Paul Kimmage questioning Roman ?

[martinvickers]

It might be a typo, but can you explain what the blue is?

Not abnormal no, but a strange thing for a clean rider to do.

The question remains why he would do it, not why not.
But to answer it, if you are clean and just beaten by someone you felt cheated you, would you be sending congrats.

s/o = someone

Beaten? Did you really just type that?

He was riding in the same team as him - K was the 'protected rider'. That's the idea of pro cycling, isn't it? Teams...working for the leader...

And still this basic assumption that not only does Nico share your views and knowledge, he MUST share your (or kimmage's, whatever) views, he's obliged to, and anything else is lies. No possibility that he disagrees genuinely, or doesn't have your knowledge, or you're just wrong on some issue?

After all, why shouldn't Nico be right behind Kimmage's every word, even clairvoyently. It's not like Kimmage has repeatedly attacked his family members since he was a child, is it? It's not like he's declared how much he despises the boy's father, is it?

Because you know, blood, even EPOless blood, is thicker than water, and people tend to react badly to their Dad being attacked, even when it's justified. Indeed, that's how this crap turns into family feuds in the first place. Or is Nico not allowed to be a son, either, unless OKed by Paul?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

And how is Nico supposed to know whether it's laudable or not? As I understand his job description is cyclist. Not Kimmage-Saxo liason, not police investigator, not WADAtester, not EPO archivist, not chaplin or father confessor.

Cyclist.

Which is fine and correct.

But Kimmage pointed to an article, maybe Nico did not know, maybe he will address it, maybe he will ignore it.
Now he does know. Has he said anything?

Maybe Nico is not entirely up to speed with the details of every accusation in the peleton, maybe. Maybe he thinks K's clean, or clean now. He may well be wrong, who knows, but he could still well think it.

After all, if Paul can take drugs, and then become, well, Paul Kimmage, presumably K can be born anew too.

I still don't write understand though why nico is supposed to hold off congratulating a team mate because Paul Kimmage has doubts, doubts unexpressed, i might add until after Nico tweeted. Is Nico now expected to demonstrate clairevoyance?

Should he phone Paul the night before a race for clearance on who's 'laudable'? Could Paul send him a pdf of the riders' doping palmeres? Would it be safer simply to tweet 'Kimmage approved' statements?

No. Nonsense.

Paul took a swing at his enemy's son. Simple as. It was petty, vindictive, it reflects badly on him, and frankly far, far worse, the childishness of the whole thing distracts from actually ACHIEVING something. It just reinforces the stupid bloody Irish family feud storyline, and it lets the real baddies in this country, McQuaid, roche Sr, hide. "that Kimmage, it's just a personal vendetta, etc, etc..."

Paul has earned the right to make a few errors. He suffered enough, and fought hard enough. But this was an error, and it belittles him. He ought to be better than this; but it is in danger of becoming a pattern. Someone who cares about him and who he trusts should, in all seriousness, tell him to knock it off, and start being constructive again.

More and more, I fear I'm relying on David Walsh to do the real work, and we know how his stock has dropped here. I get no pleasure watching someone like Paul start to become a freakshow. None at all.

Sounds like you need a hug.

 

[martinvickers]

Freakshow', a tweet, dont blow it out of proportion FFS!

Did you read the sticky bottle meltdown?

I'm telling you now, believe it or not as you please, but his 'letting off' on others this last weekend or so undermined his perfectly correct attack on the McQuaid renomination.

So, you know, great, let's all lionize Paul while he makes it harder for himself to get a job, or harder for himself to achieve something with the sport, or just harder for himself to be taken seriously. Because we all get to feel good at the rebel. Great. Productive. Fantastic job, guys.

 

[gooner]

Freakshow', a tweet, dont blow it out of proportion FFS!

Yet you, Kimmage and others are the ones blowing Roche's tweet out of proportion. He tweeted that in the context of congratulating a teammate who he rode alongside in his big win. But of course Kimmage had to bring Roche and Roche alone with no other Saxo riders involved in to it and twist it that it was a supporting message of a Ferrari client. When Roche tweeted that, he didn't intend for it to be interpreted they way it did. It was just Kimmage adding arms and legs on to it so then to have a go at Roche as a result.

And would you, Kimmage and others write a column in Roche's position questioning Kreuziger's past links to Ferrari while at the same time being a current teammate?

Of course you would though and alienate yourself in the team you just joined. His columns are a diary for his racing experiences and not to specifically satisfy Paul Kimmage needs irrespective of whatever he says about it.

Kreuziger has to answer for his past and not Roche who wasn't even at Liquigas when all this happened.

 

[martinvickers]

Which is fine and correct.

But Kimmage pointed to an article, maybe Nico did not know, maybe he will address it, maybe he will ignore it.
Now he does know. Has he said anything?



Sounds like you need a hug.

Hands off, Dr. That's against your oath

 

[Dr. Maserati]

s/o = someone

Beaten? Did you really just type that?

He was riding in the same team as him - K was the 'protected rider'. That's the idea of pro cycling, isn't it? Teams...working for the leader...

Yes beaten.

Your first competitor as a pro is your team mates to get on the best racing program and to get the the protected rider spot.

And still this basic assumption that not only does Nico share your views and knowledge, he MUST share your (or kimmage's, whatever) views, he's obliged to, and anything else is lies. No possibility that he disagrees genuinely, or doesn't have your knowledge, or you're just wrong on some issue?

You are the one assuming - Nico has not responded, we don't know what he knows but if he checks his tweets he will have info.

Which is all Kimmage asked, saying it could make a nice article.
You're the one assuming its content.

After all, why shouldn't Nico be right behind Kimmage's every word, even clairvoyently. It's not like Kimmage has repeatedly attacked his family members since he was a child, is it? It's not like he's declared how much he despises the boy's father, is it?

Because you know, blood, even EPOless blood, is thicker than water, and people tend to react badly to their Dad being attacked, even when it's justified. Indeed, that's how this crap turns into family feuds in the first place. Or is Nico not allowed to be a son, either, unless OKed by Paul?

No idea what this part is about.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Yet you, Kimmage and others are the ones blowing Roche's tweet out of proportion. He tweeted that in the context of congratulating a teammate who he rode alongside in his big win. But of course Kimmage had to bring Roche and Roche alone with no other Saxo riders involved in to it and twist it that it was a supporting message of a Ferrari client. When Roche tweeted that, he didn't intend for it to be interpreted they way it did. It was just Kimmage adding arms and legs on to it so then to have a go at Roche as a result.

Interpret it what way??

And would you, Kimmage and others write a column in Roche's position questioning Kreuziger's past links to Ferrari while at the same time being a current teammate?

Good question.
If I was a clean rider I might not join Riis in the first place.
But assuming that there is clean & dirty side to the team and I saw a rider I had my suspicions about win, no I would not go along with the public tweet.

If that got me alienated from some, they would know (which they already should) that i am not going to condone doping. If they have a problem with that then I would wear that as a badge of honor.

Of course you would though and alienate yourself in the team you just joined. His columns are a diary for his racing experiences and not to specifically satisfy Paul Kimmage needs irrespective of whatever he says about it.

Kreuziger has to answer for his past and not Roche who wasn't even at Liquigas when all this happened.

Kreuziger has to answer for his past, Roche should answer why he congratulated a Ferrari client.

 

[martinvickers]

Yes beaten.

Your first competitor as a pro is your team mates to get on the best racing program and to get the the protected rider spot.

Nico knew he wasn't No. 1 as soon as he joined Saxo .I wasn't thrilled he joined them I can tell you. But the idea he was going there as anything other than superdom is palpable nonsense.

You are the one assuming - Nico has not responded, we don't know what he knows but if he checks his tweets he will have info.

Which is all Kimmage asked, saying it could make a nice article.
You're the one assuming its content.

This is disingenuous in the extreme, Dr. And you know it.

Let's not waste all our time playing silly beggers. If you want to play dumb over the obvious stuff, then, well, hey, it's your credibility, you can do what you like with it, and we can just call a halt to any meaningful discussion, It's all gravy.

 

[martinvickers]

Interpret it what way??


Good question.
If I was a clean rider I might not join Riis in the first place.
But assuming that there is clean & dirty side to the team and I saw a rider I had my suspicions about win, no I would not go along with the public tweet.

If that got me alienated from some, they would know (which they already should) that i am not going to condone doping. If they have a problem with that then I would wear that as a badge of honor.

It's easy to take a stand when you're sitting at a desk, rather less so on the road. Bassons' found that out.

so many people eager to be martyrs. so few of them with the ability ever to get the chance to be.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Nico knew he wasn't No. 1 as soon as he joined Saxo .I wasn't thrilled he joined them I can tell you. But the idea he was going there as anything other than superdom is palpable nonsense.

Not for GTs but he certainly would be hoping for top billing for races like Amstel.

This is disingenuous in the extreme, Dr. And you know it.

Let's not waste all our time playing silly beggers. If you want to play dumb over the obvious stuff, then, well, hey, it's your credibility, you can do what you like with it, and we can just call a halt to any meaningful discussion, It's all gravy.

You have some cheek calling me disingenuous. You are the one claiming it is some set of feud and getting all emotional about it.

Here is the exact Kimmage tweet.
Hey @nicholasroche would you mind asking Roman about this please? It would make a good column podiumcafe.com/2012/10/12349

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It's easy to take a stand when you're sitting at a desk, rather less so on the road. Bassons' found that out.

so many people eager to be martyrs. so few of them with the ability ever to get the chance to be.

It is, and I appreciate that it is.

However, either Roche is believing that cycling is clean, which would mean that the dopers are in the minority and he can join any team.
Or as you appear to put forth that cycling is in the same old state as Bassons time (15 year ago) and omertà is still in place and McQuaid who Nico supports is completely full of it.

Which is it?

 

[martinvickers]

You have some cheek calling me disingenuous. You are the one claiming it is some set of feud and getting all emotional about it.

Here is the exact Kimmage tweet.
Hey @nicholasroche would you mind asking Roman about this please? It would make a good column podiumcafe.com/2012/10/12349

Funny enough 24 hours earlier....

@PaulKimmage 13 Apr
Raced and loved both Kelly and Roche. Don't care if I never speak to them again. Hope to speak to @TTworldchamp soon. Respect.

Yep, that's gonna warm Nico to Paul. Sure thing.

 

[martinvickers]

It is, and I appreciate that it is.

However, either Roche is believing that cycling is clean, which would mean that the dopers are in the minority and he can join any team.
Or as you appear to put forth that cycling is in the same old state as Bassons time (15 year ago) and omertà is still in place and McQuaid who Nico supports is completely full of it.

Which is it?

False dichotomy.

Let us take, for example, the Garmin team, and assume for the purposes of a thought experiment that they are as JV claims they are.

They could be, now, as clean as a penny whistle. But if some new rider joins, lets say, and immediately lets the former dopers know his disdain for them, shows no team spirit towards them, let's see how long he lasts there. Clean or not, they aren't going to tolerate that - it would destroy the team from the inside.

How much more so for a team like Saxo who aren't openly 'reformed dopers' - they'd have even less patience than a Garmin.

I hope if nico catches wind of antics, he walks away and immediately tells WADA. But sticking his nose in the air based on possible past misdemeanors, pinning his team captain in his moment of glory with public doping questions. Come on, get real. It's not a remotely realistic request, regardless of whether K still dopes, or has done recently, and Kimmage knew it.

 

[Le Baroudeur]

Not for GTs but he certainly would be hoping for top billing for races like Amstel.

Because races like Paris-Nice aren't worthy of his talent and time?

Virtually all the senior riders on the team get to ride their own chances as leader or co-leader with the full support of their team mates. It's 100% about being a team and apraoching each race as a team.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Funny enough 24 hours earlier....



Yep, that's gonna warm Nico to Paul. Sure thing.

Kimmage said he loved Roche Snr.
What changed that? Because Kimmage would not say on the Late Late that Roche and Kelly were clean. That was early 90s.

Here is excerpts from an interview that Kimmage did with the son (called Nico) of the leader of the opposing clan.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

False dichotomy.

Let us take, for example, the Garmin team, and assume for the purposes of a thought experiment that they are as JV claims they are.

They could be, now, as clean as a penny whistle. But if some new rider joins, lets say, and immediately lets the former dopers know his disdain for them, shows no team spirit towards them, let's see how long he lasts there. Clean or not, they aren't going to tolerate that - it would destroy the team from the inside.

How much more so for a team like Saxo who aren't openly 'reformed dopers' - they'd have even less patience than a Garmin.

I hope if nico catches wind of antics, he walks away and immediately tells WADA. But sticking his nose in the air based on possible past misdemeanors, pinning his team captain in his moment of glory with public doping questions. Come on, get real. It's not a remotely realistic request, regardless of whether K still dopes, or has done recently, and Kimmage knew it.

So basically you went with option B.
It's like 1998 and the whole clean cycling stuff is PR.

Ok, then i could understand why Nico would be afraid to rock the boat.
But then you turn off your fone, cancel the fluff pieces put your head down and ride your bike.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Because races like Paris-Nice aren't worthy of his talent and time?

Virtually all the senior riders on the team get to ride their own chances as leader or co-leader with the full support of their team mates. It's 100% about being a team and apraoching each race as a team.

No idea what you mean about Paris Nice.

And yes, I agree that "Virtually all the senior riders" get a gig - but as a rider you want it to be in a race that suits you. More often than not it is how a riders current form is, how would you feel if you did everything right and clean and the team picks the in form doper?!

 

[Le Baroudeur]

No idea what you mean about Paris Nice.

He lead the team at Paris-Nice. I guess by your logic Roman should feel aggrieved.

 

[martinvickers]

Kimmage said he loved Roche Snr.
What changed that? Because Kimmage would not say on the Late Late that Roche and Kelly were clean. That was early 90s.

Here is excerpts from an interview that Kimmage did with the son (called Nico) of the leader of the opposing clan.

The son of the leader of the opposing clan is Andrew McQuaid. Roche Sr ain't the leader - watch more Game of Thrones.

“When he made that decision to join Riis’s team…he’s making a statement."

“The choice Nicolas had to make was not to associate himself with that team.”

The real heroes, according to Kimmage, are riders like Roche’s cousin.

I think Paul's views on Nico are pretty clear, don't you?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

He lead the team at Paris-Nice. I guess by your logic Roman should feel aggrieved.

I'd prefer to be a protected rider in the Classics. If you prefer PN then good for you.

Unless you are suggesting Roche is a Ferrari client and Roman is clean then why should Roman feel aggrieved?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

The son of the leader of the opposing clan is Andrew McQuaid. Roche Sr ain't the leader - watch more Game of Thrones.

I thought your whole point was that PK didn't like Roche Snr so was taking aim at his son in this bitter family feud thing?

I think Paul's views on Nico are pretty clear, don't you?

Ya, he didn't like that Roche joined Riis team (something you said a couple of posts back.......)
He doesn't appear to have a problem with Roche Snrs nephew being on Garmin.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Thanks to Skippy for posting the actual tweets. Sounds like a storm in a teacup.

As for the inflammatory use of the word, "melt-down" re: sticky bottle, what a larf.

I think PK posted two things that were direct, and also clever plays on words. Posters here have ranted for paragraph on paragraph and have the temerity to call a couple of tweets a melt-down. el oh el.

Unreal.

 

[Le Baroudeur]

I'd prefer to be a protected rider in the Classics. If you prefer PN then good for you.

Unless you are suggesting Roche is a Ferrari client and Roman is clean then why should Roman feel aggrieved?

You think Nico is better suited to AGR than PN? Iirc PN was his prefference.

I remain far from convinced either of them is doping. Astana certainly weren't that impressed with Roman's performances, despite their alleged teeam wide involvement in the Padova Triangle his name hasn't popped up once afaik. Roman certainly has some questions to answer regarding his Liquigas days and to clear up statements by other riders and why/if the team was sending ridders to MF, and I assume he has allready been asked by Italian investigators about it. No doubt they will give PK what he seeks in good time, as would be thenormal procedure, and one the PK is more than aware of.

martinvickers makes some very valid points imho, and in hindsight they more than clarify to my mind, the reasons for PK's many recent and focused pops at TST and Bjarne rather than the many teams and owners involved in 'Operacion Padova'.

 

[Ferminal]

You think Nico is better suited to AGR than PN? Iirc PN was his prefference.
.

Much more suited to P-N, never really done anything in a major one day race.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

You think Nico is better suited to AGR than PN? Iirc PN was his prefference.

No not really, although AGR is probably the most suited classic for him.
But regardless , point is whichever race he or any rider prefers, how would a clean rider feel if they are being overlooked for a race by a suspicious team mate.

I remain far from convinced either of them is doping. Astana certainly weren't that impressed with Roman's performances, despite their alleged teeam wide involvement in the Padova Triangle his name hasn't popped up once afaik. Roman certainly has some questions to answer regarding his Liquigas days and to clear up statements by other riders and why/if the team was sending ridders to MF, and I assume he has allready been asked by Italian investigators about it. No doubt they will give PK what he seeks in good time, as would be thenormal procedure, and one the PK is more than aware of.

martinvickers makes some very valid points imho, and in hindsight they more than clarify to my mind, the reasons for PK's many recent and focused pops at TST and Bjarne rather than the many teams and owners involved in 'Operacion Padova'.

Can you show just 10 or 12 of these "many recent pops" at TST and Bjarne?

And when you say Martin clarified things for you - weren't you saying a couple weeks back that Riis might not have known about Bassos doping or supplied Tyler with Fuentes number?