Oscar Pistorius

[Briant_Gumble]

Pure Darwinian.

Survival of the fittest? The dumbest die first? Not sure what you mean?

 

[Cyivel]

^^ Didn't realise it was still that bad, I thought it had cleaned up a bit the list of deaths under 50 since the 80's would be horrendous.

Andrew "test" Martin died of a head trauma related condition similar to what Benoit was thought to have developed although in that case he didn't take his family down with him.

It probably has got a bit better, they have improved in regards to doing stupid things to the head, plus people have to sit out if they have a concussion and whilst there are some people who are still obviously taking steroids/HGH there are a few more realistic physiques than in the past, not sure how much of an issue pain pills still are.

 

[jamesmasters]

On a side note, isn't this another example of how the top athletes never get caught by tests, only by being physically caught with drugs or by someone breaking the omerta? He must have been tested hundreds of times. All tests say he's clean, but the moment someone searches his house, they find bagfuls of steroids there.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

It probably has got a bit better, they have improved in regards to doing stupid things to the head, plus people have to sit out if they have a concussion and whilst there are some people who are still obviously taking steroids/HGH there are a few more realistic physiques than in the past, not sure how much of an issue pain pills still are.

The problem is that most of the top contenders are juicing. Even Rey Misterio has been busted twice for roids and he is hardly a big man.

Part of the problem is Vince McMahon's 'big man' fetish.

It won't get better because HHH is one of the biggest juicers and is of course McMahon's son in law.

The move towards less obviously gassed was I think in part because Linda McMahon was running for office and when you have people looking like freaks it tends to draw negative attention.

NB - CM Punk who is a 'normal' size wrestler lost to the gassed up Rock last night again, and they reckon that Wrestlemania will be a gassed up Rock and a gassed up Cena. So back to how they were.

 

[TheGame]

The other parallel is Chris Benoit who was on a cocktail of steroids when he murdered his wife and son.

It's not quite as simple as that. Chris had been diagnosed with, well basically, dementia, shortly before. So while there is no doubt he had a fair cocktail of steroids in his system, he was also rapidly degenerating as far as mentality went. Similar to early Alzheimer's.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Which I noted. However, Benoit is the only sportsman I can think of suffering from a brain injury who has killed anyone.

I do think the WWE prefers the brain injury line to be used because it means that they can avoid the steroid issue.

The WWE can easily window-dress policy by saying 'no more chair shots' - watch the WWE and chairshots, piledrivers etc are very very rarely seen these days.

Steroids - introduce a wellness policy and pop Randy Orton, while the top stars continue to juice.

 

[Cyivel]

The problem is that most of the top contenders are juicing. Even Rey Misterio has been busted twice for roids and he is hardly a big man.

Part of the problem is Vince McMahon's 'big man' fetish.

It won't get better because HHH is one of the biggest juicers and is of course McMahon's son in law.

The move towards less obviously gassed was I think in part because Linda McMahon was running for office and when you have people looking like freaks it tends to draw negative attention.

NB - CM Punk who is a 'normal' size wrestler lost to the gassed up Rock last night again, and they reckon that Wrestlemania will be a gassed up Rock and a gassed up Cena. So back to how they were.

I wouldn't disagree with any of that really, where I think it is improved in regard to drugs is that there are less people on steroids (mainly the guys who are lower down the pecking order) than before, not that the culture at the top has changed I mean when you look at Ryback and the fact The Rock has looked like he could explode at any moment then clearly there is still an issue.

Also like you said given Linda has been running for office on and off for the last few years and isn't going to again (I assume they don't want to lose another $100m or whatever it was) it will be interesting to see if the % of people obviously on something goes up again.

 

[taiwan]

There is letsrun forums for distance runners and track. You might find the forums way open and be put off by the funny stuff but if you read the threads some of the posts are serious with good info.

Problems with letsrun are it's all distance stuff they talk about, also chock full of uninteresting college/training stuff as well as racist or political propaganda and other troll threads.

 

[sittingbison]

On a side note, isn't this another example of how the top athletes never get caught by tests, only by being physically caught with drugs or by someone breaking the omerta? He must have been tested hundreds of times. All tests say he's clean, but the moment someone searches his house, they find bagfuls of steroids there.

Thats an excellent point jamesmasters, all those border inspections like Voet and Rumsas, Mike finding the box of steroids in Lances Girona house, Italian police raiding hotels etc. even Lance admitting to the doctors in the hospital.

 

[alitogata]

What's your point? Pistorius shouldn't be given a hard sentence because it won't magically solve all the worlds problems?

My point it that as long this doping system keep on working this way nothing will change. There will always be another Pistorius.

 

[hrotha]

My point it that as long this doping system keep on working this way nothing will change. There will always be another Pistorius.

I think murder is a wee bit above what your run-of-the-mill doper does.

 

[rata de sentina]

Pure Darwinian.

Not really, did they breed first?

 

[BroDeal]

Pistorius' has a roommate that is an MMA fighter. How long before he blames the steroids in his house on the fighter?

 

[alitogata]

I think murder is a wee bit above what your run-of-the-mill doper does.

I count as murders all the deaths of all these famous or no famous athletes that died in young age from doping side affects too. For me it's some how the same.

The only thing that alters these deaths from the one that Pistorius did, is that these are indirect and with a no detectable specific person as the killer. But again these are murders because they kill people

Who killed Florence Joyner -Griffith for example? Doping industry and the totally immoral people that runs this industry.

In Pistorius case we get angry because we see these side effects work directly and involve other people as well. But again if in the place of this girl was Pistorius himself dying suddenly in his mid twenties, (something probable because we have heard of athletes dying this way, football players, cyclists etc.), wouldn't be someone responsible for his death? ( I don't defend now Pistorius).

Don't get confused with the ways, if there is a gun or not. Look the final result. Young people dying because the doping industry and all those who are involved with it, gain huge amount of money.

And something else. In the end of the day, the bigger looser are sports in general which don't produce anything positive at all. The only product are business, death, immorality, troubled young people, bad press, devastated families and so on.. ( and add what I missed..the whole thing sucks ).

 

[alitogata]

About the "he/she did his/her choices":

Mind that most of athletes are very young in age people who don't have yet build a strong moral background and don't have the maturity to judge the possible consequences of their decisions

Most of them get in any team in a very young age, usually in their early twenties, ( sometimes younger, as the gymnastics athletes f.e) and for them doping is the only way to get what the sports industry promises to them. Money, fame, success, medals etc etc etc.

Will you call these persons perpetrators? I call all this young people victims.

Think what all these who accused LA for doping claimed. They said "I got doped because all the other were doped and that was the norm".
Totally wrong as an argument but it shows which is the reasoning that this industry cultivates.

Do you really think that every "Pistorius" like person is doped because he/she wants to kill somebody or them selves?
No they are getting doped because they want what the sports industry promises, and because they are convinced that there are no alternatives.

In the end of the day, someone gains everything and then loose them suddenly, someone dies, no matter how.. but the industry itself never looses its profits.

That is the reason I asked if anything will change if Pistorius and any other Pistorius will get sentenced with the highest penalty.

If we want to see something changing in all these, we have to turn our backs and get rid of this system. Otherwise sooner or later will hear another case like Pistorius' another like Lance Armstrong's, another like Pantani's, another Marion Jones, Griffith Joyner etc. This will go on in perpetuity.

 

[blackcat]

Pure Darwinian.

The Wrestler
Darren Aronofsky

 

[Cerberus]

I count as murders all the deaths of all these famous or no famous athletes that died in young age from doping side affects too. For me it's some how the same.

The only thing that alters these deaths from the one that Pistorius did, is that these are indirect and with a no detectable specific person as the killer. But again these are murders because they kill people

No the only differences between these deaths and the one that Pistorius did is that the "victims" had a choice and that the "victims" of doping usually don't die, as opposed to the victims of gunshots to the head who usually die. Fairly large differences when you think about it.

Who killed Florence Joyner -Griffith for example? Doping industry and the totally immoral people that runs this industry.

Assuming her death was doping related then herself, other people might share part of the responsibility, but she wasn't held down and forcedly ingested with steroids.

In Pistorius case we get angry because we see these side effects work directly and involve other people as well.

Ehm no, "we" get angry because someone mada deliberate choice to kill another person, not a choice which as a possible, but unlikely side effect killed a person who could have said no.

But again if in the place of this girl was Pistorius himself dying suddenly in his mid twenties, (something probable because we have heard of athletes dying this way, football players, cyclists etc.), wouldn't be someone responsible for his death? ( I don't defend now Pistorius).

Yes you do defends Pistorius, you do everything possible to paint him as a victim of the evil doping industry, not as a murderer.

Don't get confused with the ways, if there is a gun or not. Look the final result. Young people dying because the doping industry and all those who are involved with it, gain huge amount of money.

If we look at the final result then forget about doping, that's strictly small fries. Prosecute Coca Cola, McDonald, Philip Morris and any producer of televisions for genocide. Whatever health damage doping does it's way smaller, perhaps even on an individual basis than smoking, significant obesity and a non-active lifestyle. There's no end to what can be considered murder if you remove the key elements of intent and clear causal link.

 

[blackcat]

With steroid use, lots of alcohol and some jealousy, gun in hand? Potent mixture! I've said it before, but of course it doesn't have to be relevant to this case: If you've got a hammer in your hand I find that a lot of things start to look like a nail.

Maslow's law of instrument.

 

[D-Queued]

Pistorius' has a roommate that is an MMA fighter. How long before he blames the steroids in his house on the fighter?

MMA is clean.

My guess is that he states that the steroids were hers.

Dave.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

The Rock has looked like he could explode at any moment.

Lol, that's how I'd describe it, dude looks extremely unhealthy.

 

[alitogata]

No the only differences between these deaths and the one that Pistorius did is that the "victims" had a choice and that the "victims" of doping usually don't die, as opposed to the victims of gunshots to the head who usually die. Fairly large differences when you think about it.

All victims don't have choices that's why they are victims. Every "Pistorius" is a victim because if he/she wasn't you wouldn't know his/her name. They are taking drugs to become rich and famous, because sports and doping industry say them to do so. Pistorius got mad and killed his girlfriend, others get mad and kill themselves by over using doping drugs. Do you forget Pantani? Never proved as a doper, [ but anyway he competed with Lance Armstrong which proved to be over-doped ( new word this!! )], died from cocaine over dose. Both stuff came from his implication with a sport.
Could he do differently? Yes... but then he wouldn't be a professional cyclist and nobody would know him now. He would keep on living in a small Italian village.

But I'm sure that when Pantani decided to get involved with sports, he had something different in his mind than this.

Assuming her death was doping related then herself, other people might share part of the responsibility, but she wasn't held down and forcedly ingested with steroids.

Same here. She didn't involved in sports having in mind that she will die. I'm sure she had other "morally superior" things in her mind.

Ehm no, "we" get angry because someone mada deliberate choice to kill another person, not a choice which as a possible, but unlikely side effect killed a person who could have said no.

For me, in such cases, the one thing brings the other. Roid rage is not an unlike side effect. It is very possible that's why the investigators for this murder asked Pistorius' blood tests. So they know that this "side-effect" exists.
And those who prescribed the drugs to Pistorius knew this. Pistorius himself knew this, but the sports reasoning literally demands from athletes to take such kind of stuff, because equates first, second, third places and new time records etc. with success, but participation only (to a race) as failure.

Yes you do defends Pistorius, you do everything possible to paint him as a victim of the evil doping industry, not as a murderer.

I don't say that he isn't a murderer, but I prefer to see the "whole forest than a single tree" if you get my point. And this point is that as long there is a whole system advancing doping and demanding from people certain performances, everything is possible.

If we look at the final result then forget about doping, that's strictly small fries. Prosecute Coca Cola, McDonald, Philip Morris and any producer of televisions for genocide. Whatever health damage doping does it's way smaller, perhaps even on an individual basis than smoking, significant obesity and a non-active lifestyle. There's no end to what can be considered murder if you remove the key elements of intent and clear causal link.

Do we want to live in a better world or our moral value system is so altered? Coca Cola, Mc Donald and Phillip Morris, television and movie industries, drugs and dopes are not something that always existed so these are not something that we shall take as given.

Would it be possible for every Pistorius of this planet, be a murderer without the existence of specific factors?
When you want to solve a problem you don't stop symptoms, you debate about the causes.

I don't really care if Pistorius will go to jail for the rest of his life, but is each and every "Pistorius" the real cause of each and every failure like this, or it is time to think which are the real causes?

I know that what I'm saying it sounds a little bit Utopian because our culture has the tendency to count many things as given. But I want to believe that we can do better. Don't you think?

 

[Briant_Gumble]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21502541

Looks like Pistorius defence team are mounting a defense that would make Tim Herman proud.

Claiming that he was randomly shooting at the bathroom door.

Also using the phrase "not even murder" that on the page looks like it was said in the tone of "not even shoplifting".

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21502541

Looks like Pistorius defence team are mounting a defense that would make Tim Herman proud.

Claiming that he was randomly shooting at the bathroom door.

Also using the phrase "not even murder" that on the page looks like it was said in the tone of "not even shoplifting".

Or

'It's not really cheating if everyone is doing it'

 

[hrotha]

Lol at alitogata's "Aren't we all victims of society? When you get to the bottom of it, is murder any worse than littering?" speech.

 

[wirral]

Lol at alitogata's "Aren't we all victims of society? When you get to the bottom of it, is murder any worse than littering?" speech.

Indeed, thus proving there is no thread that is untrollable for him/her.