and buliding profitable cycling businesses would make you so many enemies.

 

[BotanyBay]

The charity model has been an active NFL/NBA promotion for years. Those leagues teach atheletes to get involved as both a image builder and legitimate charity. Makes the the ridiculous salaries and profits easier to swallow, I guess. LA did what many suggest: grew into the idea with legal and management guidance from Weisel. Combine that assistance with Johan and you start to have a franchise. LA went wrong when he began exploiting the Cancer charity line, in my mind. That would make him villanous to the public if caught but he probably thought it worth the risk.

Not an NBA thing, but a "famous/wealthy person" thing:

J-Lo http://www.jenniferlopez-foundation.org/
Bon Jovi http://www.jonbonjovisoulfoundation.org/
Bono http://www.one.org/us/about/
Or, for those too lazy : http://www.candiesfoundation.org/ (Team-up with your BFF stars!)

 

[BotanyBay]

The United Way and March of Dimes have both had a super succesful relationship with US prof sports. Wiesel has been trading information with Lance since the early 90's way before his was cancer showed it's ugly head. Wiesel is a financial guru that was paying Lance before he had a dime. Who Armstrong is, 80% celeb,9% spokesman 1% athlete fit in perfect w the cancer cause. Armstrong will leave cycling and cancer fund raising in way better condition than when he showed up. In a few years he will do an interview and say I would have never thought raising millions of dollars for charity and buliding profitable cycling businesses would make you so many enemies.

Fraud makes the enemies.

Look at Bill Gates. Plenty of people hate the guy for his past business dealings (even I've been personally touched by his wicked finger of business), but as the years go on, he fully redeems himself through the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It isn't Weisel - as they were only together for a short time in the early 90's, it wasn't until 97 (post cancer) that they hooked up again.

The key person is Bill Stapleton, who became LA's agent in 1995, from the CSE website.

CSE's Bill Stapleton is responsible for overseeing the LAF's cause marketing efforts and strategic direction of the LIVESTRONG brand.

Armstrong has always been pretty savy when it came to marketing himself.

He had his own business card from when he was 15

 

[jimbob_in_co]

In a few years he will do an interview and say I would have never thought raising millions of dollars for charity and buliding profitable cycling businesses would make you so many enemies.

Because at that point he will still be a completely self-absorbed, ignorant, arrogant jerk with no concept that those 'other things' he runs into on a daily basis are other human beings who were not put on this Earth primarily for his own personal benefit and amusement.

 

[BotanyBay]

It isn't Weisel - as they were only together for a short time in the early 90's, it wasn't until 97 (post cancer) that they hooked up again.

The key person is Bill Stapleton, who became LA's agent in 1995, from the CSE website.


Armstrong has always been pretty savy when it came to marketing himself.

He had his own business card from when he was 15

Armstrong Kelly said co-workers told her she was crazy when she skipped paying the rent one month to buy a $400 BMX bike for Lance when he was very young. ("I made it up the next months," she quickly added.)

Recently, she ran into one of those co-workers, who told her, "I take it all back!" she confided, smiling widely as the crowd roared its approval for the tiny Texas dynamo in an orange dress and pearls.

"Don't ever let anyone tell you that you can't do it," she said. "Dream big."

Dream Big, Baby. Dream Big, Yeah BOYYYYYYYYYYYYY!