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Peter Sagan discussion thread.

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Oct 1, 2015
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If I remember corectly they changed system to prefer pure sprinters like Cav back in 2011. One of the reason if my memory is right was that in 2009 Hushovd won one stage and Cavendish six stages in 2009 but Hushovd won Jersey. Than Sagan came and was head and shoulders above rest. Than Sagan won green without winning stage in 2014 and than oficials changed system again to favour pure sprinters with more points for win and less for placings. Sagan won in 2015 again without stage win. The system would be really skewed to allow somebody beat peak Sagan. However this year he missed something just like in the classics (but not so much) but nobody really tried to challenge him. I think this year was first time he was beatable.
 
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Singularitarian said:
Let's not forget that pure sprinters have primarily stage wins asa the main objective whereas green jersey should be "designed" primarily for more allround guys like Sagan or Matthews (or EBH, WvA, or even GvA, depending on how many breakaway friendly stages are there and how hard). The obvious "problem" with Sagan is that he takes way too much points in flat sprints wrt. other allrounders and even more from breakaways (incl. intermediate sprints) wrt. other pure sprinters. That's why he is untouchable unless someone else (WvA?) specifically targets the Green, with team support etc. Another possibility for pure sprinters is if there is one clearly dominating guy who wins all sprints and adds fair amount of intermediates. On the other hand, climbing allrounders may have a chance in case of favorable Tour design (lots of intermediate sprints after a decent climb, lots of "hard enough" breakaway friendly stages, Bora unable to chase it down for some reason (and other teams not interested).
Good post. The conundrum is that most riders versatile enough to contend are also on teams with other preferred riders for the big flat stage finishes and do team duty rather than scrap for placings. If you pack it full of lumpy days then maybe a Trentin, GVA, WVA or MVDP can challenge.

If Alaphilippe came with it as a big objective then he would put up a proper challenge but in the modern era it would cost way too much energy to try to win Green and ride for GC overall.
 
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tobydawq said:
The fact remains that Ewan could have had a good shot at this jersey if he had gone for it. Don't tell me it takes that much energy out of you to participate in the intermediate sprints, if you're just picking up the leftover points.
It's not just your energy. It's the energy from your leadout too and the relative benefit of making large efforts for small gains where your main opponent can just follow your wheel, making very little effort. Sprinters need to weigh this against the chances of losing out on the stage win and what that means, not just for points but also for the team and sponsors. There is very low interest in the jersey anyway, I think most just think it's not worth it considering Sagan can pick up so many points elsewhere when they have little to no chance. From what I remember, the last pure sprinter who really seemed bothered about intermediates was Cav, possibly Kittel? This may have been driven by their relative dominance in the bunch sprints and confidence that they could win the stage while still contesting the points elsewhere. At the moment there isn't one dominant sprinter and the rewards for winning the stage are too great to sacrifice on a slim chance of competing for Green.



To bring this back on topic, in terms of the competition I have no problem with Sagan winning the jersey every year he finishes the Tour for the rest of his career. If that happens then so be it. At the end of the day it's a points competition, not a sprint competition and if riders want to compete they need to be able to get points in more than just the finish of flat stages. If ASO want it to be a sprint competition then they need to strip points from everything except the flat stage finishes and award 50, 30 and 10 points for 1st, 2nd and 3rd respectively. Otherwise people just have to accept that Sagan is one of the most talented riders to ever race and suits this competition more than anyone we've ever seen.
 
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King Boonen said:
tobydawq said:
The fact remains that Ewan could have had a good shot at this jersey if he had gone for it. Don't tell me it takes that much energy out of you to participate in the intermediate sprints, if you're just picking up the leftover points.
It's not just your energy. It's the energy from your leadout too and the relative benefit of making large efforts for small gains where your main opponent can just follow your wheel, making very little effort. Sprinters need to weigh this against the chances of losing out on the stage win and what that means, not just for points but also for the team and sponsors. There is very low interest in the jersey anyway, I think most just think it's not worth it considering Sagan can pick up so many points elsewhere when they have little to no chance. From what I remember, the last pure sprinter who really seemed bothered about intermediates was Cav, possibly Kittel? This may have been driven by their relative dominance in the bunch sprints and confidence that they could win the stage while still contesting the points elsewhere. At the moment there isn't one dominant sprinter and the rewards for winning the stage are too great to sacrifice on a slim chance of competing for Green.



To bring this back on topic, in terms of the competition I have no problem with Sagan winning the jersey every year he finishes the Tour for the rest of his career. If that happens then so be it. At the end of the day it's a points competition, not a sprint competition and if riders want to compete they need to be able to get points in more than just the finish of flat stages. If ASO want it to be a sprint competition then they need to strip points from everything except the flat stage finishes and award 50, 30 and 10 points for 1st, 2nd and 3rd respectively. Otherwise people just have to accept that Sagan is one of the most talented riders to ever race and suits this competition more than anyone we've ever seen.
Or to keep it a bit juicier: 25, 20, 15, 10, 5.
 
Sagan wasn’t putting a big effort in on a lot of those intermediates, though. He followed wheels and literally rolled across the line in Viviani’s or Colbrelli’s or Matthews’ slipstream. He would happily concede the few points difference for 5th or 6th place and then finish higher in the final. You don’t need to have your sprint train rolling from 5km out like a stage finish.

Obviously if a sprinter like Ewan was pushing Sagan closer, his tactics might change, but I think there’s a strong case to be made for Ewan to contest a few midway sprints and try for green next year.
 
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Eyeballs Out said:
There are UCI points for the points competition already (but not many compared to the GC).

The prize money is a lot better comparatively- 15k EU for 2nd place

The points competition since it was changed to award a lot of points for the intermediate sprints (around the start of the decade) has become a bit silly. Inevitably the meaningful points are taken by the break and so you end up with a few sprinters "fighting" for effectively 1 or 2 pts. So a complete waste of time unless you are the only points contender there. If there is a proper points contest then on the more selective stages each team just ends up chasing down the opposition guy which is often what happened this year with Bora and Sunweb. Matthews ended up dropping himself out of the competition in order to get in a break so he could try and win a stage.

I thought it was a much more interesting competition when the vast majority of points were at the stage finish
The old system, with 3 separate intermediate sprints and points for the first 3 placings at each, meant that the break hoovered up all the points before the peloton ever got there. There was no intermediate sprinting.
 
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Leinster said:
Eyeballs Out said:
There are UCI points for the points competition already (but not many compared to the GC).

The prize money is a lot better comparatively- 15k EU for 2nd place

The points competition since it was changed to award a lot of points for the intermediate sprints (around the start of the decade) has become a bit silly. Inevitably the meaningful points are taken by the break and so you end up with a few sprinters "fighting" for effectively 1 or 2 pts. So a complete waste of time unless you are the only points contender there. If there is a proper points contest then on the more selective stages each team just ends up chasing down the opposition guy which is often what happened this year with Bora and Sunweb. Matthews ended up dropping himself out of the competition in order to get in a break so he could try and win a stage.

I thought it was a much more interesting competition when the vast majority of points were at the stage finish
The old system, with 3 separate intermediate sprints and points for the first 3 placings at each, meant that the break hoovered up all the points before the peloton ever got there. There was no intermediate sprinting.
Exactly. The jersey was decided by the stage finishes and I preferred it that way. There was no such thing as riders opting not to contest the points jersey
 
In the 90s and early 00s when there were three sprints with points available only for the first three riders wasn't rare to see the break not allowed to go until after the first one and catched before the last, with bonus seconds up for grabs at every sprint and an almost always pan flat first week the sprinters had also the possibility to grab the yellow jersey as incentive to fight in intermediate sprints.
 
I just saw that he is currently sitting 11th in the CQ rankings. That might be the first time since 2011 that he is outside the top 10.

He looked very good in Hamburg, though, and was very unfortunate in the sprint. He looks set for the Canadian double and a fourth Worlds seems increasingly realistic.
 
Mar 26, 2017
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Worst season since.... 2010, maybe 2011? His only real highlight this year is a stage and a green jersey at the TdF. I'm hoping he can win a big race again but the new generation of riders is really strong and he's only going to have it harder.
 
Worst season since.... 2010, maybe 2011? His only real highlight this year is a stage and a green jersey at the TdF. I'm hoping he can win a big race again but the new generation of riders is really strong and he's only going to have it harder.
I think he was the strongest rider today, though, and that is very encouraging for next year. He made a terrible decision by not thinking that moves on the third last lap could be too dangerous and therefore did not position himself well on the hill where MvdP went.

But then he absolutely killed the rest and put in half a minute on them on the last lap. Probably his best physical performance of the year.
 
Mar 26, 2017
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I think he was the strongest rider today, though, and that is very encouraging for next year. He made a terrible decision by not thinking that moves on the third last lap could be too dangerous and therefore did not position himself well on the hill where MvdP went.

But then he absolutely killed the rest and put in half a minute on them on the last lap. Probably his best physical performance of the year.
That's nice and all but it doesn't mean much when he can't translate it to a victory. At this stage of his career it isn't about placings, it's all about victories.
 
That's nice and all but it doesn't mean much when he can't translate it to a victory. At this stage of his career it isn't about placings, it's all about victories.
Obviously, and if yoo took the time to read what I wrote I did say that "it was very encouraging for next year" rather than celebrate the result today.

It shows that he can get back to being the best in the classics, and I had feared that those days were over.
 
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That's nice and all but it doesn't mean much when he can't translate it to a victory. At this stage of his career it isn't about placings, it's all about victories.
Don't be too harsh on him though. Sagan is always the one everyone else watch and will never let go. In every other race he has decent support at least, when his competitors attack. In WC like today he has to rely on other countries acting as (involuntary) domestiques for him to do the dirty work. He is not an alien after all.
 
Sagan is reluctant to attack because other riders usually refuse to work with him BUT he made a big mistake in not following MVDP, because he would have worked with Sagan.
 
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This guy complains every time. Dont bother with him. He just being plain stupid every time he opens his mouth.
Who do you mean? certainly not sagan, as he clearly stated, that in the end, he made a mistake. He chose not follow mvdp, since belgium and france had quite the numbers still in the group an actually the smart thing to do, but today it was was "special".
 
Oct 1, 2015
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It seems that he found best shape of this season. Good sign that his days are not over. I am curious how motivated he will be next season. He has not any real season goal besides three spring monuments . With OG and WC RR for climbers as a record holder of TDF green he can go on vacation after Roubaix.
 
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Who do you mean? certainly not sagan, as he clearly stated, that in the end, he made a mistake. He chose not follow mvdp, since belgium and france had quite the numbers still in the group an actually the smart thing to do, but today it was was "special".
I was talking about the guy in the thread that always slander Sagan after every race.
 

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