Re: Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fai
Had Porte been a different rider, from a different nation (Columbia?) or a different team, would that other rider offered a wheel? I think not. That is why the rule exists.
Had Porte been a different rider, from a different nation (Columbia?) or a different team, would that other rider offered a wheel? I think not. That is why the rule exists.
- Mar 10, 2009
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Re:
First did you see there is a Sky rider in the picture? where is his wheel. what sport is collision OK? I know this rule has been in the books more than 30 years I know of. It is in Commissaire 101 if you like.
Why don't you know the rules if you follow the sport. Only food and water may be offered to riders from other teams. this comes under sporting fraud. It is like having 2 teams working for him. I am surprised however the Orica rider did not get a penalty too. Maybe he did. Perhaps if the officials did not get a dozen tweets showing them the proof he might have gotten away with it? We once DQ's a rider for hanging onto a car. he came with his DS and yelled at us in German for 2 or 3 minutes until I showed him the press photo of him holding onto another teams car on a climb. he shut up immediately and his DS slapped him on the head swearing in German about what a moron he was to appeal. we even got a thank you after the race. What if Tom Brady threw a ball to an opponent instead of letting a little air out. I get a sense you see the difference there. The Commissaires let a lot of stuff slide when a rider has a mechanical but there is a right way and wrong way. that Orica rider had other ways to help his opponent much less obvious than taking the wheel off his bike and giving it to a Sky rider who had a teammate there. He is in the picture.
There are lots of occasions where the Commissaire clearly have allowed a team who's bikes get stolen take equipment from other teams but not in the middle of a race.
I might also guess there would be a lot of Spaniards posting about this if he did not get that penalty because the Europeans do read the rules and know them. there was no wiggle room for the Officials either the penalty is prescribed in section 12 and general rules.
I personally think you are protesting as a fan of Porte.
BigMac said:
First did you see there is a Sky rider in the picture? where is his wheel. what sport is collision OK? I know this rule has been in the books more than 30 years I know of. It is in Commissaire 101 if you like.
Why don't you know the rules if you follow the sport. Only food and water may be offered to riders from other teams. this comes under sporting fraud. It is like having 2 teams working for him. I am surprised however the Orica rider did not get a penalty too. Maybe he did. Perhaps if the officials did not get a dozen tweets showing them the proof he might have gotten away with it? We once DQ's a rider for hanging onto a car. he came with his DS and yelled at us in German for 2 or 3 minutes until I showed him the press photo of him holding onto another teams car on a climb. he shut up immediately and his DS slapped him on the head swearing in German about what a moron he was to appeal. we even got a thank you after the race. What if Tom Brady threw a ball to an opponent instead of letting a little air out. I get a sense you see the difference there. The Commissaires let a lot of stuff slide when a rider has a mechanical but there is a right way and wrong way. that Orica rider had other ways to help his opponent much less obvious than taking the wheel off his bike and giving it to a Sky rider who had a teammate there. He is in the picture.
There are lots of occasions where the Commissaire clearly have allowed a team who's bikes get stolen take equipment from other teams but not in the middle of a race.
I might also guess there would be a lot of Spaniards posting about this if he did not get that penalty because the Europeans do read the rules and know them. there was no wiggle room for the Officials either the penalty is prescribed in section 12 and general rules.
I personally think you are protesting as a fan of Porte.
- Dec 30, 2009
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Re: Re:
I can't disagree with any of this except that a DS in this modern version of the sport should know about the basic rules. And there is no getting away from the fact that it was a very basic mistake. It was a very high profile breach of the rules and there was no way that the powers could let it go in light of that. I personally don't agree with it, but the law is the law is the law. SKY are in a corner over this one, from which they can't bite. Someone should ask Brailsford why they let ORG change a wheel for an opponent whilst a SKY team mate looked on without giving up his bike..Zinoviev Letter said:
Re:
Get a grip....!!!!
It is UCI rules and not Giro rules and if you take a look at the name under UCI then you get an other person who have nothing with Italy to do or is a Spaniard.
More Sky fault is that there where a Sky rider next to them but he did not give Porte his wheel Why??
If Sky don´t know a rule which is old then Sky is the fools and not every other, blame Porte and the team mates that decided not to use one of there own wheels and Porte got what he deserved just like every other rider who have done the same.
Who will you blame for Sky keeping there strong guys up with Viviani instead of helping Porte??
Who will you blame for bad tactics keeping Porte long behind his team mates when cycling behind a car so he gets dropped?? Even a amateur know better then that!!
Who will you blame if and when Porte cant follow the other uphill, the Italians or the rest of the world??
Sky panicked from the first moment, Porte made every fault he could, his team mattes did the same so don´t blame other for that.
Today SKY is the
SkyTears said:
Get a grip....!!!!
It is UCI rules and not Giro rules and if you take a look at the name under UCI then you get an other person who have nothing with Italy to do or is a Spaniard.
More Sky fault is that there where a Sky rider next to them but he did not give Porte his wheel Why??
If Sky don´t know a rule which is old then Sky is the fools and not every other, blame Porte and the team mates that decided not to use one of there own wheels and Porte got what he deserved just like every other rider who have done the same.
Who will you blame for Sky keeping there strong guys up with Viviani instead of helping Porte??
Who will you blame for bad tactics keeping Porte long behind his team mates when cycling behind a car so he gets dropped?? Even a amateur know better then that!!
Who will you blame if and when Porte cant follow the other uphill, the Italians or the rest of the world??
Sky panicked from the first moment, Porte made every fault he could, his team mattes did the same so don´t blame other for that.
Today SKY is the
- Jul 19, 2010
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Re: Re:
First and foremost, they should have known better. Besides what's on earth that Richie accepted the wheel, when his team mate was standing in front of him?? Where's the Sky car? This is very black and white in my opinion. The rule clearly stated that. It's not like the Quintana episode with neutralized flag. In hindsight why the rule exist? well, clearly if Porte didn't get wheel from Clarke, he might have to wait for his wheel. If his team mate give him the wheel, then he has to race back alone. So there's a possibility of advantage having other rider from other team gave him the wheel. It's just so obvious. Orica could have helped him by pacing him back to the peloton. Additional two fire power on the top of Richie's team mate is better. There's a better way to help other riders. I think it's just a dumb mistake! Sorry, no one likes it, but it's clearly stated on the rule book. Other wise Valverde's chances to reach TDF won't evaporated since he always loose time due to mechanical at the wrong time.
ferryman said:
First and foremost, they should have known better. Besides what's on earth that Richie accepted the wheel, when his team mate was standing in front of him?? Where's the Sky car? This is very black and white in my opinion. The rule clearly stated that. It's not like the Quintana episode with neutralized flag. In hindsight why the rule exist? well, clearly if Porte didn't get wheel from Clarke, he might have to wait for his wheel. If his team mate give him the wheel, then he has to race back alone. So there's a possibility of advantage having other rider from other team gave him the wheel. It's just so obvious. Orica could have helped him by pacing him back to the peloton. Additional two fire power on the top of Richie's team mate is better. There's a better way to help other riders. I think it's just a dumb mistake! Sorry, no one likes it, but it's clearly stated on the rule book. Other wise Valverde's chances to reach TDF won't evaporated since he always loose time due to mechanical at the wrong time.
Re: Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fai
They knew the rules so bad luck. As for Porte, I'm undecided - I want to see him win as an Australian, but lose because he's riding for an English (British?) team helping out the likes of Sir F-ing Bradley.
They knew the rules so bad luck. As for Porte, I'm undecided - I want to see him win as an Australian, but lose because he's riding for an English (British?) team helping out the likes of Sir F-ing Bradley.
- Mar 10, 2009
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For reference, here are all the relevant rules:
PART 2 ROAD RACES
Rights and duties of riders
2.3.012 All riders may render each other such minor services as lending or exchanging food, drink, spanners or accessories.
The lending or exchanging of tubular tyres or bicycles and waiting for a rider who has been dropped or involved in an accident shall be permitted only amongst riders of the same team. The pushing of one rider by another shall in all cases be forbidden, on pain of disqualification.
Technical support
2.3.029 Riders may only receive technical support from the technical personnel of their team or from one of the neutral support cars or else from the broom wagon.
In the event of any change of bicycle during a race, the bicycle abandoned by the rider must in all cases be recovered either by vehicles accompanying the race, team vehicles, a neutral service vehicle or by the sag-wagon.
Mechanical assistance at fixed locations on the course is limited to wheel changes only except for races on a circuit where bike changes can be made in the authorized zones.
Any mechanical assistance which fails to meet the obligations above will result in the disqualification of the rider either immediately, or after the race if proven by any means and verified by the commissaires (article 12.1.001).
PART 12 DISCIPLINE AND PROCEDURES
Chapter DISCIPLINE
§ 1 Infringements
Proof
12.1.001 Infringements of the UCI Regulations may be demonstrated by any form of proof.
8. Non-regulation assistance to a rider of another team
Each rider concerned:
8.2. Stage Race 200 per offence and 2’, 5’ and 10’ penalty and elimination + 200 from 4th offence
Any other licence-holder: 200
PART 2 ROAD RACES
Rights and duties of riders
2.3.012 All riders may render each other such minor services as lending or exchanging food, drink, spanners or accessories.
The lending or exchanging of tubular tyres or bicycles and waiting for a rider who has been dropped or involved in an accident shall be permitted only amongst riders of the same team. The pushing of one rider by another shall in all cases be forbidden, on pain of disqualification.
Technical support
2.3.029 Riders may only receive technical support from the technical personnel of their team or from one of the neutral support cars or else from the broom wagon.
In the event of any change of bicycle during a race, the bicycle abandoned by the rider must in all cases be recovered either by vehicles accompanying the race, team vehicles, a neutral service vehicle or by the sag-wagon.
Mechanical assistance at fixed locations on the course is limited to wheel changes only except for races on a circuit where bike changes can be made in the authorized zones.
Any mechanical assistance which fails to meet the obligations above will result in the disqualification of the rider either immediately, or after the race if proven by any means and verified by the commissaires (article 12.1.001).
PART 12 DISCIPLINE AND PROCEDURES
Chapter DISCIPLINE
§ 1 Infringements
Proof
12.1.001 Infringements of the UCI Regulations may be demonstrated by any form of proof.
8. Non-regulation assistance to a rider of another team
Each rider concerned:
8.2. Stage Race 200 per offence and 2’, 5’ and 10’ penalty and elimination + 200 from 4th offence
Any other licence-holder: 200
Re:
Alex,
what are the rules for Paris Roubaix and Tour of Flanders where you see all the fans standing with spare wheels? Is that only allowed at P-R? Is that considered a "Neutral" service?
Alex Simmons/RST said:
Alex,
what are the rules for Paris Roubaix and Tour of Flanders where you see all the fans standing with spare wheels? Is that only allowed at P-R? Is that considered a "Neutral" service?
- May 13, 2009
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Re: Re:
This is really what it comes down to. This practice - intra-team equipment swapping DURING the race - is totally verboten! I can understand that some riders - even WT riders - might not know the rule exists, but even then, that's the fault of their teams and DS's and teammates for not intervening to ensure equipment is not accepted from a rival.
I've seen this happen 3-4 other times in UCI events of various rankings, and the commissaires never would tolerate it - but they also didn't have to issue penalties b/c the riders in question (all of whom were GC-leaders) simply refused to accept service from their compatriots and waited for either a teammate or team mechanic to reach them.
In fact, I even have a picture that Mike Fraysse took of Pedro Pablo Perez shouting down one of the Cuba B-team riders who had stopped and desired to provide him w/ his wheel to replace PPP's flat. Pedro Pablo waited for service from the team car (w/ commissaire watching, btw!) and then proceeded to chase and regained the field. PPP knew not to take a wheel from another Cuban in his own national tour (a race he was leading against stiff foreign opposition, so hardly a cake-walk), but Porte didn't know not to take a wheel from another Australian in the Giro? Blame that on SKY then.
Master50 said:
This is really what it comes down to. This practice - intra-team equipment swapping DURING the race - is totally verboten! I can understand that some riders - even WT riders - might not know the rule exists, but even then, that's the fault of their teams and DS's and teammates for not intervening to ensure equipment is not accepted from a rival.
I've seen this happen 3-4 other times in UCI events of various rankings, and the commissaires never would tolerate it - but they also didn't have to issue penalties b/c the riders in question (all of whom were GC-leaders) simply refused to accept service from their compatriots and waited for either a teammate or team mechanic to reach them.
In fact, I even have a picture that Mike Fraysse took of Pedro Pablo Perez shouting down one of the Cuba B-team riders who had stopped and desired to provide him w/ his wheel to replace PPP's flat. Pedro Pablo waited for service from the team car (w/ commissaire watching, btw!) and then proceeded to chase and regained the field. PPP knew not to take a wheel from another Cuban in his own national tour (a race he was leading against stiff foreign opposition, so hardly a cake-walk), but Porte didn't know not to take a wheel from another Australian in the Giro? Blame that on SKY then.
- Apr 3, 2009
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Re: Re:
I was referring to those doing the blaming (as indicated by the bolding) not Cioni and/or Eisel.
JRanton said:red_flanders said:el_angliru said:A Danish TV reporter talked to a Sky DS immediately after the stage (and before we knew of the two minute penalty). The Sky DS said the stage went according to Sky's plan. There were no issues. Sky had half their team with Viviani in order to get the stage win in case the breakaway got caught.
I don't know why so many are blaiming all the other teams, or the UCI, or the Jury for the outcome of this incident. When Sky don't care for their GC rider - why should anyone else? The 2 minute penalty is harsh and terrible for the race. But this is still a pretty light incident compared to what we've seen happen over the years when GT podium favourites crash out (Contador, Froome in TdF 2014, for instance. Not to mention Ocana or Beloki and many other greats in the past). Contador also lost 1:20 in stage 1 of the 2011 Tour because he was caught behind a crash 8 km from the finish (and Contador was particularly unlucky because his rivals were caught behind another crash which, however, happened within the 3 km zone, and therefore didn't give them any time deficits! Bertie crossed the finish line before Andy on stage 1 but still lost 1:14 to him!). Such things happens and are terrible for the race.
But hopefully today's result will force Porte to attack a bit earlier on the hilly or mountain stages. So this can still be a great giro - even for Porte. And his attacks don't have to be as spectacular as Andy's or Alberto's in the 2011 Tour in order to make this a great giro
Because they don't really have a terribly deep understanding of racing or race tactics. And many are just lashing out because the guy they were rooting for took it on the chin. First with bad luck, then stupidity and lack of attention to detail.
Cioni and Eisel must have ridden 30+ grand tours between them. So it's nothing to do with a lack of understanding of race tactics or racing. Viviani is there as a plan b for Sky, something which Sky have been criticised for not having in the past.
I was referring to those doing the blaming (as indicated by the bolding) not Cioni and/or Eisel.
It is a rule and it was broken so RP gets the consequence.
That being said, it is a stupid rule. Someone said that it might keep teams from forming alliances, but there are many alliances in all races. I have heard about riders getting time penalties for 'illegal assistance' before but only in rare cases, and only in smaller races. Kind of like how once in while a rider will be a fined for pacing in the caravan.
Tough break for RP and for the Giro!
That being said, it is a stupid rule. Someone said that it might keep teams from forming alliances, but there are many alliances in all races. I have heard about riders getting time penalties for 'illegal assistance' before but only in rare cases, and only in smaller races. Kind of like how once in while a rider will be a fined for pacing in the caravan.
Tough break for RP and for the Giro!
Ok I've only been following the sport for a couple years. I don't know all the history or protocals. When I saw the wheel change my first thought was- If I'm paying the salary of Clarke, yes I know enough that he has no chance to win, to race for my team I would be pissed if he gave such help to another squad. Orica sponsors deserve to have thier riders compete against other teams. Porte's team should have gave assistance and they didn't.
- Aug 6, 2010
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Re: Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fai
Alas, as a Porte fan, I have to say that this is correct.
Although I think the act from Clarke himself was a great show of sportsmanship.
racing_like_scalded_cats said:
Alas, as a Porte fan, I have to say that this is correct.
Although I think the act from Clarke himself was a great show of sportsmanship.
Katusha may hope that J.Rodriguez doesn't get a flat in the Tour because Sky will not wait for him after this case
I'm quite bemused by all the drama on these forums. Yes, the timing and context of the penalty is at odds but it can hardly be termed an injustice. The rules are quite clear and easy to remember.
In fact, of all teams I'm surprised that Sky and Porte made this mistake! If I recall in 2013, Porte dragged Froome up a very difficult MTF leaving behind the other top GC riders. After a while, Froome dropped Porte and attacked. But then Froome completely cracked. To avoid heavy loss he knowingly took an energy bar from another rider and incurred a 30 second penalty. He had enough cushion to absorb this loss. In the meantime, Porte showed up, gave him another energy bar (?) and pulled him to the finish.
Needless to say, all this happening to the same protagonists is quite bizarre.
In fact, of all teams I'm surprised that Sky and Porte made this mistake! If I recall in 2013, Porte dragged Froome up a very difficult MTF leaving behind the other top GC riders. After a while, Froome dropped Porte and attacked. But then Froome completely cracked. To avoid heavy loss he knowingly took an energy bar from another rider and incurred a 30 second penalty. He had enough cushion to absorb this loss. In the meantime, Porte showed up, gave him another energy bar (?) and pulled him to the finish.
Needless to say, all this happening to the same protagonists is quite bizarre.
- Mar 10, 2009
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Re: Re:
It would be a breach of rule 2.3.029:
2.3.029 Riders may only receive technical support from the technical personnel of their team or from one of the neutral support cars or else from the broom wagon.
but rules need also be accompanied by a corresponding sanction for breach, and this is where it gets a bit messy as there isn't anything listed in the sanctions about such a scenario, while there is wrt such a wheel/bike change from another team.
Funnily enough though, there is a sanction for a spectator pushing a rider.
In my view, it would make more sense to have sanctions categorised, e.g. 5 or perhaps 10 sanction levels for minor offences through to the most serious breaches. Sanction categories can have discretionary and non-discretionary components, and also provide for harsher penalties for repeat offences.
That way each rule can stipulate which category or categories of sanction may applies for a breach.
Sanctions types include:
- warnings
- relegations
- time or point penalties
- fines
- forfeiture or reduction of any prizes or race income
- prevention from starting / attending
- elimination / disqualification / exclusion from event
- suspensions that apply following the offence
Various sanction levels would then apply to fines, time/point penalties, reduction of prize monies or race incomes, length of suspensions.
Then there can be mandatory and discretionary elements to each. Mandatory to protect the commissaire from any potential for or suggestion of bias, but discretionary elements as well due to the specific circumstances that apply since out on the roads who the hell can possibly know what might happen.
Jancouver said:
It would be a breach of rule 2.3.029:
2.3.029 Riders may only receive technical support from the technical personnel of their team or from one of the neutral support cars or else from the broom wagon.
but rules need also be accompanied by a corresponding sanction for breach, and this is where it gets a bit messy as there isn't anything listed in the sanctions about such a scenario, while there is wrt such a wheel/bike change from another team.
Funnily enough though, there is a sanction for a spectator pushing a rider.
In my view, it would make more sense to have sanctions categorised, e.g. 5 or perhaps 10 sanction levels for minor offences through to the most serious breaches. Sanction categories can have discretionary and non-discretionary components, and also provide for harsher penalties for repeat offences.
That way each rule can stipulate which category or categories of sanction may applies for a breach.
Sanctions types include:
- warnings
- relegations
- time or point penalties
- fines
- forfeiture or reduction of any prizes or race income
- prevention from starting / attending
- elimination / disqualification / exclusion from event
- suspensions that apply following the offence
Various sanction levels would then apply to fines, time/point penalties, reduction of prize monies or race incomes, length of suspensions.
Then there can be mandatory and discretionary elements to each. Mandatory to protect the commissaire from any potential for or suggestion of bias, but discretionary elements as well due to the specific circumstances that apply since out on the roads who the hell can possibly know what might happen.
- Aug 3, 2009
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Re: Re:
Most of the people standing beside the road with wheels, especially at pave' to asphalt transitions, etc. are actually team mechanics spaced out along the course. They will leap-frog ahead of the race and try to be situated where they can do a wheel swap (soft tires, to replace a neutral wheel, etc). In that instance, they would qualify as fixed locations for wheel changes only.
20+ teams with three or four mechanics and soingeurs constantly rotating ahead of the race can look like an army of spectators. It's more obvious who they are when you see them handing up bottles.
Jancouver said:
Most of the people standing beside the road with wheels, especially at pave' to asphalt transitions, etc. are actually team mechanics spaced out along the course. They will leap-frog ahead of the race and try to be situated where they can do a wheel swap (soft tires, to replace a neutral wheel, etc). In that instance, they would qualify as fixed locations for wheel changes only.
20+ teams with three or four mechanics and soingeurs constantly rotating ahead of the race can look like an army of spectators. It's more obvious who they are when you see them handing up bottles.
What I am baffled by is why it is perfectly OK for rivals to share food or drinks or for one team to hand up food to another teams rider. Or for two teams to actively collaborate to eliminate a third but it is not OK to help mechanically. Total double standards.
- Jul 7, 2009
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The problem is that is that so many rules are continuesly broken and the UCI does nothing (motorpacing, cycling on the paths next to the cobbles, doping(!!!!) etc.) Then they give a strict 2 minute penalty for what is basically fair play.
It's ok to hang on to or drift behind your team car, but you can't get a wheel from an opponent and the try to catch up by pedaling? wtf??
The Giro 2015 is ruined because of this *** from the UCI.
Cycling is as poorly organized as the television broadcast of the individual time trials.
It's ok to hang on to or drift behind your team car, but you can't get a wheel from an opponent and the try to catch up by pedaling? wtf??
The Giro 2015 is ruined because of this *** from the UCI.
Cycling is as poorly organized as the television broadcast of the individual time trials.
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