Teams & Riders Peter Sagan discussion thread.

[argyllflyer]

Re: Re:

Daniel Friebe said in the cycling podcast recently that there are (I assume well-founded if he's parrotting them) rumours Sagan has let the Monaco lifestyle affect him on-bike.

what do you mean by that? Please collaborate. is he leaving a lifestyle that was more training before or he is leaving the style that mostly less training?

Nightlife / booze.

 

[SeriousSam]

Can be combined with winning monuments, see Boonen, Tom. Maybe cocaine is not as taxing as booze.

 

[HelloDolly]

Re: Re:

Daniel Friebe said in the cycling podcast recently that there are (I assume well-founded if he's parrotting them) rumours Sagan has let the Monaco lifestyle affect him on-bike.

what do you mean by that? Please collaborate. is he leaving a lifestyle that was more training before or he is leaving the style that mostly less training?

Nightlife / booze.

What do you expect when you give a kid who has never won a monument $4 million

 

[Bushman]

Do you really think Sagan doesn't like cobbles? I think he looks comfortable going over them, no problem there.

Sagan was supposedly sick today, something with his stomach. Also he had problems with his bike after the second to last cobbles sector and had to change his bike a couple of k's later.

 

[tomorrow]

Re:

Do you really think Sagan doesn't like cobbles? I think he looks comfortable going over them, no problem there.

Sagan was supposedly sick today, something with his stomach. Also he had problems with his bike after the second to last cobbles sector and had to change his bike a couple of k's later.

Yup, he was definately sick, as the reason, why he was at the back before Haveluy was, that he had to answer the nature, but the more solid one, not the liquid, although with illnes who knows

And the problem with the bike, it was after Carrefour I think, or the sector after, one second he was in first position of the peloton, and then, he was suddenly in the last keeping hitting the left brake, I also noticed him trying to persuade the pedals to work with his right foot, so there probably were some shifting(probably up) problems, as he wasn't able to accelerate, but had not problem staying with the group he was in on the remaining cobbles.

But until the bike problem, he was looking very good, definately better than last year. He even had no problem follow Van Marcke and actually seemed to react to correct attack, which would indicate tactical maturing too. I just didn't get purpose of the attack on the sector before Mons en Pevele. It looked like he came to it more by an accident than with intention.

 

[argyllflyer]

Re: Re:

Daniel Friebe said in the cycling podcast recently that there are (I assume well-founded if he's parrotting them) rumours Sagan has let the Monaco lifestyle affect him on-bike.

what do you mean by that? Please collaborate. is he leaving a lifestyle that was more training before or he is leaving the style that mostly less training?

Nightlife / booze.

What do you expect when you give a kid who has never won a monument $4 million

eh professionalism?

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

still people who think Sagan is better than Degenkolb?

Degenkolb gets the big wins. It's quality not quanitity that counts

 

[MatParker117]

Re:

still people who think Sagan is better than Degenkolb?

Degenkolb gets the big wins. It's quality not quanitity that counts

Down to ride the Giro? Favourite for Red if that's the case.

 

[The Hitch]

Its still difficult for sprinters to win the points classification. So long as stages don't get cancelled. Time limit could be difficult on a few stages and the gc riders have their shots as well.

 

[MatParker117]

Re:

Its still difficult for sprinters to win the points classification. So long as stages don't get cancelled. Time limit could be difficult on a few stages and the gc riders have their shots as well.

They changed the scoring last year:

The points awarded at stage finishes will vary, with three levels of points on offer depending on the stages. RCS Sport has not yet specified which stages will be in which level but the idea is to favour the sprinters.

The first level, presumably the flat stages, will award points to 20 riders on a scale from 50 to 1 point. Level two stages will award points to the top 15 riders on a scale of 25 to 1 and level three stages will award points to the top 10 riders on a scale of 15 to 1 point. Points at intermediate sprints will follow a similar scale.

 

[hrotha]

Re:

Do you really think Sagan doesn't like cobbles?

Right now he doesn't look like he likes cycling, let alone cobbles.

 

[SeriousSam]

Tinkov:

"I don’t accept this *** when people talk about pressure it is absolutely ridiculous. They’re in the business to be under pressure, they are professional bike riders and they have to be under pressure by default, that’s the sport. If they cannot handle the pressure then they must be in a different job."

We will see. It’s a sport, you never know. I hope that he will learn from this. I don’t know, he should probably be training or something like this."

Sagan better get to work and produce some results. There might be a no monuments bye bye clause in his 4m/year contract.

 

[mrhender]

Re: Re:

Do you really think Sagan doesn't like cobbles?

Right now he doesn't look like he likes cycling, let alone cobbles.

This!!

He used to be a happy confident cycling-loving boy with attitude..

Now the former "Tourminator" is going cold in every final...

I liked him better before, even though I sometimes found him a bit arrogant...

This is just sad.

I hope he finds "himself" so we and not the least he, can enjoy some of the Tourminator magic again...

 

[thehook]

He definitely looks heavier, more muscular in the upper body. And the hair do sticking out of an aero helmet? Oleg made some comments about not being happy. He mentions that he will talk to Julich. B.J. is a training geek, so I'm doubting that he did not have a solid plan for Sagan.

In reality, going by Peters last season results.He was a rider in decline. He cashed in on a major contract. And now he needs to live up to it. Yes he is very young. And there is plenty of time to get it turned around. But he needs to come up with some answers and some form. Because Dege, GVA, Kiwa are making him look real bad. These are the riders of his generation and they are getting results. GVA is not winning but he is making serious noise in every race he is in.

 

[Jelantik]

Re: Re:

Do you really think Sagan doesn't like cobbles?

Right now he doesn't look like he likes cycling, let alone cobbles.

This!!

He used to be a happy confident cycling-loving boy with attitude..

Now the former "Tourminator" is going cold in every final...

I liked him better before, even though I sometimes found him a bit arrogant...

This is just sad.

I hope he finds "himself" so we and not the least he, can enjoy some of the Tourminator magic again...

Yeah, he seems a little humble I guess. Few years back, he was unstoppable and his antics sometimes rubbing people the wrong way. But he was so confident. This year, he seems a little subdued. He was no where as strong as he used to be. I don't know if he was just adjusting to the different training workload or he is enjoying making 4M too much. Looks like Sagan is going through what Alberto went through in 2013. They're both being dropped by their rivals on their targeted goal. I'm still waiting for Sagan to show up, maybe next year?

 

[argyllflyer]

Re:

He definitely looks heavier, more muscular in the upper body. And the hair do sticking out of an aero helmet? Oleg made some comments about not being happy. He mentions that he will talk to Julich. B.J. is a training geek, so I'm doubting that he did not have a solid plan for Sagan.

In reality, going by Peters last season results.He was a rider in decline. He cashed in on a major contract. And now he needs to live up to it. Yes he is very young. And there is plenty of time to get it turned around. But he needs to come up with some answers and some form. Because Dege, GVA, Kiwa are making him look real bad. These are the riders of his generation and they are getting results. GVA is not winning but he is making serious noise in every race he is in.

He's 25 and this is his SIXTH season in the Professional peloton. His results have been getting worse with every season, though he did add a few more heavyweight results in 2013 and 2014 - Gent-Wevelgem and E3. Early developers don't always go on to have stellar careers - this is especially true of say some football players who stand out in the youth / U19 / U21 ranks internationally yet only go on to receive a handful of caps at the top level as they stop improving or have reached a physical peak at a young age and everyone else catches up - if Sagan had rode the U23s until the end of 2013 then we could be talking about a rider with a very limited pro peloton palmares. As it was he turned pro young, got some results quickly and maintained that for a year or two. But it's downhill since 2012 in terms of numbers of wins.

 

[hrotha]

In my opinion, Sagan got better every year up to and including 2013. That's what made me hopeful that he wouldn't be a flash in the pan, your typical eastern European early bloomer who later fades into irrelevancy or mediocrity, but two seasons of diminishing performances in a row are worrisome.

 

[Kokoso]

Re:

In my opinion, Sagan got better every year up to and including 2013. That's what made me hopeful that he wouldn't be a flash in the pan, your typical eastern European early bloomer who later fades into irrelevancy or mediocrity, but two seasons of diminishing performances in a row are worrisome.

I think I heard it other way round - Czech and Slovak sportsmen mature later. I've read discussion on this topic somewhere in this forum and there were lot of names as examples of young cyclist who didn't fulfil early promises and most of the names weren't even of middle or eastern Europe, so in the final it looked like that's nothing but myth. For exampe, Boasson Hagen, Cunego, Pozzato...are they eastern Europe? And one could proceed .

 

[hrotha]

I'm not referring to the unbiased reality but to the cycling trope, and the trope references the likes of Berzin, Popovych, Karpets or, since you brought up former Czechoslovakia, Kreuziger.

 

[ray j willings]

I think we can only guess about Sagan's poor form. Physically IMO he does not look as strong on the bike as he was. I don't think he was happy when he won his Green Jersey at the tour. He looked miserable. He always came up short at PR etc even at his best. Those are the races he is expected to win. I think maybe PR etc are just to hard for him to win. His victory's usually have come easy for him and he cannot win PR easy let alone just win it. He is not a GT contender so maybe in his mind he as achieved all he can and the hunger has gone.

 

[TomasC]

Now that he finally trained well in Belgium and France, he should ride the Ardennes classics, not rest and then go surfin' USA.

 

[SeriousSam]

No, after a hard and succesfull spring, it's time to win a stage or two in the great road race that is the Tour of California and enjoy the adulation of the fans

 

[tomorrow]

Re: Re:

He's 25 and this is his SIXTH season in the Professional peloton. His results have been getting worse with every season, though he did add a few more heavyweight results in 2013 and 2014 - Gent-Wevelgem and E3. Early developers don't always go on to have stellar careers - this is especially true of say some football players who stand out in the youth / U19 / U21 ranks internationally yet only go on to receive a handful of caps at the top level as they stop improving or have reached a physical peak at a young age and everyone else catches up - if Sagan had rode the U23s until the end of 2013 then we could be talking about a rider with a very limited pro peloton palmares. As it was he turned pro young, got some results quickly and maintained that for a year or two. But it's downhill since 2012 in terms of numbers of wins.

I partially agree with you. It's true Sagan looked like a beast during the his early career. But I don't think we have seen peak from him. Hi's getting better curve was just soo, soooo steep. I actually think he's getting better, just look at times on Kwaremont and Patterberg this year and 2013, he beat the 2013 times. I know the race was not so hard as in 2013, so he saved some extra power, but still. He is not getting worse, only the competion has bridge the gap onto him.
The reason why he stood out so much 2, 3 years back is because there was nobody that could match him in what he's good at. The older cyclists weren't at the level, and he kept beating the likes of Degenkolb, Kristoff as it looked like there was no competition. Since then, his getting better curve has stop rising(hopefully just for a while) and the other young guns, although 2 - 3 years older have caught up to him. And with the age, there comes also the wiseness to play their cards correctly, which for sagan seems to be coming, but have not come yet. Had he had the wiseness 3 years back, he would have had some monuments in his palmares, because he was so dominant at that times. Back than, he had multiple wins because he was so much above the others, but the skill is not enough to win the big ones, as Boonen said, you have to know how to win Ronde and Roubaix, the power itself is not enough.
For the races and also for sagan himself it's good that he has the competition, because without it, after cancellara retires, he would take one cobbled classic after another without having to get better. He definately has the body that can interesting things, he just needs to start getting better every year, both physically and mentally. I think that the stagnation is definately caused by his very easy wins because of two reasons. Everybody started to mark him, so without the experience, he lost too much races in his head, and maybe he also thought that he would be wining like he used forever and ever.

Btw, yesterday, had he had no problems with bike, he would be there with degenkolb, he looked definately better than him on cobbles. If he could challenge him in the sprint, that we will hopefully get to know next year. Or maybe not

 

[wayahead]

I dont think his yesterdays performance is reason to bash him. We just dont know how strong he was, from helicopter view its evident that he had mechanical problem long before his bike change. I personally think he was strong enough to follow Degenkolb or Stybar and be beaten by them on velodrome Cobbles also no problem this year, which was the case in the past (you can see him struggling on pave during his last year P-R attack or on Oude Kwaremont). But overall his spring was bad one, once again. OK he was close in MSR and one of the strongest in RvV. But he is lacking any differentiating skill against the bests, no trick pony at the moment. He is missing either stamina or speed in the finales.

I think he's just been completely thrown off by the rise of Kristoff and Degenkolb. We've got two riders now who have engines as strong as the pure classics specialists, but who can also win sprints against the likes of Cav and Bouhanni on flat GT stages.

Kristoff and Degenkolb are everything that Sagan was supposed to be.

He's 25 and this is his SIXTH season in the Professional peloton. His results have been getting worse with every season, though he did add a few more heavyweight results in 2013 and 2014 - Gent-Wevelgem and E3. Early developers don't always go on to have stellar careers - this is especially true of say some football players who stand out in the youth / U19 / U21 ranks internationally yet only go on to receive a handful of caps at the top level as they stop improving or have reached a physical peak at a young age and everyone else catches up - if Sagan had rode the U23s until the end of 2013 then we could be talking about a rider with a very limited pro peloton palmares. As it was he turned pro young, got some results quickly and maintained that for a year or two. But it's downhill since 2012 in terms of numbers of wins.

As hrotha corrected, in fact his 2013 season was the best ever, 22 victories, monument podiums etc. Thats what confuse me - he was stellar in Quebec and Montreal races, improving gradually from 2010, and suddenly several months later he wasnt the same rider again. Thats why I am reserved to that "early peaking Eastern boy" explanation (based on the theory of exaggerated training and racing load in early career). I think its in his head, he was successfull too soon and without big effort and suddenly something changed and he was not ready to face it. Too many PR stuff and popularity etc. It happens not only in sport, its very common in life. Successfull careers are usually zig-zags.

 

[Kokoso]

Re:

I'm not referring to the unbiased reality but to the cycling trope, and the trope references the likes of Berzin, Popovych, Karpets or, since you brought up former Czechoslovakia, Kreuziger.

Well Kreuziger isn't example fot his. Hw won Amstel, was second on San Sebastian, fifth in TdF...