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Peter Sagan discussion thread.

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I've seen some folks going all "Ewan was the best sprinter and he didn't win the green jersey, they should change the rules because they favour Sagan too much".

Like how many times were the rules of the green jersey changed specifically to handicap Sagan? :lol:
 
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jmdirt said:
I wonder what PS (and I suppose his sponsors) want next. Another green jersey doesn't seem 'exciting'.

Now, I would love to see a few other guys step up and make the completion exciting. Even if PS wins another, a five rider battle would be cool!
He needs to set a record like 10 greens that will never be broken
 
Feb 25, 2018
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Finn84 said:
While Sagan had not raced in the Tour yet when the change was made, I feel that the change which gave huge point haul for intermediate sprint works much for his favour.
I agree. If they combined new system for finish points (50-30-20, etc.) with old system for intermediate sprints (6-4-2, 2 times in a stage) he would most likely not win the green. With current system I do not see any rider except of Van Aert or MVdP who can contest for the green if Sagan targets it.
 
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Finn84 said:
While Sagan had not raced in the Tour yet when the change was made, I feel that the change which gave huge point haul for intermediate sprint works much for his favour.
I don't see it. It's another opportunity for pure sprinters to set up a pure sprint and bag more points than Sagan. It's not Sagan's fault if his potential rivals decide not to contest them.
 
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hrotha said:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/changes-to-tour-de-france-green-jersey-classification-confirmed/
"Previously we've had 45, 35 and 30 points for the top three positions respectively. Now we will award 50, 30 and 20 points. The person who wins the stage will have a bigger advantage over the others, and it's something which brings the pure sprinters back into the frame for the green jersey."
does that disadvantage Sagan? He's always one of the Favourites on every flat stage and has won several. His margin to second seems pretty similar both pre and post 2014. Seems like it's had no effect.
 
Whether or not it had any effect is rather irrelevant when you have Gouvenou say explicitly that the goal of the change was to benefit pure sprinters. And that was on top of a previous change that awarded more points to flat stages in a transparent attempt to handicap all-rounders.
 
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hrotha said:
Whether or not it had any effect is rather irrelevant when you have Gouvenou say explicitly that the goal of the change was to benefit pure sprinters. And that was on top of a previous change that awarded more points to flat stages in a transparent attempt to handicap all-rounders.
You can't include the second point as Sagan wasn't racing for the jersey then. You can't specifically handicap a racer who isn't competing. That change also massively increased the number of points for intermediate sprints and extended them down into more positions. You also ignored the increase in points for medium mountain/hilly stages which benefited all-rounders. Those changes were really a wash.

The first point gets to the nub of the discussion. If you assume the goal was succeeded, then you have to ask, is Sagan a pure sprinter? No. Is he as good a sprinter as the pure sprinters? The data would suggest he may well be, or at least was. 3 flat stage wins in 2016, only Cav took 1 more. 2 flat stage wins in 2018, same as the other top sprinters I think.
 
The second point was there just to highlight the organizers' will to favour pure sprinters over all-rounders. I know it doesn't apply to Sagan personally, that's why I didn't include it from the beginning. It's just to contextualize the intentions behind the change Gouvenu was talking about.

I don't see why we should assume the goal succeeded, or that it didn't. It's frankly quite irrelevant because this is about intentions. That Sagan can win and has won flat sprints doesn't change much, because that's still where pure sprinters are more likely to beat him.
 
It's not about intention though. As you said:

I've seen some folks going all "Ewan was the best sprinter and he didn't win the green jersey, they should change the rules because they favour Sagan too much".
That's not intention. That's people saying the rules do favour Sagan, whether the intention was otherwise or not is the irrelevant part.

They've been changed once while Sagan has been racing and based on his results after the change it had no effect on the competition. To be honest that's the main reason I replied, I thought the laughing smiley was a little silly/facetious based on the data.
 
IMO: I like having something other than the finish sprint determine the green jersey. As to the point that CE is the better sprinter, he saved most of his energy for the finish line, and really took it easy anytime the road tilted up. If PS used the same strategy, he would win more stages. PS is a better sprinter than CE.
 
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Red Rick said:
Sagan isn't a better flat sprinter than Ewan by any stretch.

It's not bad that Sagan wins. It's bad that Sagan wins and it's never even remotely in doubt.
I agree, I said something similar above...I'd like to see five guys battling for green.

PS is a better sprinter than CE (don't add qualifiers like 'flat'...the world isn't flat :) If PS's number one goal was field sprinting, he would be the best in the platoon.
 
Regarding the suggestion that ASO might have made some changes in order to make it more difficult for Sagan to win the green jersey, besides awarding more points for winning flat stages, it has also been noted that more intermediate sprints are now earlier in the stage so that pure sprinters can contest them before they drop from the peloton on the mountain. But I do not know to what extent this is correct.
From ASO perspective I can see incentives from both sides - on one hand the current set-up helped to create "legendary record", on the other hand the competition is more or less decided in the middle of the Tour and competition lacks suspense after that.
 
The fact remains that Ewan could have had a good shot at this jersey if he had gone for it. Don't tell me it takes that much energy out of you to participate in the intermediate sprints, if you're just picking up the leftover points.

I was very surprised by Ewan's incredible speed and his consistency, placing himself in the top 3 in all the bunch sprints of the race. That's usually Sagan's main weapon.

On the other hand, Ewan really seemed to struggle in the mountains.
 
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tobydawq said:
The fact remains that Ewan could have had a good shot at this jersey if he had gone for it. Don't tell me it takes that much energy out of you to participate in the intermediate sprints, if you're just picking up the leftover points.

I was very surprised by Ewan's incredible speed and his consistency, placing himself in the top 3 in all the bunch sprints of the race. That's usually Sagan's main weapon.

On the other hand, Ewan really seemed to struggle in the mountains.
Ewan and Gaviria (still havent lost my faith yet) can trouble Sagan with the new system, I think. But its just so damn hard if Sagan goes in the break on these intermediate days, for example like Gap (dunno why he missed that this year though). That is if Sagan isn't flying like this year - other years it really doesnt matter, he is just classes above.
 
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Valv.Piti said:
Ewan and Gaviria (still havent lost my faith yet) can trouble Sagan with the new system, I think. But its just so damn hard if Sagan goes in the break on these intermediate days, for example like Gap (dunno why he missed that this year though). That is if Sagan isn't flying like this year - other years it really doesnt matter, he is just classes above.
Because it wasn't necessary.
 
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rghysens said:
Valv.Piti said:
Ewan and Gaviria (still havent lost my faith yet) can trouble Sagan with the new system, I think. But its just so damn hard if Sagan goes in the break on these intermediate days, for example like Gap (dunno why he missed that this year though). That is if Sagan isn't flying like this year - other years it really doesnt matter, he is just classes above.
Because it wasn't necessary.
It was still a good opportunity for him to get a second stage victory. The best version of Sagan would have been the favourite there.
 
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rghysens said:
Valv.Piti said:
Ewan and Gaviria (still havent lost my faith yet) can trouble Sagan with the new system, I think. But its just so damn hard if Sagan goes in the break on these intermediate days, for example like Gap (dunno why he missed that this year though). That is if Sagan isn't flying like this year - other years it really doesnt matter, he is just classes above.
Because it wasn't necessary.
On a couple of days at least he was very active forcing and surfing around the front but just didn’t have the Midas touch this time of being there when the elastic snapped and the breakaway went fully clear.

I thought his bunch sprits were some of the worst of his career as I feel like he was boxed in several times and finished outside the top 3 more often than any other tour though I don’t have the stats to say so.

I don’t think you can twist the rules too much without altering the character of the competition hugely which would diminish the history of the Green Jersey and would feel very artificial. One option might be to greatly increase the prize fund for top 3 in the points classification in Paris so that more riders choose to make it a race goal.
 
Nov 20, 2018
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hayneplane said:
rghysens said:
Valv.Piti said:
Ewan and Gaviria (still havent lost my faith yet) can trouble Sagan with the new system, I think. But its just so damn hard if Sagan goes in the break on these intermediate days, for example like Gap (dunno why he missed that this year though). That is if Sagan isn't flying like this year - other years it really doesnt matter, he is just classes above.
Because it wasn't necessary.
On a couple of days at least he was very active forcing and surfing around the front but just didn’t have the Midas touch this time of being there when the elastic snapped and the breakaway went fully clear..
He appeared to not going full gas the whole tour. He was mostly controlling his opponents in the points competition.


hayneplane said:
I thought his bunch sprits were some of the worst of his career as I feel like he was boxed in several times and finished outside the top 3 more often than any other tour though I don’t have the stats to say so..
In most sprints he picked up Viviani's wheel. Several times it was a mistake.

Usually he has around 7 top 3s.

hayneplane said:
I don’t think you can twist the rules too much without altering the character of the competition hugely which would diminish the history of the Green Jersey and would feel very artificial. One option might be to greatly increase the prize fund for top 3 in the points classification in Paris so that more riders choose to make it a race goal.
Another option is to award UCI points also for the points competition. If there were 150 fifty points for the second place then maybe Matthews would continue to fight.
 
i think this discussion is rather pointless because first we have to admit green jersey is not the "best sprinter contest"(and it never was, who here believes Erik Zabel was the best sprinter in his time?), its just that because of points system and amount of flat stages, its usually the fast guys who dominate the competition but in reality its "the best at getting points" contest the same way polka dot jersey isnt " the best climber" contest - who here truly believe bardet is the best climber? nobody, how come wellens who isnt a good climber wore the jersey for the most of tour? because he is the best at getting those little climbs...its the same discussion about MVP awards in other sports and its been like that for years and people need to be constantly reminded that MVP doesnt mean "the best player", its just who had the best season

so ewan can easily be the best sprinter, but he sucks at getting points, bummer for him, so there are only two options - either give more points in finishes/less points in intermediate sprints - or create a new competition for "the best sprinter"

either way changing the competition because of domination of one person is rather lazy, they didnt change the rules in 90s when Bulls won 6 times, they didnt change the rules for Armstrong or Indurain, just wait for your time,im pretty sure somebody like van aert will have a very good chance to win it in like couple of years
 
There are UCI points for the points competition already (but not many compared to the GC).

The prize money is a lot better comparatively- 15k EU for 2nd place

The points competition since it was changed to award a lot of points for the intermediate sprints (around the start of the decade) has become a bit silly. Inevitably the meaningful points are taken by the break and so you end up with a few sprinters "fighting" for effectively 1 or 2 pts. So a complete waste of time unless you are the only points contender there. If there is a proper points contest then on the more selective stages each team just ends up chasing down the opposition guy which is often what happened this year with Bora and Sunweb. Matthews ended up dropping himself out of the competition in order to get in a break so he could try and win a stage.

I thought it was a much more interesting competition when the vast majority of points were at the stage finish
 
Let's not forget that pure sprinters have primarily stage wins asa the main objective whereas green jersey should be "designed" primarily for more allround guys like Sagan or Matthews (or EBH, WvA, or even GvA, depending on how many breakaway friendly stages are there and how hard). The obvious "problem" with Sagan is that he takes way too much points in flat sprints wrt. other allrounders and even more from breakaways (incl. intermediate sprints) wrt. other pure sprinters. That's why he is untouchable unless someone else (WvA?) specifically targets the Green, with team support etc. Another possibility for pure sprinters is if there is one clearly dominating guy who wins all sprints and adds fair amount of intermediates. On the other hand, climbing allrounders may have a chance in case of favorable Tour design (lots of intermediate sprints after a decent climb, lots of "hard enough" breakaway friendly stages, Bora unable to chase it down for some reason (and other teams not interested).
 

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