Pope Benedict XVI resigns

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Oh I'm sure they'll use that kind of arguments if they ever feel forced to accept homosexuality, but that won't make them any better arguments.

Projecting modern views into 2000-year-old texts is intellectually dishonest. I especially loved when he justified his defence of homosexual relationships and marriages saying "Paul never addressed the issue of loving homosexual relationships itself". Well, d'uh! Isn't he the one telling us we have to read the Bible in its historical context? Apparently that is only to be done whenever it fits his agenda.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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The bible says "When a man lies with another man, he must be stoned" (Leviticus ??:??). Thus Washington State legalized gay marriage and marijuana at the same time...
 
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A cartoon calendar of Berlin-based editorial "Espresso" has prophecized the precise date of Benedict XVI's retirement. The drawing by Katharina Greve shows the pontifex, on February 10th, as he celebrates a lotto-win.

"Holy moly", the text reads, "Tomorrow I quit".


topelement.jpg
 
Come to think of it, Descender, I'm really not in the mood for an in-depth debate, so if you haven't done your Reasoned Decision yet, no need to spend any time on it. But if you've already put any effort into it, go ahead - I'm morally obliged to participate in the debate if that's the case. :p

I do think he's projecting his own 21st century views, but I also think his argument sort of works if you get rid of the projection too.
 
gregod said:
maybe i missed something. what do you mean? suffer? what are you agreeing with?
As to suffer, I don't want him to be in pain the last days of his life. That's all I meant.

As to agreeing with Hrotha, his first post on how the concentration of the Church could be moved forward, such as allowing priests to marry, women to be priests, and a more balanced approach to homosexuality. Many more issues that I feel the Church is still a century behind common sense.

But that's just my opinion.
 
May 21, 2010
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rhubroma said:
Before you go one, -snip-


It's a little late for that now isn't it?!

Might I just point out that had your "Roman friends" fully embraced El Gabal and his appointed high priest and earthly representative, myself, back in the day, you wouldn't be in this mess! I could have nipped that little Christianity thing right in the bud. And all I asked for in return was a little worship ... a little ...respect.

But nooooooo!!

Instead I got dragged through the streets and thrown into the Tiber!!

Alas, I should probably take some of the blame ...

But I won't! Because it's all their fault!!
 
Elagabalus said:
It's a little late for that now isn't it?!

Might I just point out that had your "Roman friends" fully embraced El Gabal and his appointed high priest and earthly representative, myself, back in the day, you wouldn't be in this mess! I could have nipped that little Christianity thing right in the bud. And all I asked for in return was a little worship ... a little ...respect.

But nooooooo!!

Instead I got dragged through the streets and thrown into the Tiber!!

Alas, I should probably take some of the blame ...

But I won't! Because it's all their fault!!

That's because your boy tainted the imperial court with all those shameless oriental perversions, and he was fond of dressing like a woman with it! :eek:

On the other hand Syrio-Bablonian sun god worship eventually went mainstream, albeit under a new supernatural fad, with all its hidden rites, centered upon the Christos.

So actually it's not their fault, it was just marketed better.
 
hrotha said:
Come to think of it, Descender, I'm really not in the mood for an in-depth debate, so if you haven't done your Reasoned Decision yet, no need to spend any time on it. But if you've already put any effort into it, go ahead - I'm morally obliged to participate in the debate if that's the case. :p

I do think he's projecting his own 21st century views, but I also think his argument sort of works if you get rid of the projection too.

I haven't done my Reasoned Decision (lol) yet, but I will do it, sorry. :D Feel free to ignore it though, I'm sure I'll find other platforms to spread my message.
 
May 21, 2010
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rhubroma said:
That's because your boy tainted the imperial court with all those shameless oriental perversions, and he was fond of dressing like a woman with it! :eek:...

Ah ... yes, the Historia Augusta. The absolute pinnacle of historical scholarship and probably edited by the Ancient World's equivalent of Sally Jenkins!. Those hacks! Lies, all lies ...
 
Oct 30, 2011
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I'm not really sure how to react to this news. I cannot decide whether it is, in effect, inconsequential, structurally inconsequential yet highly personally relevant to many or an extremely important world event. Even after I've resolved that, I'm not sure what position I should take on it. On the one hand, he is not the church, so I don't feel I should hold him responsible for the policies and actions of the church, yet on the other by virtue of his position he takes on a lot of responsibility for those policies and actions.

I am not a religious person, and I have never been very good friends with a devout Catholic (to my knowledge). Certainly not a devout Catholic with whom I have had discussion about religion. I find myself, at this point, very aware that I have little conception of how a devout Catholic feels, emotionally towards the Pope. If one of the ones here would be prepared to describe that for me, I would be very grateful.

I suppose deeper into this the two big questions are: why has this happened and what is it going to change? Despite the speculation regarding an impeding scandal breaking, I feel it's unlikely. The fact of the matter is that we can keep a very ill person alive for a lot longer than we used to be able to, and that the job of Pope involved a lot of traveling - possibly more than it ever has. As for what it's going to change, I myself doubt it will change anything - the views of a Pope are, almost by definition, reflective of the views of the cardinals, and they've not changed much recently. In my view, this should be seen as merely indicative of the world's technological progress and the gradual modernisation of the church - nothing more.
 
Caruut said:
I'm not really sure how to react to this news. I cannot decide whether it is, in effect, inconsequential, structurally inconsequential yet highly personally relevant to many or an extremely important world event. Even after I've resolved that, I'm not sure what position I should take on it. On the one hand, he is not the church, so I don't feel I should hold him responsible for the policies and actions of the church, yet on the other by virtue of his position he takes on a lot of responsibility for those policies and actions.

I am not a religious person, and I have never been very good friends with a devout Catholic (to my knowledge). Certainly not a devout Catholic with whom I have had discussion about religion. I find myself, at this point, very aware that I have little conception of how a devout Catholic feels, emotionally towards the Pope. If one of the ones here would be prepared to describe that for me, I would be very grateful.

I suppose deeper into this the two big questions are: why has this happened and what is it going to change? Despite the speculation regarding an impeding scandal breaking, I feel it's unlikely. The fact of the matter is that we can keep a very ill person alive for a lot longer than we used to be able to, and that the job of Pope involved a lot of traveling - possibly more than it ever has. As for what it's going to change, I myself doubt it will change anything - the views of a Pope are, almost by definition, reflective of the views of the cardinals, and they've not changed much recently. In my view, this should be seen as merely indicative of the world's technological progress and the gradual modernisation of the church - nothing more.

It's a tricky one Caruut and as a non catholic probably a discussion best staying out of, maybe you to?. There are most likely many on here with a deeply Catholic faith. I'll dip in as a Mod but won't proffer any view other than moderator.
 
Elagabalus said:
Ah ... yes, the Historia Augusta. The absolute pinnacle of historical scholarship and probably edited by the Ancient World's equivalent of Sally Jenkins!. Those hacks! Lies, all lies ...

Naw, the Historia Augusta is a great read. It may not be that reliable, though it isn't completely false either. However we still have Herodian and Cassius Dio to provide general contours, however approximate, though upon what else can we draw our conclusions?
 
Jun 22, 2009
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Mad Elephant Man said:
The Roman Catholic Church's stand that homosexuality is a sin/wrong is about the only thing right about it.

If you seriously believe this and aren't just trolling, I suspect you'll find yourself in a minority of one.:rolleyes:

I referred to the HBO film 'Mea Maxima Culpa' a few pages ago. I have now watched it, and would strongly urge anyone else even remotely interested in this topic, or in Ratzinger's part in the suppression of all mention of the church's pedophile problem, to also watch. It is freely available as a torrent.
 
These are my closing thoughts on this issue.

At any rate the pope says it’s because of his age and the fatigue, though fundamentally he abdicates before modernity. He’s simply not capable of taking control of this world, to make the word of God sufficiently heard to Christianity and to his Church for those who believe such a voice exists. Naturally this has caused much internal division within the Church hierarchy, which has made the Vatican an increasingly hostile place to work. The Roman Church is divided and the abdication of Ratzinger must be read as a personal admission of failure, in not having succeeded in governing the struggle within the Curia (College of Cardinals) – a struggle which will be punctually reassumed in the Sistine Chapel during the imminent conclave.

Another thing to consider is that when speaking of the Pope, one has to recall that the man holding the office is both high priest of a religion, though also absolute sovereign of a state, Vatican City, which until 1861 included most of central Italy. The title Ponitfex Maximus (a title inherited from the ancient Roman emperors and not Peter) thus covers both roles, each requiring an enormous commitment. Joseph Ratzinger, who has lived practically his entire life within the Church and Vatican State, was clearly unsuitable to carry out the political aspect of his office. His many gaffes were a symptom of this: from the highly publicized speech at Ratisbon to the disagreeable comment on condoms. Another indication was the initial uncertainty with which he addressed the pedophilia scandal. He later addressed it vigorously, but only after an embarrassing silence. Another deficiency was in not being able to unravel the internal knots, with which his Church has been kept bound from reform and modernization. Not only have there been at stake issues such as priesthood celibacy, female ordination, but also other affairs of exceptional gravity like the Vatican bank scandal: for the past eight months it has been without a leader, following the “firing” of Gotti Tedeschi who wanted to impose complete transparency upon that troubled institution. Today the pontifical government (Curia – another ancient Roman borrowing meaning the hall where the Senate met) is bitterly divided, the role of the Secretary of State, Cardinal Bertone, awkward and cumbersome and, in so far as it seems, paralyzing for this pope.

In the meantime the seminaries are empty, the churches are ever less frequented, above all by the young (i.e. most parishioners are old), such that for the first time the Catholic Church stands present before an implacable secularization on this scale against which it is incapable of reacting. Before these immense problems and given his infirmness, Ratzinger has decided to step down.

The history of the papacy has always been one fraught with political controversy. For hundreds and thousands of years the Church-institution suffocated its pastoral mission and promoted wars, inquisitions, corruption, simony. Here one isn’t merely talking about episodes, but a historical continuum the linchpin of which has always been a quest for further temporal power. Remember the Crusades? The Investiture wars? The suppression of so called heretics? The Avignon exile? The alliances with despots, the nepotism, the dynasties founded by popes of the Colonna, Orsini, Caetani, Piccolomini, Farnese, della Rovere, Borgia and Borghese families? With the official end of the Roman Church’s temporal power in 1861, these problems should have gotten better, though it didn’t work out that way. Pius IX at the time invented the dogma of papal infallibility. Subsequently Pius XI made an accord with Mussolini, his successor Pius XII got embroiled in the Nazi-Fascist dilemma, the Church during the Cold War tolerated socialist tragedies at the hands of bloody dictators just to look after its own interests and in the name of ideology, and so forth.

These problems hence have moved through time, going back through the centuries and forward to the present with seamless fluidity; which, under the current circumstances of modernity, are proving formidable and potentially lethal for the Roman Church. A Roman Church, furthermore, that has opted to cling to old dogmas and rigid doctrinal concerns, instead of promoting the simple teachings of community wellbeing and peace among nations, divorced of untoward ideology and power.
 
Christian said:
The bible says "When a man lies with another man, he must be stoned" (Leviticus ??:??). Thus Washington State legalized gay marriage and marijuana at the same time...

Eshnar? Off-topic talk.

This thread has nothing to do with the Torah (Judaism), homosexuality nor the Protestant USA...


Mad Elephant Man said:
The Roman Catholic Church's stand that homosexuality is a sin/wrong is about the only thing right about it.

More or less agree. Only the Counciliarist (Post-Vatican II) Church.


rhubroma said:
Remember the Crusades?

And? What's the problem with them?

rhubroma said:
his successor Pius XII got embroiled in the Nazi-Fascist dilemma, the Church during the Cold War tolerated socialist tragedies at the hands of bloody dictators just to look after its own interests and in the name of ideology, and so forth.

wow. That's revisionnism ! :rolleyes:
 
Jun 22, 2009
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Thank you for that excellent post, Dr. Rhub! I doff my hat and wave it in your general direction.

The more I think about this, the more likely it seems that there is considerably more here than meets the eye, though I'm under no illusion that the truth will ever come out. There certainly are interesting, even compelling, parallels to be drawn between the omerta that existed in cycling about doping, and the Vatican's omerta about pedophile and sexually abusive priests, which was judiciously preserved by Ratzinger in his previous position.
 
Amsterhammer said:
Thank you for that excellent post, Dr. Rhub! I doff my hat and wave it in your general direction.

The more I think about this, the more likely it seems that there is considerably more here than meets the eye, though I'm under no illusion that the truth will ever come out. There certainly are interesting, even compelling, parallels to be drawn between the omerta that existed in cycling about doping, and the Vatican's omerta about pedophile and sexually abusive priests, which was judiciously preserved by Ratzinger in his previous position.

Omertà wasn't a mafia invention, as you correctly perceived. ;)
 
Jan 27, 2013
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Amsterhammer said:
Thank you for that excellent post, Dr. Rhub! I doff my hat and wave it in your general direction.

The more I think about this, the more likely it seems that there is considerably more here than meets the eye, though I'm under no illusion that the truth will ever come out. There certainly are interesting, even compelling, parallels to be drawn between the omerta that existed in cycling about doping, and the Vatican's omerta about pedophile and sexually abusive priests, which was judiciously preserved by Ratzinger in his previous position.



Pope Benedict resigned to avoid arrest, seizure of church wealth by Easter
http://itccs.org/2013/02/13/pope-be...id-arrest-seizure-of-church-wealth-by-easter/
 
Jan 27, 2013
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Amsterhammer said:
Already pulled by HBO. You'll have to d/l via torrent.

I'm watching it at this very moment. Must be country specific.

I refreshed the page when it was over, it's pulled.
 
Sep 22, 2012
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Amsterhammer said:
If you seriously believe this and aren't just trolling, I suspect you'll find yourself in a minority of one.:rolleyes:

I referred to the HBO film 'Mea Maxima Culpa' a few pages ago. I have now watched it, and would strongly urge anyone else even remotely interested in this topic, or in Ratzinger's part in the suppression of all mention of the church's pedophile problem, to also watch. It is freely available as a torrent.

What? I said nothing about pedophilia. I am certainly no friend of the Roman Catholic Church or Pope Benedict. I am not sure how what you said here relates to what I said, sorry.