SpartacusRox said:
Now while I don't believe in Angles and Demons, there seems to be a difference between a relative greater good versus a relative greater evil. In your analysis you have confused which is which.
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Now while I don't believe in Angles and Demons, there seems to be a difference between a relative greater good versus a relative greater evil. In your analysis you have confused which is which.
Prob w/Papp
One of my problems w/ Papp is that he was doped beyond when he raced yet people still say "He made a mistake" when he was using. WTF!!!! A mistake is being in the wrong gear for a sprint, or wearing the wrong gear for the conditions. THOSE are mistakes, doping is a well thought out plan to steal,not once, not twice but several times.That is not the definition of a mistake. And those pic's of him over at the cycling site with a "p" in the title, you know all those shot's of him smiling away and his infamous agony of defeat pose at losing the sprint,all attempts to make him look like just another mis-guided good guy who "made a mistake".Say what you gotta say then GO AWAY!!! Lifetime ban from anything to do with cycling.
One of my problems w/ Papp is that he was doped beyond when he raced yet people still say "He made a mistake" when he was using. WTF!!!! A mistake is being in the wrong gear for a sprint, or wearing the wrong gear for the conditions. THOSE are mistakes, doping is a well thought out plan to steal,not once, not twice but several times.That is not the definition of a mistake. And those pic's of him over at the cycling site with a "p" in the title, you know all those shot's of him smiling away and his infamous agony of defeat pose at losing the sprint,all attempts to make him look like just another mis-guided good guy who "made a mistake".Say what you gotta say then GO AWAY!!! Lifetime ban from anything to do with cycling.
Cranky McSlik said:
So we should never want convicted mafia criminals to start denouncing their colleagues, which thus potentially saves the careers and lives of others?
Former criminals are often the best (at times the only effective) source for bringing other criminals to justice. This is why your analysis, like the one who started this thead, is utterly moronic. Anything that contributes to breaking the doping culture in cycling should be welcomed, however distasteful we may find some of the methods.
way to go Sparty. You are really upset about all these athletes getting caught. You know someone on the list?
What about kohl when he blew the whistle on his dealing?
What about LA dealing to his teammates, bet he charged for it as well and more than the going rate too i bet?
I have yet to see J Papp as a big headed media ***** on here. His motives for telling the truth after getting caught are understandable. I don't have a problem with that. If it helps catch others doping and dealing great.
This thread is a failed tactic to deviate from what is important here and it also a personal attack on a CN forum member.
There may be reasons for Papp's so called 'attitude' to what he may appear to some to be doing. it may be he is trying to draw out some others by his actions, who knows, we dont from reading the news, so wind you neck in and wait till we know all the facts and then cast your judgement.
What about kohl when he blew the whistle on his dealing?
What about LA dealing to his teammates, bet he charged for it as well and more than the going rate too i bet?
I have yet to see J Papp as a big headed media ***** on here. His motives for telling the truth after getting caught are understandable. I don't have a problem with that. If it helps catch others doping and dealing great.
This thread is a failed tactic to deviate from what is important here and it also a personal attack on a CN forum member.
There may be reasons for Papp's so called 'attitude' to what he may appear to some to be doing. it may be he is trying to draw out some others by his actions, who knows, we dont from reading the news, so wind you neck in and wait till we know all the facts and then cast your judgement.
forty four said:why would we have to respect that? who raised you people my god.
you can come out and come clean about your own actions i have no issue with that and can respect that. coming out and ratting on the people you worked together with to get to where you got is pathetic on the highest level and is done to lesson the penalties for the rat. dont forget landis came out only after blackmail attempts to get in the toc failed he is a scumbag whos only concern is self interest same as the one you hate no difference.
Mach Schnell said:
That's really not how the Khmer Rouge year zero 'thing' worked at all.
The 'thing' was not 'forget the past, lets all move forward', it was 'I think you might possibly be guilty, or related to somebody guilty, or sympathise with them, or have enough critical faculties to form an opinion one way or the other, or have an education, or aspirations, so we'll just brutally torture you for months then murder you and your whole family, and your neighbours".
It was a truly horrific regime, which resulted in the death (by murder or famine) of nearly a third of the population, and to think it occurred in my lifetime is hard to swallow.
I will never in my life forget walking around the "Killing Fields" near Phnomh Penh. The simple detail of a synthetic shirt collar with a paisley pattern, poking through the earth footpath, looking like so much third world trash, until you see the bones beside it, and realise that they are everywhere around you.
Enough of the history lesson, it's totally OT, I just get really ANGRY at stupid analogies that trivialise such a shameful episode of human history. Seeing such an analogy from someone calling themselves "Mach Schnell" really made me blow my top.
veloracer said:
Hey Brubaker, I hate to burst your bubble but the chances of Papp doing any hard time is slim to absolutely zero, even if he didn't cooperate.
Which he is.
Just a small point but it has not been made yet.
Who makes the best gamekeepers? Poachers
Who runs AA? Alchoholics.
Who runs NA? Drug addicts
Do you see where I am going with this? If you want to stop something you ask the people who have first hand knowledge. Heck even prisoners are used to try and keep youngsters from offending.
Good on you Joe and Floyd!
Who makes the best gamekeepers? Poachers
Who runs AA? Alchoholics.
Who runs NA? Drug addicts
Do you see where I am going with this? If you want to stop something you ask the people who have first hand knowledge. Heck even prisoners are used to try and keep youngsters from offending.
Good on you Joe and Floyd!
Ferminal said:
I don't think people get upset so much because he speaks out about it, but rather because he seems to do so in a nonchalant tone of righteousness. He comes off a bit like he is on the crusader soapbox with his whole website and blog and generally his self advertised public presence. It just feels a bit underhanded.
Yes he made a mistake and should be given a second chance, but a second chance as an anti-doping crusader? That is tough to swallow. It would be a lot easier to support a former doper as an anti-doping crusader when said doper comes forward on the crusader bandwagon before he gets caught, not after.
offbyone said:
There seems to be so many qualifiers for the position of anti-doping saint that I'm having trouble following the logic as to how these qualifications have been put in place.
It can't be someone like Dicke Pound, because he's a loudmouth yahoo with an axe to grind.
It can't be someone like Landis because he's a liar who is only exposing doping in cycling because his attempts at blackmail went nowhere.
It can't be Papp because he should have come out before getting busted, not after.
So, it should be someone who has never gotten caught, decides to turn himself in without exposing the organized doping program he may have been a part of, takes his suspension "like a man" (whatever that means) and then goes away.
Yes, this is exactly the track pro cycling should take in order to clean this mess up. That's the ticket.
offbyone said:
You've got that backwards, perhaps the only second chance he should get in cycling is as an anti-doping crusader. In fact what if that was a prerequisite for returning to pro cycling after serving a 2 year ban? Make it 2 if you tell the whole truth with names but a life time ban if you keep quiet.
Papp - Me smells self-promotion
When I read (but no longer do so) Joe Papp's tweets and other statements to press, they sound genuinely self serving.
It is the right thing to do to come clean and make amends for past failures. But Papp (very much like Landis) seems fixated on seeing others fess up too. All you can control in life is your OWN actions. In the attempt to take responsibility for our actions, mixing it with "others have done it too and need to admit it", only serves to confuse one's OWN responsibility and that of OTHERS. Joe and Floyd - focus on your self - let others face their own personal and public judgements.
When I read (but no longer do so) Joe Papp's tweets and other statements to press, they sound genuinely self serving.
It is the right thing to do to come clean and make amends for past failures. But Papp (very much like Landis) seems fixated on seeing others fess up too. All you can control in life is your OWN actions. In the attempt to take responsibility for our actions, mixing it with "others have done it too and need to admit it", only serves to confuse one's OWN responsibility and that of OTHERS. Joe and Floyd - focus on your self - let others face their own personal and public judgements.
It seams a few peeps cant get to grip with a certain bit of logic.
As in the saying about racing " Youve got to be in it to win it", If your not doping and refuse to bow to any presure to dope the likly hood of you having much info about doping is rather slim,especialy anything usefull in a criminal enquiry.
To think otherwise is to sugest criminals are in the habit of broadcasting there misdameaners to all any sundry..there not.
Fact of life, just as with undercover law agents, they have to "get there hands dirty" to get the info.
With athletes thats a rather a tall order...any one ever heard of a world class athlete being a law enforcement officer in his real job and riding the TDF as part of his cover?
...no...I thought not.
As in the saying about racing " Youve got to be in it to win it", If your not doping and refuse to bow to any presure to dope the likly hood of you having much info about doping is rather slim,especialy anything usefull in a criminal enquiry.
To think otherwise is to sugest criminals are in the habit of broadcasting there misdameaners to all any sundry..there not.
Fact of life, just as with undercover law agents, they have to "get there hands dirty" to get the info.
With athletes thats a rather a tall order...any one ever heard of a world class athlete being a law enforcement officer in his real job and riding the TDF as part of his cover?
...no...I thought not.
Mellow Velo said:
Perhaps this phrase is best left for days when a sicilian doesnt just win a gt
Master50 said:
Well said. Who is more guilty, the gun user or the gun dealer? The dealer may have sold the gun but he sure did not do the shooting. The key phrase I believe you use is "consenting relationship". Both parties involved are benefitting in their own minds one way or the other.
Hmmmmm said:
Isn't this argument irrelevant in this case because joe was both the drug user and drug dealer.
offbyone said:
since when did the name PEDs fall to the term 'drug', seems it get used when posters don't like the dealer (Papp) or user (Landis)!
Benotti69 said:
It always has been. The cycling industry refers to it as dope and dopers. If you think dope dealer and doper is a nicer word than drug dealer and drug user than feel free to use those.
offbyone said:
I'd accept that argument if he weren't bringing those who broke the rules to task.
That he may have an "agenda" to persue (who doesn't), becomes entirely secondary to the truth. Where the "truth" isn't something handed down from the Almighty, but based on what has actually taken place rationally and objectively according to the facts.
offbyone said:
yep i dont equate someone taking heroin in the same manner as epo, and i personally prefer the term PED, but it seemed PED had become the standard on here till the recent threads about Joseph Papp being a 'drug dealer' as posters it appeared wanted to paint him as someone destroying the life's of kids on smack, crack etc..
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