Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fair?

[Tangled Tango]

Re:

Anyone who says Porte (or Clarke, or Sky or Brailsford) "should have known" the rules is speaking from a position of complete ignorance of the scale and complexity of the UCI's regulations and does not understand that not one rider in the peloton knows them all. Or, given that this has been pointed out repeatedly, the alternative is that people making that argument are being actively disingenuous.

I don´t agree at all. It is true that the UCI rule book is full of obscure rules that are unknown to most of the racers and team management/coaches etc., but this rule is definitely not one of those. For more than a few years grand tours have had neutral support vehicles, both water bottles, but specific to this instance; wheels offered by Mavic. This rule has been in effect for many decades in one form or another. That is why riders had to carry their own tubes & tires back in the day. Sure the riders don´t know all the rules, but most of them know the important ones, which I would venture includes this particular one.

 

[fatsprintking]

Yeah and there are time limits on stages but we are willing to waver these when it is clear that the spirit of the "rule" has not been contravened. What is the spirit of this rule and was it contravened?

 

[pastronef]

Re: Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fai

https://www.twitter.com/TheRaceRadio/status/600770517671366658

Race RAdio's comment

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

Yeah and there are time limits on stages but we are willing to waver these when it is clear that the spirit of the "rule" has not been contravened. What is the spirit of this rule and was it contravened?

The "discretionary calls" with time limits generally comes into play when there is a large group of riders involved. Whilst these discretionary calls allow these riders to continue; they do not generally go unpunished as fines are levied and in all cases points ARE docked. As many of these riders are sprinters, this can be costly as it may impact their chances in the points competition which can involve some decent prize money at the end of the race.

 

[fatsprintking]

So a fine and points for Porte would have been appropriate? "generally"

 

[hrotha]

Re:

So a fine and points for Porte would have been appropriate? "generally"

No. It's a completely different infraction. Fine and points are specified for missing the time limit but being allowed to stay in the race. For what Porte did, 2 minutes is the only specified penalty for the first offense.

 

[fatsprintking]

What is the spirit of the rule and how was it contravened? Isn't being excluded form the race specified for not making the time limit?

 

[TheGreenMonkey]

Re:

It's very telling that much of the Australian media and journos can't see what's wrong (rules aside) with what Clarke and Porte did, because, after all, it was just an Aussie helping out an Aussie mate, and how can that possibly be wrong?!?!

*spits*

As an Australian (and I quite like Clarke as a rider) I find the pro Australian stupidity appalling. It is quite clear the rule was broken and I do not see it as a great act of sportsmanship by Clarke. It is just breaking the rules, through ignorance admittedly, but still wrong.

What I do find wrong about the ruling is that Clarke was not DQ'ed for pushing Porte. This is total incompetence by the jury, they apply part of the rule correctly and then completely ignore a difference part.

 

[oncehadhair]

I haven't read all the posts on this thread but from the one's I've read it seems that most people have missed the point. On any stage of these big races there are riders getting assistance for which, on paper, there are penalties.

So why don't they invoke the penalty when a rider gets a draught from another team's car (or even their own for that matter) or why don't they invoke the penalty when a rider takes food or drink from another team's handler. Or why not when the mechanic pushes the bike along when pretending to work on a wheel/seat/derailleur or when the handler passes the rider a drink or gel then proceeds to push the rider along.

Or why aren't they strict with eliminations due to time?

In many cases these penalties are not applied because there is some discretion - due to the rider involved or the number of riders (with time penalties). Or just the commissaires turning a blind eye.

I'm ok if they want to apply a penalty to Porte but they have to do it for all infringements and they have to do it for all riders.

 

[Carols]

Re: Re:

There are many right or wrong ways to win or to lose, yet in the end, the legend of cycling is that they happen and you have to live with it : Ocana falls in a ditch, Fignon's saddle sore and the triathlete position allow Lemond to win for 8 seconds, Schlek's chain just pops, etc etc etc.. Some victories are hollistic à la Merckx obliterating the field, some seem like the result of a coincidence, the wind going that way not the other, a tiny shard of glass precisely there on the road on that day at that hour.

Unpredictability is the glory of this sport, it's pulse. That's why raod cycling is so rich, has so much texture : It doesn't take place on a sterile environment, a pitch or court or track, a place bound and contained, protected and regulated. It takes place on the road, in that open air, in the rain and the sleet, under the blistering sun, on that perfectly smooth rolling road or that quasi gravel goat path, people are their shouting and encouraging, sometimes insulting and spitting, the cyclist remains an adventurer because he ventures on the road, on the open space. Sometimes epic adventures are derailed by the tiniest of incidents. This is part of road cycling. Take it away and the sport dies, it isn't the same anymore.

Excellent post, you have captured the essence of road cycling in words. Chapeau sir!

 

[fatsprintking]

Re:

I haven't read all the posts on this thread but from the one's I've read it seems that most people have missed the point. On any stage of these big races there are riders getting assistance for which, on paper, there are penalties.

So why don't they invoke the penalty when a rider gets a draught from another team's car (or even their own for that matter) or why don't they invoke the penalty when a rider takes food or drink from another team's handler. Or why not when the mechanic pushes the bike along when pretending to work on a wheel/seat/derailleur or when the handler passes the rider a drink or gel then proceeds to push the rider along.

Or why aren't they strict with eliminations due to time?

In many cases these penalties are not applied because there is some discretion - due to the rider involved or the number of riders (with time penalties). Or just the commissaires turning a blind eye.

I'm ok if they want to apply a penalty to Porte but they have to do it for all infringements and they have to do it for all riders.

Its really not that hard is it?

 

[fatsprintking]

Re: Re:

There are many right or wrong ways to win or to lose, yet in the end, the legend of cycling is that they happen and you have to live with it : Ocana falls in a ditch, Fignon's saddle sore and the triathlete position allow Lemond to win for 8 seconds, Schlek's chain just pops, etc etc etc.. Some victories are hollistic à la Merckx obliterating the field, some seem like the result of a coincidence, the wind going that way not the other, a tiny shard of glass precisely there on the road on that day at that hour.

Unpredictability is the glory of this sport, it's pulse. That's why raod cycling is so rich, has so much texture : It doesn't take place on a sterile environment, a pitch or court or track, a place bound and contained, protected and regulated. It takes place on the road, in that open air, in the rain and the sleet, under the blistering sun, on that perfectly smooth rolling road or that quasi gravel goat path, people are their shouting and encouraging, sometimes insulting and spitting, the cyclist remains an adventurer because he ventures on the road, on the open space. Sometimes epic adventures are derailed by the tiniest of incidents. This is part of road cycling. Take it away and the sport dies, it isn't the same anymore.

Excellent post, you have captured the essence of road cycling in words. Chapeau sir!

Just help me to understand how this relates to the situation we are talking about? Isn't a rider offering a wheel unexpectedly part of the unpredictability?

 

[biker jk]

Re:

I haven't read all the posts on this thread but from the one's I've read it seems that most people have missed the point. On any stage of these big races there are riders getting assistance for which, on paper, there are penalties.

So why don't they invoke the penalty when a rider gets a draught from another team's car (or even their own for that matter) or why don't they invoke the penalty when a rider takes food or drink from another team's handler. Or why not when the mechanic pushes the bike along when pretending to work on a wheel/seat/derailleur or when the handler passes the rider a drink or gel then proceeds to push the rider along.

Or why aren't they strict with eliminations due to time?

In many cases these penalties are not applied because there is some discretion - due to the rider involved or the number of riders (with time penalties). Or just the commissaires turning a blind eye.

I'm ok if they want to apply a penalty to Porte but they have to do it for all infringements and they have to do it for all riders.

Agree. I'm all for the rules being enforced but CONSISTENTLY. The clearly is precedent for discretion on rule enforcement, as you indicate.

 

[Dalakhani]

Re:

Thinking about it. I get the point of the rule. They're trying to make sure riders don't form an alliance or whatever?

Exactly.

Imagine if this hadn't happened and Contador's team ran out of gas next week.

What would stop Oleg from dipping into his pocket and paying a team with no GC hopes (Katusha, Movistar) to work for AC?

What would happen if Tinkov had deals with other teams to kill the peloton's speed (get to the front and block the road) if Contador had a mechanical? Or what would happen if all the Spanish riders just did this out of patriotism?

There have to be rules to punish this sort of thing. A team is 9 guys. That's all.

 

[SafeBet]

Re: Re:

What would stop Oleg from dipping into his pocket and paying a team with no GC hopes (Katusha, Movistar) to work for AC?

Nothing, actually.

 

[SlickMongoose]

Re: Re:

Thinking about it. I get the point of the rule. They're trying to make sure riders don't form an alliance or whatever?

Exactly.

Imagine if this hadn't happened and Contador's team ran out of gas next week.

What would stop Oleg from dipping into his pocket and paying a team with no GC hopes (Katusha, Movistar) to work for AC?

What would happen if Tinkov had deals with other teams to kill the peloton's speed (get to the front and block the road) if Contador had a mechanical? Or what would happen if all the Spanish riders just did this out of patriotism?

There have to be rules to punish this sort of thing. A team is 9 guys. That's all.

I watched BMC chasing down breaks and then leading out Peter Sagan for the intermediate sprint on Sunday, nobody seemed to care?

 

[Stelvio]

Re: Re:

What would stop Oleg from dipping into his pocket and paying a team with no GC hopes (Katusha, Movistar) to work for AC?

While I agree with your point, alliances on the road are, imho, not comparable and happens all the time. A better scenario is this: Contador isolated with Porte, Aru, Landa and Tiralongo, one minute in front of the next Saxo rider. The Saxo car hasn't made it up yet. Contador gets a puncture. Would it be ok if Tiralongo gives him a wheel?

Also, cycling has always had a hard stance on technical assistance. In the 1913 Tour de France, Eugène Christophe broke his fork. He had help handling the bellows while he welded it and received a ten minute penalty (in addition to the three hours it took him to fix it).

 

[Carols]

Re: Re:

There are many right or wrong ways to win or to lose, yet in the end, the legend of cycling is that they happen and you have to live with it : Ocana falls in a ditch, Fignon's saddle sore and the triathlete position allow Lemond to win for 8 seconds, Schlek's chain just pops, etc etc etc.. Some victories are hollistic à la Merckx obliterating the field, some seem like the result of a coincidence, the wind going that way not the other, a tiny shard of glass precisely there on the road on that day at that hour.

Unpredictability is the glory of this sport, it's pulse. That's why raod cycling is so rich, has so much texture : It doesn't take place on a sterile environment, a pitch or court or track, a place bound and contained, protected and regulated. It takes place on the road, in that open air, in the rain and the sleet, under the blistering sun, on that perfectly smooth rolling road or that quasi gravel goat path, people are their shouting and encouraging, sometimes insulting and spitting, the cyclist remains an adventurer because he ventures on the road, on the open space. Sometimes epic adventures are derailed by the tiniest of incidents. This is part of road cycling. Take it away and the sport dies, it isn't the same anymore.

Excellent post, you have captured the essence of road cycling in words. Chapeau sir!

Just help me to understand how this relates to the situation we are talking about? Isn't a rider offering a wheel unexpectedly part of the unpredictability?

It is an offense of a clear cut, well documented, decades old rule.

 

[fatsprintking]

Re: Re:

There are many right or wrong ways to win or to lose, yet in the end, the legend of cycling is that they happen and you have to live with it : Ocana falls in a ditch, Fignon's saddle sore and the triathlete position allow Lemond to win for 8 seconds, Schlek's chain just pops, etc etc etc.. Some victories are hollistic à la Merckx obliterating the field, some seem like the result of a coincidence, the wind going that way not the other, a tiny shard of glass precisely there on the road on that day at that hour.

Unpredictability is the glory of this sport, it's pulse. That's why raod cycling is so rich, has so much texture : It doesn't take place on a sterile environment, a pitch or court or track, a place bound and contained, protected and regulated. It takes place on the road, in that open air, in the rain and the sleet, under the blistering sun, on that perfectly smooth rolling road or that quasi gravel goat path, people are their shouting and encouraging, sometimes insulting and spitting, the cyclist remains an adventurer because he ventures on the road, on the open space. Sometimes epic adventures are derailed by the tiniest of incidents. This is part of road cycling. Take it away and the sport dies, it isn't the same anymore.

Excellent post, you have captured the essence of road cycling in words. Chapeau sir!

Just help me to understand how this relates to the situation we are talking about? Isn't a rider offering a wheel unexpectedly part of the unpredictability?

It is an offense of a clear cut, well documented, decades old rule.

Like holding onto a car.

 

[Kwibus]

Re: Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fai

Had Porte been a different rider, from a different nation (Columbia?) or a different team, would that other rider offered a wheel? I think not. That is why the rule exists.

Alas, as a Porte fan, I have to say that this is correct.

Although I think the act from Clarke himself was a great show of sportsmanship.

Yes, it was. Also because Porte is his friend.

Too bad they didn't know the rules. It really sucks since he is GC contender, but we will have to deal with it

 

[veji11]

Re: Re:

There are many right or wrong ways to win or to lose, yet in the end, the legend of cycling is that they happen and you have to live with it : Ocana falls in a ditch, Fignon's saddle sore and the triathlete position allow Lemond to win for 8 seconds, Schlek's chain just pops, etc etc etc.. Some victories are hollistic à la Merckx obliterating the field, some seem like the result of a coincidence, the wind going that way not the other, a tiny shard of glass precisely there on the road on that day at that hour.

Unpredictability is the glory of this sport, it's pulse. That's why raod cycling is so rich, has so much texture : It doesn't take place on a sterile environment, a pitch or court or track, a place bound and contained, protected and regulated. It takes place on the road, in that open air, in the rain and the sleet, under the blistering sun, on that perfectly smooth rolling road or that quasi gravel goat path, people are their shouting and encouraging, sometimes insulting and spitting, the cyclist remains an adventurer because he ventures on the road, on the open space. Sometimes epic adventures are derailed by the tiniest of incidents. This is part of road cycling. Take it away and the sport dies, it isn't the same anymore.

Excellent post, you have captured the essence of road cycling in words. Chapeau sir!

Just help me to understand how this relates to the situation we are talking about? Isn't a rider offering a wheel unexpectedly part of the unpredictability?

Because it takes away from that unpredictability. If you allow it, it means a big leader will always find someone willing to give him his wheel, and ways will be found to compensate later on if need be, it means mechanicals become less of a threat, etc.

 

[fatsprintking]

Re: Re:

There are many right or wrong ways to win or to lose, yet in the end, the legend of cycling is that they happen and you have to live with it : Ocana falls in a ditch, Fignon's saddle sore and the triathlete position allow Lemond to win for 8 seconds, Schlek's chain just pops, etc etc etc.. Some victories are hollistic à la Merckx obliterating the field, some seem like the result of a coincidence, the wind going that way not the other, a tiny shard of glass precisely there on the road on that day at that hour.

Unpredictability is the glory of this sport, it's pulse. That's why raod cycling is so rich, has so much texture : It doesn't take place on a sterile environment, a pitch or court or track, a place bound and contained, protected and regulated. It takes place on the road, in that open air, in the rain and the sleet, under the blistering sun, on that perfectly smooth rolling road or that quasi gravel goat path, people are their shouting and encouraging, sometimes insulting and spitting, the cyclist remains an adventurer because he ventures on the road, on the open space. Sometimes epic adventures are derailed by the tiniest of incidents. This is part of road cycling. Take it away and the sport dies, it isn't the same anymore.

Excellent post, you have captured the essence of road cycling in words. Chapeau sir!

Just help me to understand how this relates to the situation we are talking about? Isn't a rider offering a wheel unexpectedly part of the unpredictability?

Because it takes away from that unpredictability. If you allow it, it means a big leader will always find someone willing to give him his wheel, and ways will be found to compensate later on if need be, it means mechanicals become less of a threat, etc.

Just remind me how many times this has been an issue in the past? I understand these are the big issues for the sport!

 

[veji11]

Re: Re:

Just remind me how many times this has been an issue in the past? I understand these are the big issues for the sport!

Look what do you want me to say ? Is this rule "a key issue for the sport" ? No I don't think so no, but it exists and it exists for a reason. It is damn unfortunate Porte put himself in such a situation by just panicking and acting completely braindead in the face of what is classic cycling occurence : a flat tire as the peloton rides fast away from you. It has happened to all greats but they haven't made a total mess out of it like HE did. HE parked on the left side so was missed by his car. HE took his mate's wheel, forgetting for a while that "hey maybe I should take my teammate's rather than my homie's from another team". HE made a mess out of something so mundane and ordinary.

Had he managed that with a modicum of intelligence, he would have lost 30 seconds and be done with it. He lost close to 3 minutes because of his blunders. Let's not make the rules the culprit here ok ? Sometimes rule are not very clever or very fair or whatever, but they are there and as other and I have said, there have been examples in the past of that rule being applied in the exact same way (Tour de l'Avenir 2009, Romain Sicard). That it doesn't happen that often is a testament to riders' intelligence and ability to PROPERLY do a wheel change when need be. For Porte to mess up such a trivial incident is in itself inexcusable when you pretend to be a GT winner.

No need to delve into a meta debate about fairness and the spirit of the law.

 

[Angliru]

Re:

What I am baffled by is why it is perfectly OK for rivals to share food or drinks or for one team to hand up food to another teams rider. Or for two teams to actively collaborate to eliminate a third but it is not OK to help mechanically. Total double standards.

One could be considered more of humanitarian assistance, as a rider without water and food exerting himself in extreme conditions could be seen as being in potential for risking their health, while offering mechanical assistance is just that. There is no double standard.

 

[fatsprintking]

Re: Re:

Just remind me how many times this has been an issue in the past? I understand these are the big issues for the sport!

Look what do you want me to say ? Is this rule "a key issue for the sport" ? No I don't think so no, but it exists and it exists for a reason. It is damn unfortunate Porte put himself in such a situation by just panicking and acting completely braindead in the face of what is classic cycling occurence : a flat tire as the peloton rides fast away from you. It has happened to all greats but they haven't made a total mess out of it like HE did. HE parked on the left side so was missed by his car. HE took his mate's wheel, forgetting for a while that "hey maybe I should take my teammate's rather than my homie's from another team". HE made a mess out of something so mundane and ordinary.

Had he managed that with a modicum of intelligence, he would have lost 30 seconds and be done with it. He lost close to 3 minutes because of his blunders. Let's not make the rules the culprit here ok ? Sometimes rule are not very clever or very fair or whatever, but they are there and as other and I have said, there have been examples in the past of that rule being applied in the exact same way (Tour de l'Avenir 2009, Romain Sicard). That it doesn't happen that often is a testament to riders' intelligence and ability to PROPERLY do a wheel change when need be. For Porte to mess up such a trivial incident is in itself inexcusable when you pretend to be a GT winner.

No need to delve into a meta debate about fairness and the spirit of the law.

If you are happy to bring things down to an intelligence test that is your choice. I like the passion and instinctive decision making of our sport. Cheating to win and accepting anothers support to stay in contention are not the same thing. Or have I missed the point!