Teams & Riders Peter Sagan discussion thread.

[Netserk]

Re: Re:

Not so kind words from Tom Boonen about his friend Sagan, but I guess he's partly right, Sagan just whines too much how everybody is against him.

How to stay relevant? Talk about Sagan.

Lol, you know what context it was said in? He hardly needs to 'stay relevant'. As always, some soundbites are picked out, and voilà - you have an article.

 

[Screecher]

Re: Re:

Not so kind words from Tom Boonen about his friend Sagan, but I guess he's partly right, Sagan just whines too much how everybody is against him.

How to stay relevant? Talk about Sagan.

Lol, you know what context it was said in? He hardly needs to 'stay relevant'. As always, some soundbites are picked out, and voilà - you have an article.

I like Sagan, you like Boonen. We're both a little biased here. Just forget it.

 

[LiquidCrystalDynamic]

Re: Re:

Not so kind words from Tom Boonen about his friend Sagan, but I guess he's partly right, Sagan just whines too much how everybody is against him.

How to stay relevant? Talk about Sagan.

Presumably Tom Boonen was asked for a comment, and has not been running around to different cycling publications trying to tell people what he thinks about Sagan.

I was thinking today one of the areas where I feel Cancellara's absence the most is in Sagan's racing. They were such great competitors for each other. Or more likely that Cancellara's departure just coincided with the natural development of Sagan's career and style.

 

[Netserk]

Re: Re:

Not so kind words from Tom Boonen about his friend Sagan, but I guess he's partly right, Sagan just whines too much how everybody is against him.

How to stay relevant? Talk about Sagan.

Lol, you know what context it was said in? He hardly needs to 'stay relevant'. As always, some soundbites are picked out, and voilà - you have an article.

I like Sagan, you like Boonen. We're both a little biased here. Just forget it.

So you don't know?

 

[Red Rick]

Just look at the context where it's said.

Boonen was part of a Belgian TV show to discuss the classics.

This is just his opinion and I imagine it's very well informed.

 

[Screecher]

Re: Re:

Not so kind words from Tom Boonen about his friend Sagan, but I guess he's partly right, Sagan just whines too much how everybody is against him.

How to stay relevant? Talk about Sagan.

Lol, you know what context it was said in? He hardly needs to 'stay relevant'. As always, some soundbites are picked out, and voilà - you have an article.

I like Sagan, you like Boonen. We're both a little biased here. Just forget it.

So you don't know?

I actually do. But i'm not sure who to trust. Yeah, he was asked a question, but he could have avoided bashing Sagan.

 

[Red Rick]

I don't agree that it's bashing in the first place.

 

[Screecher]

Re:

I don't agree that it's bashing in the first place.

What was it then? A friendly advice? Doesn't look like it to me.

 

[krakenKE]

Re: Re:

I have read couple of statement here and RVV thread and in comment section under the sagan-articles on main page which seems to be adopted as some mantra by antisagan camp of discussion.

1) Sagan should have closed gap to Terpstra in the moment when Terpstra attacked. It was his fault and his tactical stupidity that he did not went with Terpstra.
2)If Sagan is strongest he should have chased and finally catch Terpstra after Paterberg, when it was 1 vs 1. He could not ergo Terpstra is stronger.
3) Sagan is complaining. It is disgusting - because it means that he blame the others and is not able to admit, that he is not best - it is arrogance. He should not be complaining as he is in the same situation as Cancellara and Boonen.
4) He should shut up and find the way how to deal with his marked-man situation.

ad 1) mantra-statement:
3 vs 1 scenario 40 km to the line is THE MOST BASIC principle of “tactics” from children level of bike racing:
- first of trio attacks, isolated guy goes with him, others follow,
- when group is together second guy of trio attacks….isolated guy closes the gap again,
- then third of trio attacks ……and so on, till isolated guy have no energy left.
There is 99% chance that in the end isolated guy is spent and loses.

So if in the group, in which are 3 teams with 3 or 2 riders (QS, ASTANA, BMC) there is NO WAY that isolated guy should be the one who should close gaps - it is in light of aforementioned 3 vs 1 scenario completely *** idea. Because if the others waited for Sagan to do the work they basically put him in 3 v 1 scenario so they decided that he loses…except that ....ups...they lost too. So from tactical point of view in yesterday situation The Others SHOULD immediately, without thinking, knowing elementary principle of cycling, close Terpstra and if they did not, it was THEIR tactical failure, on the other hand Sagan MUST NOT be the one closing gaps…..if he does ti would be HIS failure!

ad 2) mantra-statement:
The gap between Terpstra and Sagan after Paterberg was cca 35-37’’ second. The distance form Paterberg to the line is cca 13 km. So we are speaking about 13 km time trial after 252 km racing in legs. Even one of best timetrialist of history Cancellara could not close gap of 13 sec to Sagan in 2016. So I guess that to close 30 second gap on 13 km after 250 km ALONE is almost impossible - at least sure for Sagan who is unfortunately not best timetrialist(maybe among the first third of peloton in short ones, 10 - 15 km). So no, fact that Sagan did not closed the gap to Terpstra AFTER Paterberg, mano a mano, is NOT a proof, that Terpstra is stronger then Sagan. It is only proof that he was strong enough to hold on the 30 sec advantage.

ad 3) mantra-statement:
Well Sagan is usualy interviewed after race and he is asked to describe what was happened there in the crucial moments of the races. And I believe that it was the EXACT description of what happened there - rest of group waited the isolated Sagan to close the gap - again, it was amateurish failure from rest of group - it is basic math - simple as that. And Sagan is also simple and pretty straightforward in his interviews - he says things as he sees them - without sugarcoating. So usually, first of all, his “complains” are answers to questions what happend. Ok, is there also complaining? I thing he is pretty pissed of because he is victory type of personality and he hate defeats - but this is only part of truth - the other part of truth is, that he is dealing with his disappointment quite good - in his after-loss interview i always hear mixture of his fighter-pittbull-temperament on one side and his joyful easy-stoic approach to life on other side - so in his answers, with the fact that he is REALLY NOT a master of public-presentation-verbality not even in his native language, we are often confronted with this confusing cocktail of his opposing feelings and opposing features of his personality. So yes, there surely is complaining ingredient but together with accepting of tactical nature of cycling and together with respect to winner and together with his stoic tommorow-is-next-race-attitude. In my opinion then, complaining is not definitory aspect of Sagan - quite opposite he strike me as a person with glimpses of quite philosophical meta-view to “ups” and “downs” of his cycling and life.

And ad Cancellara analogy- Cancellara was in the same situation during his career, true - but by all means HE WAS COMPLAINING LOUD AND CLEAR as well - but, let’s admit - it is only natural in such a situations.

ad 4) statement:
Only way how he can individually deal with this situation is somehow become masterlevel timetrialist able of long range solo rides from 50 - 40 km to the line.
Or somehow to get 3 guys to his team to be able be with him to 5 km from line to avoid 3 to 1 scenario.

This should be written in stone.

Anyway I have just found enough time to read couple last post on this thread and feel like I have some kind of deja vu. We can speculate forever if he should concentrate on Ardenes or cobbles or should have done this or that in past races and should concentrate on riding instead of whining but with Sagan you just never know what the future brings and what surprises he shows. I would only say that one should never ever underestimate Sagan in any circumstances.

Did he make any mistakes in Flanders? Do not think so. You have to accept that there is a rider who has the balls and is strong enough to finish it off and it is not possible for one to cover every single attack from the group. In this case it was a very strong rider from the strongest team with 2 other equally strong teammates backing him from behind. Maybe he should have been more aggressive on Kwaremont but would have that been enough? Probably not.

Can he win Roubaix this year? I don't think so. I just don't see any scenario in which he can win. But underestimating Sagan in Roubaix is the worst mistake every rider or cycling fan can make.

Should he ride Ardenes instead of cobbles? I ask this question to myself every single LBL edition after Gerrans triumph. I am afraid he will never ride LBL so we will never know...

Does he have a chance in Innsbruck or is he targeting it? I don't know but he would be crazy if he was. He has already managed what no one did before. He will have another chances to get his 4th win in Yorkshire and probably in next years too. So why bother yourself to target a race you have zero chance to win? The last ramp is too long for him and he will never be able to catch Nibali in the descent in fact he will probably not be in front after previous climbs even if they ride them conservatively. And long range attack on this course would be suicide and pointless. But as I said with Sagan one can never know

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

I actually do. But i'm not sure who to trust. Yeah, he was asked a question, but he could have avoided bashing Sagan.

Maybe hypocritical whinging annoys him, like it does a lot of people. In which case he probably didn't need too much of an invitation to stick the boot in.

Not the first time that the mask has slipped p a little from Sagan's very carefully manufactured image.

 

[sajmones]

Re: Re:

I actually do. But i'm not sure who to trust. Yeah, he was asked a question, but he could have avoided bashing Sagan.

Maybe hypocritical whinging annoys him, like it does a lot of people. In which case he probably didn't need too much of an invitation to stick the boot in.

Not the first time that the mask has slipped p a little from Sagan's very carefully manufactured image.

Not the first time you are trying to make some villain out of Sagan. Maybe some of your favourite riders are crooked characters and you dont even know about it.

But among other things, Boonen also said that Sagan is a great guy and that they are friends.

Moreover Boonen said on his instagram account: "i hope he wins Roubaix this weekend. He is a true champ. And like so many times the quotes that are beeing used are out of context."

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

I actually do. But i'm not sure who to trust. Yeah, he was asked a question, but he could have avoided bashing Sagan.

Maybe hypocritical whinging annoys him, like it does a lot of people. In which case he probably didn't need too much of an invitation to stick the boot in.

Not the first time that the mask has slipped p a little from Sagan's very carefully manufactured image.

Not the first time you are trying to make some villain out of Sagan. Maybe some of your favourite riders are crooked characters and you dont even know about it.

But among other things, Boonen also said that Sagan is a great guy and that they are friends.

Moreover Boonen said on his instagram account: "i hope he wins Roubaix this weekend. He is a true champ. And like so many times the quotes that are beeing used are out of context."

Firstly I'm honoured that you felt my comment worthy of your first post after five years of lurking here. Secondly, i'm sure that Boonen and Sagan are good friends and that Boonen respects Sagan (they are on Team Specialized together after all). But, if anything, that makes the criticism even more pertinent and more reliable - because it means that Boonen probably has no malicious agenda against Sagan that may be driving his criticism.

 

[Blanco]

Re: Re:

Not so kind words from Tom Boonen about his friend Sagan, but I guess he's partly right, Sagan just whines too much how everybody is against him.

How to stay relevant? Talk about Sagan.

Lol, you know what context it was said in? He hardly needs to 'stay relevant'. As always, some soundbites are picked out, and voilà - you have an article.

I like Sagan, you like Boonen. We're both a little biased here. Just forget it.

I actually do. But i'm not sure who to trust. Yeah, he was asked a question, but he could have avoided bashing Sagan.

And why would he? He gave a straight answer, he expressed his thoughts. I like Sagan too, but he bloody annoys me with this comments every time he loses the race. Just shut up and ride, that's the best advice he could get, and Boonen like a true friend and way more experienced rider gave it to him.

 

[sajmones]

Re: Re:

Firstly I'm honoured that you felt my comment worthy of your first post after five years of lurking here. Secondly, i'm sure that Boonen and Sagan are good friends and that Boonen respects Sagan (they are on Team Specialized together after all). But, if anything, that makes the criticism even more pertinent and more reliable - because it means that Boonen probably has no malicious agenda against Sagan that may be driving his criticism.

i had better things to do than to be lurking here for 5 years i can sense certain sarcasm in your first sentence
but basically you are right about worthy comment.

i am not saying that Sagan is not whinging or that Boonen is not right about it. but i can remember Boonens whinging in his last Roubaix about Degenkolbs ride that day. but i wouldnt put too much weight on some media talks or cyclists whining in general. what provoked me is your comment about mask that has slipped and that kind of things. i thought that you meant some character issues so i wanted to point out that Boonen didnt mean such things.

 

[hrotha]

Sagan fanboys might be the worst ones.

 

[Netserk]

Have you been called that yet?

 

[wayahead]

A lot of people here agree Sagan is whining nevertheless in this specific situation it could be simply good push to make some allies ahead of PR. The fact he's whining doesn't mean he's not right in his assessment. If non-packers wants to win, they have to play it differently. Most of the posters here says the very same.

 

[Nirvana]

Also Andrei Tchmil said that Sagan should shut his mouth and stop criticizing other riders. I'm watching the last "Sui pedali magazine" where he was interviewed and when the presentator asked him about Sagan he litarally said "non mi piace", he said that he's a rider that talk a lot and win a few and he likes the opposite, riders that win a lot and talk a few. And added that Sagan should start to win by himself without asking cooperation from other riders.

 

[SKSemtex]

I can say the even die-hard fans of Sagan are not happy about him "whining" after each lost race. I would prefer he does not say a word but it is probably not possible.

However unless is something lost in translation I find Boonen comments quite harsh on Sagan and can be hardly taken as friendly advice.

"A lack of cooperation? He is always on someone's wheel," Boonen said of Sagan, unafraid to criticise the world champion.

It is the word "always" that bothers me little.
OK let's forget the numerous races 2012-2016 he animated or tried to animate. But since when is the riding in the peloton "being in someone's wheel".

Please enlight me. When was the last time Sagan did not cooperate in the viable break with a fair share of his work and get the free ride to the end? I remember an only time when in order to achieve his first win in TDF he did not want to join Cance in the probably winnable break, as the best sprinter in remaining bunch he decided that he has the better chance in a bunch sprint. I think it was hard to blame him and in spite of that Cance had been whining about it loud and clear for another 2 years.

And please do not tell me any *** about DOHA where Belgians had their numbers.

To oppose I have a hard time remember when it was the last time he was not doing the majority of the work in the viable break. (probably Yorkshire stage in TDF won by Nibali ).

Boonen added: "I don't think Sagan really should talk about a lack of cooperation. He is the one who always starts to drag. He looks to see what is going on, and then he comes forward once and starts waving his hand. If you do that you have to keep your mouth shut."

This statement I do not understand at all. It is probably my English or wrong translation.

If I refer it to the situation at the beginning of the chase of Nibali and Terpstra, Sagan made the pull (drag ?) on the front, he checked and nobody followed he waved his hand. Please let me know how many more pulls and check, or how long should one TT to be entitled to complain about the lack of cooperation in this kind of situation when the race is lost for everybody?

Boonen, who won the Tour of Flanders three times and Paris-Roubaix four times, added: "He always tries to benefit from the work of other teams. There is nothing wrong with that, but then you do not have to say afterwards 'they do not work with me'."
I think every rider in peloton always tried to benefit from work of other teams. From Sagan to last domestic of an amateur team. So basically no complaints about the lack of cooperation are allowed.

I personally think Boonen is still quite bitter about the Doha and he has not get over it yet.

Last but not least talking about Sagan´s hypocrisy after the last PR whining towards Degenkolb is hypocrisy as well.

I am quite sad because I respect Boonen a lot, he is a very respectable person with a lot of influence and a lot of people who do not watch the races so closely as some of the people here do, might start to think after all those "always" statements that Sagan is not the deserved winner but "wheelsucker" who were gifted all those wins by hard work of other teams.

P.S. I do not know how is it for native English speaking but for me "keep the mouth shut" is quite a strong offense. It is hard to be compared with he should be quiet or he should not complain. But it is probably only bad Slovak - English translation

EDIT. I forgot about the TDF 2016 stage 11 - Sagan really benefited here from Froome Thomas work

 

[SKSemtex]

Re:

Also Andrei Tchmil said that Sagan should shut his mouth and stop criticizing other riders. I'm watching the last "Sui pedali magazine" where he was interviewed and when the presentator asked him about Sagan he litarally said "non mi piace", he said that he's a rider that talk a lot and win a few and he likes the opposite, riders that win a lot and talk a few. And added that Sagan should start to win by himself without asking cooperation from other riders.

Question is. How can one win only by himself unless he is top TT. To the certain point, you need to ride in the peloton and use the help of other riders.

To the point, he talks too much and wins a few I summarize his after RVV interview. And it is really not so much whining in it. Isn´t it.

"Quick-Step are a good team because they have a lot of riders on a good level, so they can play with a few cards. Quick-Step did another very nice race, and other teams were missing a bit in terms of collaboration.

"I'm not the only rider to beat," Sagan continued. "There are 200 of us in the race. They made a mistake, I think, because that way Quick-Step will go and win all the races."

"It's very hard to race in my position in the group," he said. "When other riders don't wake up, it's going to be like this."

"I'm very happy. I felt well. I did the maximum I could, so I'm happy with my performance. As for how the race went, it was a race like any other," he said.

"I'm very happy about my performance and also how the race finished. You know, a lot of things I couldn't change. I am just glad I did my maximum."

"Oh well," he shrugged. "The season still continues."

 

[Flamin]

Oh god. What Boonen said was completely harmless. He's brilliant to watch on tv, it's like he's talking with some mates about cycling with a few beers. Super spontaneous, heart on the tongue and often just joking around. And he provides great insight in the peloton with all his experience.

Whoever calls this 'bashing' or 'criticizing' has no idea what he's talking about.

 

[SKSemtex]

Re:

Oh god. What Boonen said was completely harmless. He's brilliant to watch on tv, it's like he's talking with some mates about cycling with a few beers. Super spontaneous, heart on the tongue and often just joking around. And he provides great insight in the peloton with all his experience.

Whoever calls this 'bashing' or 'criticizing' has no idea what he's talking about.

I trust you on that. I wish I understand Flemish and can watch races in Sporza while he is commenting.
Unfortunately we can only read what is written here on CN and I am sure the most is lost in translation.
I have absolutely no hard feelings against him , just trying to comment his statements.
It is just hard for me to listen from this legend that Sagan is "always" on someone wheel".

 

[hulkhogansknees]

Doesn't seem like the man himself is too bothered by Boonen's comments: https://www.instagram.com/p/BhMiQHzDZw6/

 

[wayahead]

There's no need to analyze every sigle word of Boonen or Tchmil, the message is important. And the message is that although he (Sagan) is factually mostly right and his position in peloton is difficult, he should stop talking about it or change the way he's expressing himself. Because it's not classy and cycling fans don't like complaining. It's a tough sport attracting people who admire tough athletes. People didn't like Cancellara's whining either, nor Boonen's.

 

[wayahead]

One more remark - when did he began to complain? I think it started massively after his MSR '17 defeat. He was strong as bull but lost anyway. Immediatelly after the race he adressed harsh words in his native language to his buddies in sprint, then incident with Terpstra followed, war of words with Steppers, tactical mistake on Kapelmuur, he became distracted. After MSR '17 he stopped to race so agressively then before (maybe with exception of P-R), he tries to be more "smart" even when strong, complains about lack of cooperation. So who to blame? Kwiatkowski!