Oscar Pistorius

[gregod]

That's not entirely true. The CAS didn't make the ruling this way because nobody ever did the research that way, which is a major oversight in itself. Without rehashing the entire process, what happened is that the IAAF conducted research which strongly suggested an advantage, and it centered around 2 things - reduced energy cost of running, and completely different mechanics of running.

The Pistorius research then, was perfectly primed because all they had to do was cast doubt on the IAAF research. It's a pretty farcical state of affairs for the science, but anyway.

So what they did in the Pistorius research is to put him on a treadmill and make him run at a series of slow speeds (the fastest he ran was 15km/hour, before he fatigued after 5 minutes) and measure his oxygen use. They did this for Pistorius and a number of other sprinters.

Result - Pistorius used 17% less oxygen, which is important because oxygen is a barometer for metabolic energy use. The way the science was unfolding (PIstorius' lead scientist is a guy who gets big money from Ossur, the company who make the carbon fiber blades), this discovery that Pistorius was so radically different is known as an "OH $H#T finding". So what they then did is go along and look for studies that they could use, and they decided that they'd compare Pistorius to elite and sub-elite DISTANCE runners.

When they did this, then suddenly Pistorius' oxygen use started to look a little more "normal". It was still higher, but close enough, so they concluded that he was "Similar to able bodied runners". This was one of the key scientific findings, astonishingly, to compare a sprinter to a distance runner and say it's normal. Even though five other studies on sprinters show massive differences when compared to Pistorius.

Then came the mechanical data - one of Pistorius' own scientists came out with a paper where he said that the advantage was enormous. He made some mistakes in trying to estimate how large the advantage was, and that was in the end a foolish thing to do, but understandable. Point was, Pistorius is not really even "running" in the way that we understand it. His legs move faster than any runner ever seen, his forces are lower than any runner seen. And so what you have is a theory, proven by the finding, and then explained by the mechanics.

CAS of course didn't consider this, because the scientist who thought there was an advantage did not get a chance to go to CAS and present it. It was all about disproving the IAAF study, so an incomplete science question.

So to answer you, CAS didn't make this judgment. And no, it's not obvious. The mistake you're making is to try to imagine that there is an advantage compared to legs. Don't imagine, just read the evidence...

Ross

so they didn't even consider issues of safety and weight? are these trivial? it seems to be a pretty weird decision.

 

[Cloxxki]

His legs can move faster, due to the shorter effective (centre of mass) pendulum length of his "legs" I suppose.
For able bodied people, it takes extra effort to let the legs swing at higher pace than is natural. With shorter les, you reach a higher turnover. Looks at big horses over mini horses, a big carp over a 4 inch goldfish, or any other proportionate species.

Let Pistorius work a hand bike ergotrainer, compare his data with other sprinters. But it would also need to be done for a sampling of non-athletes, both able and amputeed, to take into account for lower blood volume and body mass (heat).

My verdict: he's a so-so runner with Olympic mentality, and a huge performance boost.

Runners tire their calf muscles to to the job a blade does much better. Only difference is acceleration, where calfs at as contraction muscles. (Joggers run like that at all times, heel landing their feet). At speed, an athlete will only tension the calf. The power put to the ground comes from lifted (and dropped) legs, and working of the arms. I bet I could have a monoblades, and get a good speed going just swinging my arms. It's like poking walking sticks with springs into the ground just behind you when you're in a wheelchair.
Legs take energy to support the body, blades don't tire. They're like wheels, pretty much, just need to time them with the (functioning) upper legs, which are not loaded themselves, as they don't fold or contract. It's all timing for Pistorius.

Again, great Olympian, just not a great psyisical talent. A 400m finalist at 22 years old getting a double amputations, could recover, re-learn to run on blades, and run sub 40 seconds.
I even think Pistorius might be a danger on a 800m. His natural speed is so high, and then having that slower fatique factor...just one, milder start to lose time on... He might be a 1.39.x runner today. But that would kill it with the IAAF, of course.

 

[bigloco]

Cloxxki, I think you are 100 percent spot on. Good post.

I was thinking the 800 or 1500, with the lowered fatigue, would suit him better. But honestly, i was sort of hoping he'd run sub 40 and throw a big wrench in the whole machinery, causing a s#%% storm of epic proportions!

 

[gregod]

.... A 400m finalist at 22 years old getting a double amputations, could recover, re-learn to run on blades, and run sub 40 seconds.
I even think Pistorius might be a danger on a 800m. His natural speed is so high, and then having that slower fatique factor...just one, milder start to lose time on... He might be a 1.39.x runner today. But that would kill it with the IAAF, of course.

Cloxxki, I think you are 100 percent spot on. Good post.

I was thinking the 800 or 1500, with the lowered fatigue, would suit him better. But honestly, i was sort of hoping he'd run sub 40 and throw a big wrench in the whole machinery, causing a s#%% storm of epic proportions!

i don't know about him becoming a good 800m runner. he looked pretty fat compared to the other 400m runners. he would really need to slim his upper body down to be competitive at that distance. also, dealing with the argy bargy of an 800m race would be dangerous for both him and the other runners.

 

[Cloxxki]

i don't know about him becoming a good 800m runner. he looked pretty fat compared to the other 400m runners. he would really need to slim his upper body down to be competitive at that distance. also, dealing with the argy bargy of an 800m race would be dangerous for both him and the other runners.

Good counter points. Although his poor low speed performance may hint that he has a lot of room to improve there, by just getting the miles in. 800m runners put in considerable mileage. Participate in 10k and longer races in the winter.

Another way to look at it, he can get away by being fatter than his competition, because at 10kph under his absolute top speed (wet finger in the air for a 400m runner) he fatiques slower. He's a 200m runner doing the 400m due to his slow start. The switch from 400m to 800m has been done by many, and he might be a great example.
Indeed the sharing lanes with others would be a huge issue. Then, he might pull a maximum 400m type start, and go off the front

 

[lancaster]

my dad likened it to running the 100m with a pole vault pole or on stilts.
it doesn't really matter if at the moment it's quicker or slower, you're just not comparing like with like.
i'm convinced in my own mind that the blades represent a significant advantage but even if they were a disadvantage i don't think they should be allowed.

with regards to 800m, it's possible that if he went out hard (48 sec 1st lap) he'd avoid the bumping in the pack and his better speed endurance would enable him to be a champion at 800m. it would almost certainly raise questions that he doesn't want asked though. (pistorius runs the 400m about 0.5secs quicker than rudisha and has abnormally good speed endurance)

 

[Cloxxki]

Yes, and he has room to slim his body down some with endurance. Perhaps even clean up his upper body technique, although that may be to compensate for being top-heavy (lighter legs).

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Let the other runners use springs under their feet as well.

I'm a lower leg amputee.

 

[Cloxxki]

Let the other runners use springs under their feet as well.

I'm a lower leg amputee.

Both legs? I'd be interested to hear your elaborte take on this subject. Did you ever get to try running?

I'd be interested to have a very stiff brace around my ankles, to render the calfs dead weight. Then add blade springs. Less efficient than Pistorius, but a larger genetic pool to pick runners from.
Key would be to land the springs right under or just behind the center of mass. set legs down extra quick, to have residual vertical velocity upon striking the ground. Having heavy lower legs might work out OK then. Drive knees forward during spring action of the other legs.

 

[patterson_hood]

my dad likened it to running the 100m with a pole vault pole or on stilts.
it doesn't really matter if at the moment it's quicker or slower, you're just not comparing like with like.
i'm convinced in my own mind that the blades represent a significant advantage but even if they were a disadvantage i don't think they should be allowed.

with regards to 800m, it's possible that if he went out hard (48 sec 1st lap) he'd avoid the bumping in the pack and his better speed endurance would enable him to be a champion at 800m. it would almost certainly raise questions that he doesn't want asked though. (pistorius runs the 400m about 0.5secs quicker than rudisha and has abnormally good speed endurance)

He doesn't though does he? Because he expends considerably less energy to maintain his top speed.

 

[simoni]

I'm no scientists but I am a runner. And let me tell you, I could sure do without the calf pains I get after a hard track session or race. And without having to supply them with blood and remove waste products. Avoiding stress fractures (of which I've had one) and achilles and calf injuries (two calf tears and achilles problems too numerous to count) would also be helpful.

I don't know whether Pistorious is at an advantage or not mechanically/energy-wise but I don't think it really matters that much. There's enough in the few points I've stated above to give us doubt that can't really be quantified. Clearly a special bloke and a good story that rightly inspires millions but there's no way whatsoever he should be allowed to compete.

 

[The Hitch]

Of course Pistorius doesnt dope. Hes not a cyclist.

Also he speaks English.

 

[Cloxxki]

Not having lower legs at all, elimated over 90% of all injuries. Pistorius would be able to train harder without having to take it easy. Many runners at that level are close to overstraining their feet or lower legs. And it's not called an achilles for nothing, you know.
If an able bodied finale-level runner would be exempt of lower leg injuries no matter what, that would be a huge impact to the training volume and intensity potential. due to the lower overal weight, upper legs may also be loaded less. this is of course not taking into account any downsides to the blades fitting, limited mobility, lack of feel in the lower legs, etc.

 

[Animal]

I do not understand how a court which specializes in sport could allow such a mockery to take place.

It's like they only understand chemical doping, and do not understand the mechanics of running, or energy storage in tendons. Or weight advantage, and the non-injurability of his carbon supertendons.

I hope this does not set a precedent.

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

I do not understand how a court which specializes in sport could allow such a mockery to take place.

It's like they only understand chemical doping, and do not understand the mechanics of running, or energy storage in tendons. Or weight advantage, and the non-injurability of his carbon supertendons.

I hope this does not set a precedent.

There have already been precedents. One example is a golfer that sued to compete in golf even though he had to ride carts instead of walk like the other golfers.

Public sympathy for the gimps make it impossible for the other athletes to speak freely without fear of being attacked by a media that wants a feel good story.

 

[Cloxxki]

I found a possible reason why longer distances might not suit him. What about total blood volume, dus to missing lower legs? If 10% more blood helps a TdF winner to ride ridiculously fast up a mountain, missing out on 10% might be a bit of a hindrance for a big guy doing more than 400m runs?

 

[ksmith]

There have already been precedents. One example is a golfer that sued to compete in golf even though he had to ride carts instead of walk like the other golfers.

Public sympathy for the gimps make it impossible for the other athletes to speak freely without fear of being attacked by a media that wants a feel good story.

Athletes, well that leaves golf out for a start.

 

[LukeSchmid]

I found a possible reason why longer distances might not suit him. What about total blood volume, dus to missing lower legs? If 10% more blood helps a TdF winner to ride ridiculously fast up a mountain, missing out on 10% might be a bit of a hindrance for a big guy doing more than 400m runs?

But surely his lower blood volume has to supply less cells with oxygen seeing there is no lower legs, and also does not have to travel as far. I know next to nothing about this so have no idea whether this is significant or not.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Both legs? I'd be interested to hear your elaborte take on this subject. Did you ever get to try running?

Only one leg, 4 years ago after a cycling training accident. No running, I can't even imagine running, that would hurt.

My experience is with cycling. I walk obviously but at least have the perspective of someone that uses a lower leg prosthetic in an athletic pursuit. Cycling however is not running, the issues facing athletes in each are going to be different.

In a trans tibial amputee, the forces from the "foot" are no longer transferred via the lower leg skeletal system (i.e. up through the bones), but are transferred through the interface between the hard prosthetic socket (in modern times often made from carbon fibre) and the skin of the remaining stump. There is typically a grippy rubber like liner that covers the stump and squeezes between the socket and the skin (it rolls on like a big condom). The grippy side is against the skin, the outside can move "freely" against the socket.

One's stump does not always fit perfectly inside a socket - the shape and form of your stump changes through the day (as well as over the years), and also changes as you exercise (hydration status changes, pressures on various parts forces fluid out and so on). You take the prosthetic on and off to put on more or remove thin "socks" to increase or reduce the volume inside the socket and try to keep the fit as snug as possible. It's not something you can do during a race and expect to win.

Imagine if your shoes could never expand, contract or move at all when wrapped around your foot. Ever had to release the straps a bit on a long hot day as your foot swells? Tighten them before a sprint?

Small changes in fit create movement of the stump inside the socket, or pressure points and that sucks. It results in sore spots and can open up the skin quite easily. Skin integrity is really important for an amputee as healing takes forever as the stump is always inside a rubber-like liner, which is hot, moist and never sees the air (unless you plan on lots of long days without a leg to walk on, which sucks).

e.g. I had a small ulcer on side of knee that took 2 years to heal. I have another on base of my stump that's been there 8 weeks, just because one day the fit wasn't so great.

I am very impressed by amputees that can run as the forces being transmitted through the skin are so much higher than in cycling. I suspect the elastic nature of the running blades used would really assist reduce the shearing forces imparted on the stump's skin, at least if compared to attempting to run on a standard prosthetic "foot".

I can walk at a reasonable rate but there is no way I can start a light trot or jog with my regular "foot". The only way to sensibly run would be a blade type system if you ask me. And my regular "foot" alone cost $13,000, so I'm not planning on pushing it too hard if I can help it.

While an amputee track runner is running a short event, I would expect they still need to do quite a substantial volume of running training in order to develop the aerobic engine required. An event like the 400m is akin to the kilo TT in cycling, with significant contributions from each of the primary energy systems in our bodies.

Another factor is the difference between those that "acquired" the missing leg(s) early in life versus those that are more recent. The ones that have always been than way adapt and will have an advantage in that respect. Recent amputees have to learn stuff over again.

As for cycling, there is no mechanical advantage like you get from an elastic running blade. The socket is just directly attached to the pedal via a straight cylindrical pylon, with a regular cycling pedal & cleat arrangement.

I am a little unique I suspect as I have years of power meter data from before and since my amputation. I have been able to equal or better my pre-amputation W/kg for durations of 4-minutes and longer. I have lost 200-250W off my sprint though, and that affects my shorter duration power bests.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I'm no scientists but I am a runner. And let me tell you, I could sure do without the calf pains I get after a hard track session or race. And without having to supply them with blood and remove waste products. Avoiding stress fractures (of which I've had one) and achilles and calf injuries (two calf tears and achilles problems too numerous to count) would also be helpful.

I don't know whether Pistorious is at an advantage or not mechanically/energy-wise but I don't think it really matters that much. There's enough in the few points I've stated above to give us doubt that can't really be quantified. Clearly a special bloke and a good story that rightly inspires millions but there's no way whatsoever he should be allowed to compete.

It might come as a surprise to you to learn that despite not having one lower limb, I can certainly experience pain and other sensations from the missing limb. It's a not uncommon phenomenon experienced by amputees known as phantom pain or phantom sensations. It's really quite strange. In fact as I type this now, I can feel "pins and needles" on the sole of my non existent foot.

The funniest are the itches you can get but there is nothing to scratch!

One day when riding I could feel an imaginary spider crawling up my non existing leg. So I flicked it off with an imaginary stick.


I would take sore calves, achilles problems and stress fractures any day. They can be relieved by rest, at worst some surgical intervention. My leg will never grow back.

Your argument about less blood required and removal of waste product is borne of ignorance. There is less blood because there is less body.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Not having lower legs at all, elimated over 90% of all injuries. Pistorius would be able to train harder without having to take it easy.

Hmmm, I'm not so sure. Wearing prosthetics and transferring the forces through the skin is no "walk in the park".

I'm of the opinion only (no evidence I'm afraid) that he may in fact be more limited in the volume of work he can do as a result of the issues faced in using prosthetics and the large forces that running would transmit via the stump's skin.

 

[lancaster]

He doesn't though does he? Because he expends considerably less energy to maintain his top speed.

that was my (poorly worded) point

he is weirdly good at maintaining his speed (at the end of the 400, when compared to able bodied athletes, which in my opinion is a result of a mechanical advantage.)

 

[boomcie]

I'm among those people that think it's a mockery that this guy is allowed to run at the regular worlds. But hey that's just me. The advantage he gains from those prostheses are as unfair as an advantage one might gain from let's say steroids.

I really don't get why society is so hung up on pitiful and irrational compensation.

I'm honestly sorry for Pistorius, but losing his legs doesn't warrant him using extracorporeal tools in a competition full of able bodied men. That sort of technology has no place in non-motorized sports. Just look at what happened to the body suits in swimming (thank god).

Sometimes malevolent tendencies in society are disguised as benevolent attitudes. I honestly have no idea why dyslectic people get more time to complete an exam, while unintelligent people are not allowed one second of extra time. This is beyond me.

Every now and then people get a dubious idea of what is fair, but these pity-fueled misguidances are unfair in so many ways. Don’t even get me started. Desperately trying to create equality in sports or society will often result more disparity. That’s just the world we live in. Positive discrimination is seldom the answer.

I know some people will probably respond badly to this (especially the dyslectic part), but I can’t help feeling this way.

 

[Animal]

Dyslexic?

Characters added to satisfy forum software.

 

[boomcie]

Dyslexic?

I believe both are correct, although dyslexic seems more common.