Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fair?

[PeterB]

Actually, I don't see logical reason why such rule should exist. If we start with a premise that the sport of cycling wishes to determine its winners purely based on sporting effort, then the rules of sport should try to avoid that other factors have effect on the result - in particular crashes, punctures, and other mechanicals. By allowing that a rider is able to minimise negative effect of such a misfortune by accepting mechanical help from a rider of another team, the goal of reducing effect of non-sporting factors would be achieved, wouldn't it?

And for those who claim that the rule is meant to prevent instances that Clarke helps Porte, but would not help Contador in the same situation, which means Porte has unfair advantage - well, is this really such a significant unfairness that it outweights the benefit such help brings in order to determine winner mainly based on sporting effort as described above? When you think of it, there is multitude of other situations which also create more favourable treatment to some riders compared to others - e.g. Porte may puncture the next day and have neutral support car right behind him vs. Contador punctures the day after and has to wait minutes for support car.

What I mean is that the sport is normally trying to minimise effect of incidents on the result by neutral support, by team cars following riders, so why do they have reason to prohibit another method of assistance that is other team rider's help? Especially if, as many have noted, it creates such a great example of sportmanship.

 

[del1962]

While I find the incident very frustrating and am annoyed by some of the more gloating and vitriolic comments by some posters on reflection Porte and Sky only have themselves to blame, so it is time for Porte to bounce back at get a Podium place (even second) which is well within his reach still.

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

But where does it say you cannot change bikes?

Bolded type?

Mechanical assistance at fixed locations on the course

 

[del1962]

Re: Re:

But where does it say you cannot change bikes?

Bolded type?

This is about Bike changes by the side of the road not from the team car

 

[willbick]

The rule seems fair enough, its the severity of the punishment (effectively putting him out of the GC) that is ridiculous for a basically minor offence.

 

[del1962]

Just a question but is stopping on the right side of the road the same in races in all countries or does it depend on which side of the road is used in the country in question?

 

[Jagartrott]

Re:

Actually, I don't see logical reason why such rule should exist.

You cannot think of a reason, really? Like, wealthy teams paying less wealthy teams off to help them out, so that the importance of money becomes even more apparent? The rule is quite logical actually, and it has existed for decades. That riders are unaware of this, is really their and their teams fault.

 

[veji11]

Re:

Actually, I don't see logical reason why such rule should exist. If we start with a premise that the sport of cycling wishes to determine its winners purely based on sporting effort, then the rules of sport should try to avoid that other factors have effect on the result - in particular crashes, punctures, and other mechanicals. By allowing that a rider is able to minimise negative effect of such a misfortune by accepting mechanical help from a rider of another team, the goal of reducing effect of non-sporting factors would be achieved, wouldn't it?

And for those who claim that the rule is meant to prevent instances that Clarke helps Porte, but would not help Contador in the same situation, which means Porte has unfair advantage - well, is this really such a significant unfairness that it outweights the benefit such help brings in order to determine winner mainly based on sporting effort as described above? When you think of it, there is multitude of other situations which also create more favourable treatment to some riders compared to others - e.g. Porte may puncture the next day and have neutral support car right behind him vs. Contador punctures the day after and has to wait minutes for support car.

What I mean is that the sport is normally trying to minimise effect of incidents on the result by neutral support, by team cars following riders, so why do they have reason to prohibit another method of assistance that is other team rider's help? Especially if, as many have noted, it creates such a great example of sportmanship.

I stop you right at the bolded sentence.. This isn't how it works. If it worked like this we would just put all riders on home bikes with SRMs and give the highest wattage the money prize. Countless stronger riders were beaten by coalitions in the past (like on a good third of classics until the late 80s really), countless riders were defeated by circumstances, a flat, an accident, etc...

No really if that is the premise you are basing yourself on, you have completely misread how pro road cycling works !

 

[veji11]

Re: Re:

Actually, I don't see logical reason why such rule should exist.

You cannot think of a reason, really? Like, wealthy teams paying less wealthy teams off to help them out, so that the importance of money becomes even more apparent? The rule is quite logical actually, and it has existed for decades. That riders are unaware of this, is really their and their teams fault.

Romain Sicard almost lost the tour de l'avenir in 2009 against TVG because of it : he had 2'01 advance in the standings when he did the same thing with a guy from France A team (he was in France B) and he was penalized 2 minutes, ended up winning just by 1"... This rule is rarely used because such a blatant mistake is rarely made, but the rule is there.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

Katusha may hope that J.Rodriguez doesn't get a flat in the Tour because Sky will not wait for him after this case

They would have otherwise ?

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

Katusha may hope that J.Rodriguez doesn't get a flat in the Tour because Sky will not wait for him after this case

They would have otherwise ?

Yes, to lend him a wheel.

 

[movingtarget]

Maybe from now on we will see less leniency for extended drafting behind team cars, hanging onto team cars etc as well. Fat chance. I remember one memorable instance of drafting in an individual TT and no action was taken. Apply the rules but be consistent. Yes the rule seems harsh but I can't believe that no one from Sky, riders or management picked up on it and then to top it off, Sky drop Porte and leave him for dead instead of making sure he was with them, making his chase even harder. Obviously a rule that seemingly was not that well known will now never be forgotten at least for the rest of this season.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Yes I do.

Fascinating.
Would you also tell me what was in the mind of the organisers when they planned a totally unnecessary 60 kms ITT? It's all a conspiracy to make Aru win, sure.

Indeed. The organizers don't care much about who wins, it's only a matter of audience to them and a lot of sponsors are not italians.

If I had to guess, the organizers probably would like contador to win. He's the biggest name in the sport. Him doing the giro rather than the tour and winning is good for the giro.

They've always loved him. I remember the 2012 giro presentation was half a celebration of "el matador" as they called him and half a route reveal. They even had a contador tracker for every race he did that year.

 

[willbick]

Should be a 10 second penalty

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

But where does it say you cannot change bikes?

Bolded type?

The way I read it it says that on fixed locations (like in Paris roubaix for example, after a cobbles section) you can only change wheels not bikes . You can get a bike from the car at any point I believe.

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

Yes I do.

Fascinating.
Would you also tell me what was in the mind of the organisers when they planned a totally unnecessary 60 kms ITT? It's all a conspiracy to make Aru win, sure.

Aru is praying for a flood and a snowstorm on the day of the TT. The stage will be cancelled. Porte and Uran go to the pub for the day.

 

[TheGreenMonkey]

Re: Re:

i hope ASO will buy this race and transform it in to a decent one

every year same controversy **** because partisanship

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URH... HURRRR... HURRRGH...

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I would like to nominate this post as post of the year. It seems a totally our of character yet totally appropriate response to the post being replied too.

 

[PeterB]

Re: Re:

Actually, I don't see logical reason why such rule should exist.

You cannot think of a reason, really? Like, wealthy teams paying less wealthy teams off to help them out, so that the importance of money becomes even more apparent? The rule is quite logical actually, and it has existed for decades. That riders are unaware of this, is really their and their teams fault.

Look at my premise - we don't want incidents such as flat tyres decide race results. And you need mechanical help from another team simply only as a consequence of sufferring e.g. flat tyre. The difference created between rich teams being theoretically able to obtain more assistance from other teams' riders compared to poorer teams is in my opinion negligible, from the perspective of the greater objective (ref. the premise)).

 

[doperhopper]

well, once upon a time when men were real men (Tourmalet 1913), they could not accept any external help so strictly that when a guy crashed, broke his frame, walked 10 km downhill to the nearest village and repaired it himself in the blacksmith workshop he was penalised because a little boy helped him!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eug%C3%A8ne_Christophe

 

[PeterB]

Re: Re:

I stop you right at the bolded sentence.. This isn't how it works. If it worked like this we would just put all riders on home bikes with SRMs and give the highest wattage the money prize. Countless stronger riders were beaten by coalitions in the past (like on a good third of classics until the late 80s really), countless riders were defeated by circumstances, a flat, an accident, etc...

No really if that is the premise you are basing yourself on, you have completely misread how pro road cycling works !

I am afraid you talk about something completely different. Nobody wants Contador to win over Porte because of Porte's puncture. But it is okay if Contador wins over Porte because of faster riding a bike. Including if he is helped by various racing situations, such as benefiting from another rider pulling.

It is undeniable that riders were defeated by punctures etc. in the past, but is this the right way to be defeated?

 

[veji11]

Re: Re:

I stop you right at the bolded sentence.. This isn't how it works. If it worked like this we would just put all riders on home bikes with SRMs and give the highest wattage the money prize. Countless stronger riders were beaten by coalitions in the past (like on a good third of classics until the late 80s really), countless riders were defeated by circumstances, a flat, an accident, etc...

No really if that is the premise you are basing yourself on, you have completely misread how pro road cycling works !

I am afraid you talk about something completely different. Nobody wants Contador to win over Porte because of Porte's puncture. But it is okay if Contador wins over Porte because of faster riding a bike. Including if he is helped by various racing situations, such as benefiting from another rider pulling.

It is undeniable that riders were defeated by punctures etc. in the past, but is this the right way to be defeated?

There are many right or wrong ways to win or to lose, yet in the end, the legend of cycling is that they happen and you have to live with it : Ocana falls in a ditch, Fignon's saddle sore and the triathlete position allow Lemond to win for 8 seconds, Schlek's chain just pops, etc etc etc.. Some victories are hollistic à la Merckx obliterating the field, some seem like the result of a coincidence, the wind going that way not the other, a tiny shard of glass precisely there on the road on that day at that hour.

Unpredictability is the glory of this sport, it's pulse. That's why raod cycling is so rich, has so much texture : It doesn't take place on a sterile environment, a pitch or court or track, a place bound and contained, protected and regulated. It takes place on the road, in that open air, in the rain and the sleet, under the blistering sun, on that perfectly smooth rolling road or that quasi gravel goat path, people are their shouting and encouraging, sometimes insulting and spitting, the cyclist remains an adventurer because he ventures on the road, on the open space. Sometimes epic adventures are derailed by the tiniest of incidents. This is part of road cycling. Take it away and the sport dies, it isn't the same anymore.

 

[fatsprintking]

But Porte is not being defeated by a puncture, he is being defeated by an interpretation of a written rule that seems to be in direct contravention of so many of the so called unwritten rules that define cycling. An inspired moment of camaraderie, overcome by officiousness. That's the world I guess.

 

[sunnyIce]

Re: Re:

This is part of road cycling. Take it away and the sport dies, it isn't the same anymore



I'm guessing one of you is American and the other is European. I will leave it at that

 

[the sceptic]

Re: Re:

I stop you right at the bolded sentence.. This isn't how it works. If it worked like this we would just put all riders on home bikes with SRMs and give the highest wattage the money prize. Countless stronger riders were beaten by coalitions in the past (like on a good third of classics until the late 80s really), countless riders were defeated by circumstances, a flat, an accident, etc...

No really if that is the premise you are basing yourself on, you have completely misread how pro road cycling works !

I am afraid you talk about something completely different. Nobody wants Contador to win over Porte because of Porte's puncture. But it is okay if Contador wins over Porte because of faster riding a bike. Including if he is helped by various racing situations, such as benefiting from another rider pulling.

It is undeniable that riders were defeated by punctures etc. in the past, but is this the right way to be defeated?

Sometimes random things will happen that has nothing to do with racing. Deal with it.

Should Porte throw himself into a ditch to discolate his shoulder too? Should the giro be cancelled and wait until Pozzovivo heals to restart?

Unpredictability and randomness is part of every sport. If the best rider/team always won, why would anyone bother watching?

and besides, Porte lost 2 minute because sky are idiots, not because of the puncture

 

[coppino]

I think (without any proof) that the jury would not have penalised Porte and Clarke if pictures of a clear infingment of the rules weren't made public on the internet. This forced them to enforce the law, even if they knew they would have been criticised by some, because if they didn't, they would have been criticised by others, and, more, their decision would also have been wrong, according to UCI rules. Think it was bad luck for everybody that this happened and clearly a very poor choice by Clarke (primariliy). I can understand Porte, who is anxious in that moment, but Clarke... The biggest sportmanship is riding at one's best. This was not at case of sportmanship, but a case of great friendship which is something very different.