Teams & Riders Peter Sagan discussion thread.

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re:

Great stuff from Peter. Here's some wisdom from Olega:

Daniel Friebe @friebos · 9h 9 hours ago
Tinkov to @cirogazzetta: 'If I can find a way to do it legally, I'd like to cut Sagan's salary."

and about his love of cycling:

Daniel Friebe @friebos · 9h 9 hours ago
Lastly from Tinkov: 'I don't know how long I'll stay in cycling. This isn't business, it's a toy. And kids can lose interest in their toys."

I have no time for Tinkov at all. But the toy quote shows more self awareness than I would normally give him credit for.

 

[argyllflyer]

Re: Re:

Vaughters on Sagan via Twitter:

"Observation: Sagan has the capacity to excel in short/medium climbs+TTs. But struggles w +250kms(relatively) Maybe change objective races?"

"The key is to avoid being the next Edvald BH. Incredible talent, but killed his motor trying to be a 250km+ guy."

"Not every talented rider can be good at that distance (if raced at high intensity) no matter how old."

"It's down to ability to metabolize fat for fuel at higher intensities. Multiple advantages over Carbs."

What a load of rubbish. Sagan of 2013 was one of the very best in the world at races over 250km. Even this year - poor by his standards - he looked strong at Milan Sanremo, put in a solid chase after 250km at Flanders and perhaps could have even done something at Roubaix without the mechanical.

If he wasn't good at metabolizing fat at high intensities, he wouldn't have consistently placed highly in monuments. His problems in the last couple of years have been partly tactical, partly because he's been so heavily marked, and partly because of the emergance of faster sprinters that can go the distance.

I'd say it's still odds-on that he'll win a monument one day. He's got three podium finishes in 250km+ races - at MSR, RVV and Amstel Gold - and has finished top 6 in most of the monuments he has entered. Ridiculous to compare him with EBH, whose best monument finish is 10th, and who rarely finished inside the top 20.

Bet he'd won a few of those monument losses if they'd been shorter. The longer the race, the more Sagan's end product diminishes. Outsprinted by Ciolek at MSR for example. Left eating dust by Cancellara at Flanders not long after.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Vaughters on Sagan via Twitter:

"Observation: Sagan has the capacity to excel in short/medium climbs+TTs. But struggles w +250kms(relatively) Maybe change objective races?"

"The key is to avoid being the next Edvald BH. Incredible talent, but killed his motor trying to be a 250km+ guy."

"Not every talented rider can be good at that distance (if raced at high intensity) no matter how old."

"It's down to ability to metabolize fat for fuel at higher intensities. Multiple advantages over Carbs."

What a load of rubbish. Sagan of 2013 was one of the very best in the world at races over 250km. Even this year - poor by his standards - he looked strong at Milan Sanremo, put in a solid chase after 250km at Flanders and perhaps could have even done something at Roubaix without the mechanical.

If he wasn't good at metabolizing fat at high intensities, he wouldn't have consistently placed highly in monuments. His problems in the last couple of years have been partly tactical, partly because he's been so heavily marked, and partly because of the emergance of faster sprinters that can go the distance.

I'd say it's still odds-on that he'll win a monument one day. He's got three podium finishes in 250km+ races - at MSR, RVV and Amstel Gold - and has finished top 6 in most of the monuments he has entered. Ridiculous to compare him with EBH, whose best monument finish is 10th, and who rarely finished inside the top 20.

Bet he'd won a few of those monument losses if they'd been shorter. The longer the race, the more Sagan's end product diminishes. Outsprinted by Ciolek at MSR for example. Left eating dust by Cancellara at Flanders not long after.

Not sure about that. Look at the shorter classics this year - E3, GW, Strade Bianche - he seemed to fade/blow-up in those even more than he did in the monuments. Keeping his sprint at the end of a tough classic may be a problem, but I don't think going over 250km is the issue for Sagan.

 

[boringboy]

Re: Re:

Great stuff from Peter. Here's some wisdom from Olega:

Daniel Friebe @friebos · 9h 9 hours ago
Tinkov to @cirogazzetta: 'If I can find a way to do it legally, I'd like to cut Sagan's salary."

and about his love of cycling:

Daniel Friebe @friebos · 9h 9 hours ago
Lastly from Tinkov: 'I don't know how long I'll stay in cycling. This isn't business, it's a toy. And kids can lose interest in their toys."

I have no time for Tinkov at all. But the toy quote shows more self awareness than I would normally give him credit for.

Could also be, kid runs out of money to have his toy...

 

[personal]

So, instead of winning classics, Sagan is getting results at stage races.
Is it me or there is some kind of change going on?

 

[Mozart92]

Re:

So, instead of winning classics, Sagan is getting results at stage races.
Is it me or there is some kind of change going on?

I don't think he can be turned into a stage race rider. He doesn't have the physique

He's more like a hybrid sprinter similar to Zabel, in fact he already took 3 consecutive green jerseys in his palmares.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Amazing performance by Sagan to win Cali. Deserves huge respect from the cycling community for his performance on the road.

Even more amazing. He achieves this feat, and then everyone talks about what he hasn't won lol.

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

No one forced Oleg to pay him that kind of money...

You are worth (materialistically) whatever you can earn. Sagan got Oleg to pay him big money, so he is worth big money.

I think Sagan is along with Bert the most marketable and valuable rider in today's peloton.

This is something I'm wondering about. I have doubts on it. You have Contador, Wiggins, Cav, Froome, Valverde, Nibali, Boonen, Quintana, Gilbert... Don't know. I've always wondered if some rider from Eastern european country is the best pick for making money, even if he's great (and somewhat controversial).

 

[Kokoso]

Actually Tinkoff complained later on Sagan delivered. Maybe Tinkoff was right to get him under pressure (something Tinkoff is heavily cristised for).

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

So, instead of winning classics, Sagan is getting results at stage races.
Is it me or there is some kind of change going on?

I don't think he can be turned into a stage race rider. He doesn't have the physique

He's more like a hybrid sprinter similar to Zabel, in fact he already took 3 consecutive green jerseys in his palmares.

I keep thinking back to his performance at Tirreno Adriatico while riding for Liquigas-Cannondale. Steep grades, riding with and beating the little climbers, essentially out performing Nibali to the point that he had to scale back his own ambitions to keep peace in the team and between himself and Vincenzo. He's a monster of a talent. .

 

[Angliru]

Re:

Actually Tinkoff complained later on Sagan delivered. Maybe Tinkoff was right to get him under pressure (something Tinkoff is heavily cristised for).

Tinkov complains alot and IMO shouldn't be given the credit when his riders win, primarily because he doesn't deserve and secondly because he will quickly give himself the credit anyway.

 

[wayahead]

Those Tinkoff comments... Openly criticize your employees via media maybe helps short term, but creates very bad culture within team and long term its foolish. And he is wrong in terms of Sagan big salary. If you want a superstar, you can either buy some (as he did with big mouth manner) or develop some talent (like Liqui or Etixx). What is he complaining for? If he overpayd Sagan under known conditions (=nobody can guarantee you monument win), if he didnt incorporated some structure to his contract (fix + bonuses), he should fire himself and not bash others. It was solely his decision to overpay Sagan.

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

Actually Tinkoff complained later on Sagan delivered. Maybe Tinkoff was right to get him under pressure (something Tinkoff is heavily cristised for).

Tinkov complains alot and IMO shouldn't be given the credit when his riders win, primarily because he doesn't deserve and secondly because he will quickly give himself the credit anyway.

Of cours he doesn't deserve it, he's Tinkoff and we hate him. Give him credit or not, those are facts. Sometimes it's good idea to critisise someone openly, look at Nibali last year and it certainly didn't lead to very bad culture in the team, as wayhead says. If Sagan was partying instead of training and not being professional, than one could argue that even lower his wage is right. If you do mistakes in work boss will taky some away, that's normal, isn't it?

 

[Netserk]

And Sagan did best in the stages I watched live. Obviously it's because I watched that he did well....

Our solar cells also produce more energy on the days I'm riding my bike. Must be because of me. After all, we all know that correlation and causation are the same.

 

[SeriousSam]

Correlation is evidence of causation, as a 20th century philosopher whose surname is the same as that of a recently frustrated swiss cyclist has pointed out

Maybe his comments really did make Sagan try harder. But there are other explanations so we cant be sure.

 

[wayahead]

Re: Re:

Sometimes it's good idea to critisise someone openly, look at Nibali last year and it certainly didn't lead to very bad culture in the team

Vino sent him the letter. AFAIK he didnt criticize him in media.

If Sagan was partying instead of training and not being professional, than one could argue that even lower his wage is right.

Is this really what Oleg said?

If you do mistakes in work boss will taky some away, that's normal, isn't it?

Depends on contract.

Worth to mention that Tinkoff bought him after sub-par 2014 spring and TdF so the risk was not unknown.

 

[Martin]

Re: Re:

If you do mistakes in work boss will taky some away, that's normal, isn't it?

The question is whether he made a mistake and if yes what kind of. If he did everything to be in the best shape for classic, he can't be much blamed, and for sure he cannot be taken for the problems with his bike on P-R. If he would have won, would Mr. Tinkov pay some extra money instead?
If they want to lower his salary, I hope he still can opt to quit. I'd rather clean shoes of riders at a true professional team then ride under some russian bumpkin.
I just feel sorry for the guys like Bodnar, whom he took them to Tinkoff with him
Why he hasn't choose other team, he can only blame himself now...

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

And Sagan did best in the stages I watched live. Obviously it's because I watched that he did well....

Our solar cells also produce more energy on the days I'm riding my bike. Must be because of me. After all, we all know that correlation and causation are the same.

Disappointed to hear you're a fair weather cyclist!!

 

[Jerkovin]

Re: Re:

Considering how tackily open Tinkov is, it's pretty clear that if Sagan was genuinely being unprofessional etc off the bike, Tinkov would have made it known long ago. Seems pretty clear that the issue is with his results.

And no, bosses don't tend to dock their employees wages four and a half months into a 3 year contract...

 

[hfer07]

When your boss hints he's looking ways to cut your salary, despite a recent great victory, and the team overall is valued as a "toy" for the owner's amusement- You don't need any excuse at all to GTFO and find a new team, in which case, Peter will receive plenty of offers coming this July - perhaps not at the same salary rate, but most of all-without the aggravation....

 

[SKSemtex]

Sagan in my opinion do not give a *** what Olga is saying as a boss. Go in one ear and out the other. But he likes challengies. And Cali was a challenge - just on edge of his physical abilities. He won this one to make himself happy not to make Olga happy. Beating Olga - and Olga was beaten - ( he must look like an idiot today with his italian interview) is small bonus. I am sure he was sleeping with a smile yesterday.

 

[SKSemtex]

I hope Olga goes bancrupt as fuc..g all Russia and Peter ends up in real team where he will have a chance to win the big ones. The TS spring team was a joke. Oh my God I realy hate that Putistan, Putin and all those jokers around him.

 

[SeriousSam]

The lack of a spring team wasn't why Sagan was dropped like a stone by stronger riders.

Also, the lack of a spring team appears to be a relict of Bjarne's All-In-For-The-Tour management of the team. Tinkov explained how he found it difficult to make the necessary modifications to turn it from Bjarne's Tour only team into Tinkov's world wide domination team. It's still a project in transition.

 

[SKSemtex]

Re:

The lack of a spring team wasn't why Sagan was dropped like a stone by stronger riders.

Did I tell somewhere it was the reason? He was not good enough. Very simple.
But with the team like this he will need a tons of luck and lot of stupid rivals in the future to win one. They allready know him and they will beat him most the time unless he has sombody strong to rely on on the end of race.

 

[Jancouver]

When your boss hints he's looking ways to cut your salary, despite a recent great victory, and the team overall is valued as a "toy" for the owner's amusement- You don't need any excuse at all to GTFO and find a new team, in which case, Peter will receive plenty of offers coming this July - perhaps not at the same salary rate, but most of all-without the aggravation....

BTW not defending Tinkov but the article was written before the California victory. Hopefully there is no clause in the contract to reduce his salary.

That being said, it is fairly easy to create new team ownership (legal entity) and void all current contracts.