Power Data Estimates for the climbing stages

[halamala]

Richie Porte climbed 6.0 W/kg

Richie Porte

Criterium du Dauphine 2012, Stage 6, Final Climb, Col de Joux Plane

Elevation / Höhenmeter [m] : 981 m
Distance / Streckenlänge [Km] : 11.7 Km
Time in seconds / Fahrzeit in Sekunden [sec] : 2136 = 35 min 36 sec = 35:36
Weight rider / Gewicht Fahrer [kg] : 63 kg [Wikipedia]
Weight bicycle, clothes etc. / Gewicht Fahrrad [kg] : 8 kg

Grade / mittlere Seigung : 8.4 %
Average speed / mittlere Geschwindigkeit : 19.7 Km/h
Total weight / Gesamtgewicht : 71.0 kg

Power : 379.4 Watt
Power / kg : 6.0 Watt / kg

Source: [ http://www.rst.mp-all.de/bergauf.htm ]

 

[Le breton]

Richie Porte

Criterium du Dauphine 2012, Stage 6, Final Climb, Col de Joux Plane

Elevation / Höhenmeter [m] : 981 m
Distance / Streckenlänge [Km] : 11.7 Km
Time in seconds / Fahrzeit in Sekunden [sec] : 2136 = 35 min 36 sec = 35:36
Weight rider / Gewicht Fahrer [kg] : 63 kg [Wikipedia]
Weight bicycle, clothes etc. / Gewicht Fahrrad [kg] : 8 kg

Grade / mittlere Seigung : 8.4 %
Average speed / mittlere Geschwindigkeit : 19.7 Km/h
Total weight / Gesamtgewicht : 71.0 kg

Power : 379.4 Watt
Power / kg : 6.0 Watt / kg

Source: [ http://www.rst.mp-all.de/bergauf.htm ]

Using analyticcyling, I get pretty much the same result.

Reminder :
PANTANI 1997 --> 32:55
ULLRICH 97 ---> 33:50 (SAME as Virenque 97)
..........2000---> 34:40

 

[Moller]

Froome's 35.36 is quicker than Landis in 2006.

2006
1 - Carlos Sastre 35'47''
2 - Christophe Moreau 36'39" (+ 52" )
3 - Floyd Landis 36'57'' (+ 1'10" )
4 - Damiano Cunego 36'58" (+ 1'11'')
5 - Pereiro Sio, Kloden, Zubeldia, Bogerd, Schleck 37'32" (+ 1'45" )
10 - Menchov, Rasmussen, Evans 37'59 (+ 2'12" )
13 - Dessel, Guerini 38'59" (+ 3'12" )
15 - Groupe Fothen : 39'47" (+ 4'00" )


En 1997 :

1 - Marco Pantani 32'55"
2 - Richard Virenque 33'50"
2 - Ian Ullrich 33'50"
4 - Bjarne Riis 34'24"
4 - Fernando Escartin 34'24"

En 2000 :

1 - Richard Virenque 34'15"
1 - Roberto Heras 34'15"
3 - Ian Ullrich 34'43"
4 - Pascal Hervé 35'18"
4 - Joseba Beloki 35'18"
4 - Fernando Escartin 35'18"
7 - Lance Armstrong 36'28"
7 - Christophe Moreau 36'28"
7 - Santiago Botero 36'28"
7 - Roberto Conti 36'28"
7 - Daniel Atienza 36'28"
12 - Paco Mancebo 36'55"
12 - Otxoa 36'55""

 

[Race Radio]

Froome's 35.36 is quicker than Landis in 2006.

No surprise. This was at the end of Landis' stage 17 all day attack. He started to crack on the final climb, Joux Plane

 

[Moller]

he's actually quicker than everyone that year, including those, who at that point had ridden the stage 8 mins slower than landis while sheltering in the bunch

 

[Ferminal]

Thanks halamala.

I think it's interesting that last year we had great numbers in the Dauphine, but they were from Rodriguez who had invincible Giro legs. This year it's from those still looking to improve for the Tour.

 

[karlboss]

35 minutes, average 6w/kg guaranteed EBH was over and Porte under. Any estimates on EBH's performance vs Porte's.

8 riders never had to pull, and they include 2 vuelta podiums, 4 riders who have gone top 10 at the tour, Kiryenka and Weening and probably averaged around 5.7 after a slow day.

As we are in the clinic, could be one of two things, Sky riders are on form and motivated for this one, vs loads of people off form and not willing to go into the red.
Or Sky have an awesome program running, as usual we are probably looking somewhere between the 2. Who knows exactly where between the two. Thanks halamala.

 

[Le breton]

Froome's 35.36 is quicker than Landis in 2006.

2006
1 - Carlos Sastre 35'47''
2 - Christophe Moreau 36'39" (+ 52" )
3 - Floyd Landis 36'57'' (+ 1'10" )
---------------------------------------
http://le-grimpeur.net/blog/archives/27
The blog above goes over that epic stage, a fantastic moment of TV but one of the most shameful testimonies of doped cycling at its worse.

Here is an excerpt from that blog :

Landis had previously used a power meter in the 2005 Tour and Lim had published all his performance data. Analyzing his stage 17 results in 2006, Lim concluded that “Floyd averaged 281 watts for the entire 5 hour and 23 minute ride”. He went on to add that, “In training before the Tour and even before the Tour of Georgia, Floyd would regularly perform 6-hour rides at 300-310 watt averages.”

Lim also pointed to other figures: “As a point of reference, the overall average for the mountain days in the 2006 Tour de France was 269 watts +/- 16 watts [253-285], while the average in the 2005 Tour de France for the mountains was 274 watts +/- 20 watts [254-294].”

Going into the stage, Lim calculated that if Landis produced 380 watts on the climbs he would stay with the field; anything over and he would put time into them. Producing 370 watts would mean losing time. Using Landis’s stage 17 data, Lim published the following figures for the climbs.

* Col des Saises: 36 min 55 sec at 395 watts (gains time on field)

* Col des Aravis: 16 min 49 sec at 371 watts (loses time on field)

* Col de la Colombiere: 27 min 45 sec at 392 watts (gains time on field)

* Cote de Chatillon: 11 min 7 sec at 374 watts (loses time on field)

* Col de Joux-Plane: 37 min 34 sec at 372 watts (loses time on field)

Somewhere Lim gives 70 kg for Landis, we don't know about his water-logged jersey and tights.
Air resistance was lower than yesterday as it was quite hot that day, on the other hand he had no shelter from other cyclists. He was using an SRM power meter :no need to add 2.5% for transmission losses.
Let's assume his SRM was properly calibrated.

372/70 =5.31 watts/kg.

An energy expenditure of 372 X (37 X 60 +34) = 838 kJ to take 70 + 8 kg up 981 meters at 5.19 m/s.

I'll come back to that if I have the time.
------
Added later

Using analytic cycling, assuming a temp. of 28°C (air density =1.02), constant velocity, transmission losses of 2.5%, CdA=0.375, I get 372 watts for a 75 kg (bike, etc)cyclist.
---------

For Virenque 2000, 74 kg all included, Portoleau-Vayer calculated 408 watts (34:12), ie a total energy expenditure of 408 X (34 x 60 +12) = 837 kJ.
------------------------
An interesting addition
http://www.cyclingforums.com/t/383257/landis-stage-17-explained-by-dr-allen-lim

 

[Le breton]

Froome's 35.36 is quicker than Landis in 2006.

2006
1 - Carlos Sastre 35'47''
2 - Christophe Moreau 36'39" (+ 52" )
3 - Floyd Landis 36'57'' (+ 1'10" )

http://le-grimpeur.net/blog/archives/27
The blog goes over that epic stage, a fantastic moment of TV but one of the most shameful testimonies of doped cycling at its worse.

Here is an excerpt from that blog :

Landis had previously used a power meter in the 2005 Tour and Lim had published all his performance data. Analyzing his stage 17 results in 2006, Lim concluded that “Floyd averaged 281 watts for the entire 5 hour and 23 minute ride”. He went on to add that, “In training before the Tour and even before the Tour of Georgia, Floyd would regularly perform 6-hour rides at 300-310 watt averages.”

Lim also pointed to other figures: “As a point of reference, the overall average for the mountain days in the 2006 Tour de France was 269 watts +/- 16 watts [253-285], while the average in the 2005 Tour de France for the mountains was 274 watts +/- 20 watts [254-294].”

Going into the stage, Lim calculated that if Landis produced 380 watts on the climbs he would stay with the field; anything over and he would put time into them. Producing 370 watts would mean losing time. Using Landis’s stage 17 data, Lim published the following figures for the climbs.

* Col des Saises: 36 min 55 sec at 395 watts (gains time on field)

* Col des Aravis: 16 min 49 sec at 371 watts (loses time on field)

* Col de la Colombiere: 27 min 45 sec at 392 watts (gains time on field)

* Cote de Chatillon: 11 min 7 sec at 374 watts (loses time on field)

* Col de Joux-Plane: 37 min 34 sec at 372 watts (loses time on field)

Somewhere Lim gives 70 kg for Landis, we don't know about his water-logged jersey and tights.
Air resistance was lower than yesterday as it was quite hot that day, on the other hand he had no shelter from other cyclists. He was using an SRM power meter :no need to add 2.5% for transmission losses.
Let's assume his SRM was properly calibrated.

372/70 =5.31 watts/kg.

An energy expenditure of 372 X (37 X 60 +34) = 838 kJ to take 70 + 8 kg up 981 meters at 5.19 m/s.

I'll come back to that if I have the time.

 

[iZnoGouD]

any data from Verbier?

 

[Skibby the bush kangaroo]

any data from Verbier?

I didn't see where they went through the official start of the climb, but from 6km to go took Rui Costa 16min22sec, which I believe equates to a VAM of around 1790 m/hr and about 6.6 W/kg.

 

[Nilsson]

I didn't see where they went through the official start of the climb, but from 6km to go took Rui Costa 16min22sec, which I believe equates to a VAM of around 1790 m/hr and about 6.6 W/kg.

That's only half a minute slower than Contador, and therefore faster than all the others back in 2009...

 

[Parrulo]

from the roundabout where they turn left and start the climb at roughly 8k to go to the finish:

Contador: 20:38 min

Costa: 22:19 min

checked by myself looking at the tour stage i have on my hard drive and video with the full last 14k available on steephill.

could any1 do some calculations?

according to the movistar site Costa is 1.82 m tall and weights 67 Kg.

 

[Le breton]

from the roundabout where they turn left and start the climb at roughly 8k to go to the finish:

Contador: 20:38 min

Costa: 22:19 min

checked by myself looking at the tour stage i have on my hard drive and video with the full last 14k available on steephill.

could any1 do some calculations?

according to the movistar site Costa is 1.82 m tall and weights 67 Kg.

ASSUMING the finish is the same although the altitudes quoted differ by 4m (TdF 2009 1468 m/ TdS 2012 1472m)
and the distance covered 8.7 km, although cyclismag in 2009 said that a panel gave 8.7 km to finish at the time while the GPS data gave 8.3 km.

We have a temp of probably only 14°C,
air density 1.04 g/cm^3
v = 8700/1339s
taking CdA = 0.375 m^2
Crr = 0.004
using analytic cycling for 67 + 8 kg

we get

430 watts + 10.7 watts transmission loss (2.5%)

ie 440 watts/67 kg = 6.58 watts/kg

I just do the calculation, apart from the time of 22:19, and the temp which I verified on meteosuisse.ch, I don't know much.
In particular : is the 651 meters elevation correct?
How much of the time was he drafting behind others?

 

[Parrulo]

damn those are some high values,

he sat on the group for much of the first part of the climb, then set the pace for a bit(only a few hundred meters) after frank attacked and decided to sit back on the pack again. he went for it solo with about 2k to go catching and passing tommy D and gadret and dropping them straight away.

the finish seems to be the same only a few meters further up the road then the one used at the tour.

 

[simoni]

Don't forget verbier is a short climb. w/kg here shouldn't be compared with what people achieve on, say, the tourmalet or ventoux.

 

[Le breton]

damn those are some high values,

he sat on the group for much of the first part of the climb, then set the pace for a bit(only a few hundred meters) after frank attacked and decided to sit back on the pack again. he went for it solo with about 2k to go catching and passing tommy D and gadret and dropping them straight away.

the finish seems to be the same only a few meters further up the road then the one used at the tour.

If he was drafting 75% of the time, saving about 25% of air resistance at that speed (6.5 m/s), his overall energy saving corresponds to about 14 watts, i.e. just about 0.2 watts/kg.

In other words 6.58 watts/kg becomes 6.38 watts/kg.

 

[Le breton]

.......
Using Landis’s stage 17 data, Lim published the following figures for the climbs.
.......

* Col de Joux-Plane: 37 min 34 sec at 372 watts (loses time on field)[/I]
.......
An energy expenditure of 372 X (37 X 60 +34) = 838 kJ to take 70 + 8 kg up 981 meters at 5.19 m/s.

I'll come back to that if I have the time.

On october 14, 2005, I leisurely climbed Joux-Plane with my Powertap in 64:30.
Weighed myself at the bottom with bike : 69.8 kg.
Temp was about 15°C

My Powertap had intermittences and stopped working during 40 sec near the bottom and 10 s. near the top, registering 11.51 km instead of 11.7 km and 63:37 instead of 64:30.

Correcting for those 50 sec I expanded 743 kJ (Powertap).

Had I used a SRM the reading should have been 2,5% higher, i.e. 762 kJ.

Had I climbed as fast as Landis I would have expanded an additional 38kJ (increased air resistance), bringing my total to 800 kJ.

838/800 times 69.8 = 73.1 kg.

So I end up with a 7% discrepancy with the Landis+bike total weight of 78 kg.

Now if I use analytic cycling to calculate my 2005 climb of Jx-Plane,
I get an expenditure of 742 kJ with transmission losses included, not 762 kJ.

When I have time, I'll look at my other notes from that day.

 

[Parrulo]

sso btw 6.3 and 6.6 w/kg for costa.

is that considered too high? or since the whole verbier climb is done in under 25 minutes it still is a plausible value?

 

[karlboss]

sso btw 6.3 and 6.6 w/kg for costa.

is that considered too high? or since the whole verbier climb is done in under 25 minutes it still is a plausible value?

I'll give you this and let you make up your own mind. basso power time estimations

Looking at the shape more than anything else. and knowing that the very best riders clean got values approaching 6w/kg at the end of a hard day. I'd say 6.3 is possible, 6.6w/kg no. Though I've never thought of Costa as one to dominate the Tour and even 6.3w/kg is pushing it for Contador. However it doesn't take much wind to drastically swing these calculations.

 

[durianrider]

So Landis won the 2006 Tour by holding 5.3 watts per kg up all the climbs that day? Makes sense since there was so many climbs that stage. So 6+ figure is only aplicable to the last climb of the stage then right?

BTW, he rode a powertap vs SRM.

 

[Trond Vidar]

That is not the bike he used on that infamous stage 17 in 2006. I shot this of him coming into Morzine.

He does have the Powertap Joule computer on his stem, so I am sure it was a powertap fitted hub as well.

 

[Gregga]

Hopefully Landis didn't use these heavy Zipp 404/Powertap wheels of the first picture in the Morzine stage, his bike would have been far above the 6,8kg UCI limit, maybe close to 8kg which is really nonsense in a mountain stage. Funny to see how the bikes have changed since 2006, Landis almost looking like an amateur with his strange reversed stem. (NB : this is not a SRM computer on Landis handlebar but a Powertap Joule computer, SRM is a trade mark of crankset based powermeters, Powertap is in the rear hub)

 

[karlboss]

ASSUMING the finish is the same although the altitudes quoted differ by 4m (TdF 2009 1468 m/ TdS 2012 1472m)
and the distance covered 8.7 km, although cyclismag in 2009 said that a panel gave 8.7 km to finish at the time while the GPS data gave 8.3 km.

We have a temp of probably only 14°C,
air density 1.04 g/cm^3
v = 8700/1339s
taking CdA = 0.375 m^2
Crr = 0.004
using analytic cycling for 67 + 8 kg

we get

430 watts + 10.7 watts transmission loss (2.5%)

ie 440 watts/67 kg = 6.58 watts/kg

I just do the calculation, apart from the time of 22:19, and the temp which I verified on meteosuisse.ch, I don't know much.
In particular : is the 651 meters elevation correct?
How much of the time was he drafting behind others?

We've made an error, the finish isn't in the traditional place, and by google maps it's 8.1km from the pedestrian crossing at the roundabout to the finishline. Elevation gain is 644.
Using the same numbers as yours, but the variations stated gives
393 watts+2.5% = 403watts
403/67=6w/kg

 

[roundabout]

The time schedule says that it's 8.6km from the start of the climb til to the finish. I don't see any reason not to believe it.