Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fair?

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

What is the UCI penalty to get someone from another team get some energy gels at yout team car in the last ten K of a mountaintopfinish because you are bonking?

I dont like this penalty but Nieve should always be around Porte if you have GC ambitions and not aiming for a Viviani win while the break is still 1 minute 30 or so ahead with 6K to go. Cant have them both, a cycling genius like Brailsford should know this.

 

[SafeBet]

Re:

I love how so many here have it as a foregone conclusion that Porte was going to take the pink jersey in the tt while Contador will put 2 minutes into Aru, they match eachother in the mountains, the race is over, bla bla bla.

When was the last time 3 seperate riders all performed in a gt exactly as fans expected them too?

Vuelta 2011?

 

[SkyTears]

i hope ASO will buy this race and transform it in to a decent one

every year same controversy *** because partisanship

 

[deValtos]

The rule as detailed by the UCI can easily be interpreted in a number of ways, depending on your mood.

"Non-regulation assistance to a rider of another team" is the rule and then a penalty is applied to "each rider concerned."

Clarke provided the assistance, porte didn't provide any assistance. So you could say Clarke is the only rider concerned. Or both Porte and Clarke. Either way Clarke takes a penalty.

I wonder if this gets interpreted differently for Aru.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re:

i hope ASO will buy this race and transform it in to a decent one

every year same controversy **** because partisanship

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[Christian]

Re: Re:

What I would be interested to know though, is: why is this a rule? What is the reasoning behind it? To prevent several teams "ganging up" and thus creating unfair advantages or maybe even safety concerns (different material on different teams)?

Would Clarke have stopped and given his wheel to Contador or Aru?

That's the reason for it. In a stage like today's it mattered little (but why wasn't there a Sky bike or rider to hand to change?) so 2' penalty seems overkill when he's already lost time by bad luck, but say that situation plays out in a mountain stage when a rider who is losing time receives mechanical assistance from another team, and is then able to limit their losses and defend a GC lead.

So when Nieve paced Contador up Ventoux in 2013, they should have got a 2 minute penalty as well, right?

True, Contador used to pull this shït all the time with Euskaltel

When? I hope you don't mean the 2 stages with Samuel Sanchez in 2011 when they both pulled equally- in fact Contador pulled more, because they found themselves alone trying to stay away from the chasers? On one of those stages Andy Uran Evans Frank also took turns pulling for eachother, should they have been penalized too?

Granted, Hitch - "all the time" is an exaggeration, but there seem to have been quite a few of these incidences. The one I'm thinking of concretely is, if my memory serves me right, from the legendary Galibier stage. You could see Sanchez and Contador avidly discussing tactics in the chasing group - of course they could have been talking about the weather, too - but judging from the context, the most likely explanation is that Sanchez asked an isolated Contador if he should put his Euskaltel team to work for him. Even though they didn't end up doing that cause Contador himself just didn't have the form to keep up with the best, it seems like a clear example of what I called "creating an unfair advantage by ganging up" - Contador was isolated yet all of a sudden he got a whole new batch of shiny orange team mates. Basically it was like everyone was riding on teams of 9 and Contador had a team of 18.

I could be mixing up stages here, forgive me if I do, but I think this was on the legendary Galibier stage. Now I know what you're gonna say - what about Dries Devenyns? Indeed Devenyns - god bless him - in an act of selfless heroism helped pull for Andy in the valley, but it was a spontaneous personal decision, whereas the Euskaltel-Saxo Bank block had more of a secretely organized monopoly feel to it.

Of course this is all legal and these are purely my subjective appreciations, but it does illustrate to some degree why this specific rule that we are currently discussing exists - generally, teams ganging up creates unfair advantages.

 

[sir fly]

Re: Re:

It won't surprise me if the decision gets drawn back by the start of tomorrow's stage.
It has served its PR purpose and really is leaving bitter taste. No one wants a stain on his image.

They absolutely should NOT withdraw the penalty. That would be the worst thing they could do.

At the end of the day, a rule was broken, and it has been publicized and attention drawn to it. If they quietly withdraw the penalty by the morning, it sends the message that actually, you CAN break the rules, and moaning about it loud enough will resolve things in your favour. Clarke and Porte chose to break the rules (although they may not have known they were breaking the rules they chose to exchange wheels) and now have to live with the outcome of it; the jury have chosen to apply the rules harshly and now must be seen to stand by their decision.

There is a difference between a jury being seen as lenient, and a jury being seen as weak. Retracting the penalty will not make them seem lenient (a lenient jury may have proffered a smaller penalty or warnings or whatever rather than applying the penalty the rule calls for in the circumstances), but will make them seem weak.

Brailsford is trying not to lose face by posturing to the jury about the "spirit of the law"; they now need to not lose face by giving in to his demands when the rejection of the decision by the fans and teams is by no means universal.

The sense and arguments are there, but you're forgetting we're talking about a cycling organization.
Organization where the abuse of power is a standard, not an exception.

 

[arvc40]

Re: Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fai

Just watched stage. Porte struggling behind his team mates in the chase at the end.

 

[T-Nielsen]

Re:

i hope ASO will buy this race and transform it in to a decent one

every year same controversy **** because partisanship

Lets try one more time shall we. UCI is NOT the same as the Giro.

NOT is a way to express negation.

 

[BigMac]

Re: Re:

i hope ASO will buy this race and transform it in to a decent one

every year same controversy **** because partisanship

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Libertine as you never read him.

 

[SkyTears]

Re: Re:

i hope ASO will buy this race and transform it in to a decent one

every year same controversy **** because partisanship

PFWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
HAHAH!!!!

HSHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA!!!!!!!!

HA!!!

HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAA!!!!

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URH... HURRRR... HURRRGH...

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you seem pressed , take a chill pill

yes, imo Giro is the shitiest GT because organizers influence the outcome to much, every year.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

Anyone who says Porte (or Clarke, or Sky or Brailsford) "should have known" the rules is speaking from a position of complete ignorance of the scale and complexity of the UCI's regulations and does not understand that not one rider in the peloton knows them all. Or, given that this has been pointed out repeatedly, the alternative is that people making that argument are being actively disingenuous.

They claim to be the most rigorous advanced team in the peloton and insult other teams by baselessly implying those other teams are full of idiots who do nothing to prepare for races. Well, then they should know the rules.

Would have been far more efficient than special pillows.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re:

i hope ASO will buy this race and transform it in to a decent one

every year same controversy **** because partisanship

You sound silly. Stop the whining, really please.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

Those rules (Porte 2', Contador DSQ) should not be applied as long as there was no intention of breaking the rule

Several people are talking about "the spirit of the law". What was that rule intended to prevent, if not exactly what happened today?

I get why it's a rule there just needs to be some common sense applied. Situation like today a fine and a reprimand is probably more appropriate. A rider giving a friend on another team his bike and his friend proceeds to take significant time on his gc rivals, that's when you give time penalties or dq's.

How is that different than today? Had Porte not been assisted by another team's rider he certainly would've lost more than than the initial 47 seconds due primarily to his team's negligence and incompentence. He benefited unfairly and was penalized for it. They didn't add the 2 minutes to the time already lost they simply applied the time penalty as was stipulated. Why is that a problem especially since Porte publicly admits to the illegal assistance that he received?

 

[the sceptic]

I love the irony in this thread. Skyfans crying because the UCI is following the rules.

Remember when Dawg got busted for the TUE? what was the bot argument back then? oh right.. the UCI are just following the rules.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

Anyone who says Porte (or Clarke, or Sky or Brailsford) "should have known" the rules is speaking from a position of complete ignorance of the scale and complexity of the UCI's regulations and does not understand that not one rider in the peloton knows them all. Or, given that this has been pointed out repeatedly, the alternative is that people making that argument are being actively disingenuous.

Well that rule is pretty clear, sanction is pretty clear, there;s nothing shady or gray about this rule. If Sir Dave Brailsford and his team Sky didn't know about this one specifically, then they are bunch of amateurs and they deserve this penalty completely!

No matter how many times you repeat the same stupidity, it will not become less stupid. Once more: not one rider in the pro peloton knows all of the UCI's regulations. If not knowing every regulation makes you an amateur, there is not one single professional rider in the sport.

This is not like learning the rules to Monopoly before you play.

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

i hope ASO will buy this race and transform it in to a decent one

every year same controversy **** because partisanship

PFWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
HAHAH!!!!

HSHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA!!!!!!!!

HA!!!

HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAA!!!!

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

URH... HURRRR... HURRRGH...

PAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAA!!!!!

you seem pressed , take a chill pill

yes, imo Giro is the shitiest GT because organizers influence the outcome to much, every year.

Or because Sky never wins it?!

 

[LeindersGains]

SkyTears is one of the better trolls in here. ASO, hahaha!

 

[SkyTears]

Re: Re:

i hope ASO will buy this race and transform it in to a decent one

every year same controversy **** because partisanship

PFWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
HAHAH!!!!

HSHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA!!!!!!!!

HA!!!

HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAA!!!!

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

URH... HURRRR... HURRRGH...

PAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAA!!!!!

you seem pressed , take a chill pill

yes, imo Giro is the shitiest GT because organizers influence the outcome to much, every year.

Or because Sky never wins it?!

Sky never won Vuelta also

every year Giro is full of drama created by organizers

and stop the "it's UCI not RCS" *** , everyone knows jury is puppeted by race organization.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Would Clarke have stopped and given his wheel to Contador or Aru?

That's the reason for it. In a stage like today's it mattered little (but why wasn't there a Sky bike or rider to hand to change?) so 2' penalty seems overkill when he's already lost time by bad luck, but say that situation plays out in a mountain stage when a rider who is losing time receives mechanical assistance from another team, and is then able to limit their losses and defend a GC lead.

So when Nieve paced Contador up Ventoux in 2013, they should have got a 2 minute penalty as well, right?

True, Contador used to pull this shït all the time with Euskaltel

When? I hope you don't mean the 2 stages with Samuel Sanchez in 2011 when they both pulled equally- in fact Contador pulled more, because they found themselves alone trying to stay away from the chasers? On one of those stages Andy Uran Evans Frank also took turns pulling for eachother, should they have been penalized too?

Granted, Hitch - "all the time" is an exaggeration, but there seem to have been quite a few of these incidences. The one I'm thinking of concretely is, if my memory serves me right, from the legendary Galibier stage. You could see Sanchez and Contador avidly discussing tactics in the chasing group - of course they could have been talking about the weather, too - but judging from the context, the most likely explanation is that Sanchez asked an isolated Contador if he should put his Euskaltel team to work for him. Even though they didn't end up doing that cause Contador himself just didn't have the form to keep up with the best, it seems like a clear example of what I called "creating an unfair advantage by ganging up" - Contador was isolated yet all of a sudden he got a whole new batch of shiny orange team mates. Basically it was like everyone was riding on teams of 9 and Contador had a team of 18.

I could be mixing up stages here, forgive me if I do, but I think this was on the legendary Galibier stage. Now I know what you're gonna say - what about Dries Devenyns? Indeed Devenyns - god bless him - in an act of selfless heroism helped pull for Andy in the valley, but it was a spontaneous personal decision, whereas the Euskaltel-Saxo Bank block had more of a secretely organized monopoly feel to it.

Of course this is all legal and these are purely my subjective appreciations, but it does illustrate to some degree why this specific rule that we are currently discussing exists - generally, teams ganging up creates unfair advantages.

I don't remember this at all. My recolection is that after Andy attacked no one in the peloton chased. Either way both Contador and Sanchez were quite a bit down on Andy in gc anyway, so it wasn't up to them to chase but up to Voeckler and Evans. Eventually Evans started chasing not Euskaltel. Sanchez got dropped early. Contador got dropped later.

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

Anyone who says Porte (or Clarke, or Sky or Brailsford) "should have known" the rules is speaking from a position of complete ignorance of the scale and complexity of the UCI's regulations and does not understand that not one rider in the peloton knows them all. Or, given that this has been pointed out repeatedly, the alternative is that people making that argument are being actively disingenuous.

Well that rule is pretty clear, sanction is pretty clear, there;s nothing shady or gray about this rule. If Sir Dave Brailsford and his team Sky didn't know about this one specifically, then they are bunch of amateurs and they deserve this penalty completely!

No matter how many times you repeat the same stupidity, it will not become less stupid. Once more: not one rider in the pro peloton knows all of the UCI's regulations. If not knowing every regulation makes you an amateur, there is not one single professional rider in the sport.

This is not like learning the rules to Monopoly before you play.

I'm not talking about the riders, I'm talking about his TEAM, they NEED to know the rules, or you think not? I'm aware that no rider knows all the rules, but for what purpose serves his DS and his team car?!

 

[Metabolol]

Re:

I love how so many here have it as a foregone conclusion that Porte was going to take the pink jersey in the tt while Contador will put 2 minutes into Aru, they match eachother in the mountains, the race is over, bla bla bla.

When was the last time 3 seperate riders all performed in a gt exactly as fans expected them too?

Indeed but it seems like some teams almost approached the race the same way. Like I said the other day why didn't Sky do more after Contador's crash?

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

[quote="

They claim to be the most rigorous advanced team in the peloton and insult other teams by baselessly implying those other teams are full of idiots who do nothing to prepare for races. Well, then they should know the rules.

Would have been far more efficient than special pillows.

But you don't really think that this is possible or reasonable - given that no rider on any team knows all of the rules or ever will. It's just another way of saying "Sky talk a lot of annoying, self-aggrandising bollocks, so I'm glad they are getting a shoeing". I even agree with the first part. They do talk a lot of annoying, self-aggrandising bollocks. But I'd prefer to see them beaten on the road, rather than on a commissaire's clipboard.

 

[T-Nielsen]

Re: Re:

i hope ASO will buy this race and transform it in to a decent one

every year same controversy **** because partisanship

PFWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
HAHAH!!!!

HSHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA!!!!!!!!

HA!!!

HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAA!!!!

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

URH... HURRRR... HURRRGH...

PAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAA!!!!!

you seem pressed , take a chill pill

yes, imo Giro is the shitiest GT because organizers influence the outcome to much, every year.

Or because Sky never wins it?!

Sky never won Vuelta also

every year Giro is full of drama created by organizers

and stop the "it's UCI not RCS" *** , everyone knows jury is puppeted by race organization.

Really? I had the impression that half an hour ago you did not have a ******* clue who they were.

 

[sir fly]

I'm starting to believe that RCS' business strategy is tabloid one.
Every single year we have controversies in their major race.