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Power Data Estimates for the climbing stages

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durianrider said:
........
BTW, he rode a powertap vs SRM. ;)

floyd.jpg

Thanks a lot, that reduces considerably the discrepancy.

Also, I found a 2006 note of mine where i wrote (assumed?) that his total weight (with bike, etc) was 76 kg not 78 kg.
 
karlboss said:
.............. Though I've never thought of Costa as one to dominate the Tour and even 6.3w/kg is pushing it for Contador. However it doesn't take much wind to drastically swing these calculations.

As I said earlier, concerning Joux-Plane, 1+1/2 to 2 hours before the racers went by the wind was not very noticeable on the climb (while it was blowing from the west in the valley- 10-15km/h, my guess).

At 1220m, mid-height, where I was located, there was a thermal updraft sufficient to see a flag next to me floating perpendicularly to the road, PLUS isolated racers and small group used the left side of the road to have the protection of the spectators (my guess, the road goes almost towards the west there).

On Joux-Plane, for the last 5 km your are mostly in the forest and don't feel the wind.

I wouldn't expect drastic effects from the wind on last saturday on Jx-Plane.
 
karlboss said:
We've made an error, the finish isn't in the traditional place, and by google maps it's 8.1km from the pedestrian crossing at the roundabout to the finishline. Elevation gain is 644.
Using the same numbers as yours, but the variations stated gives
393 watts+2.5% = 403watts
403/67=6w/kg

I don't know what is traditional .
in 2008, the finish in Verbier was at 1523 meters according to
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2008/jun08/suisse08/?id=stages/suisse086
You can find the times here for 2008

http://www.swisstrophy.ch/2008/index.php?s=18&ss=18&strecke=804&such=&kat=&sex=0&go=go

The swiss-trophy was an event started by daniel Girard (Geneva) in which you could take a card, clock yourself at the bottom and top of a number of climbs in Switzerland (also Austria)

Of course the pros were clocked differently.

The 2008 course can be found here

http://www.swisstrophy.ch/2008/index.php?s=1010&strecke=804

PS Daniel Girard is an ex-pro who has a bike shop in Geneva.
------------------

Concerning the Diro d'Italia, Laflammerouge published interesting figures computed by Portoleau
http://laflammerouge.com/les-chiffres-du-giro-avec-frederic-portoleau/
 
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LeBreton, I've no problems with what you did. You used the numbers you found and had been quoted, they disagreed with what Parullo had which was it was a little over 8km, then you used 8700m. I thought well there's a huge descrepancy there. Looked it up on climb by bike 8.7km and that noted where the finish was, then looked up the tour de suisse finishing town map, and the finish location is quite different.

On my point about wind, you'll note I was referring to Costa, who as far as I know did not ride Joux Plane, but Verbier. It was a general point, but if you know the wind conditions on Verbier you'd no doubt include it.

Roundabout, the schedule doesn't add up with google and I doubt google is as far out as it appears. There is a gap between 8.9 Villette-Le Châble to le cotterg 8.1 is about 800m, but le cotterg to Rue de Crêta-Cô is 6.8km, whereas by the schedule it should be 7.5km. However Rue de Crêta-Cô is 600m from the finish. I think someone has been lazy in assuming the verbier climb is 8700 and done the directions at the bottom using that, and then at the top using where the actual finish is.
 
I suppose you are right. I just thought that such a huge error on the time schedule is unlikely. But thinking about it a little more, it would make sense that the actual distance of the climb is less than reported given the tendency of Verbier to produce some very high values.
 
karlboss said:
LeBreton, I've no problems with what you did. You used the numbers you found and had been quoted, they disagreed with what Parullo had which was it was a little over 8km, then you used 8700m. I thought well there's a huge descrepancy there. Looked it up on climb by bike 8.7km and that noted where the finish was, then looked up the tour de suisse finishing town map, and the finish location is quite different.

On my point about wind, you'll note I was referring to Costa, who as far as I know did not ride Joux Plane, but Verbier. It was a general point, but if you know the wind conditions on Verbier you'd no doubt include it.

Roundabout, the schedule doesn't add up with google and I doubt google is as far out as it appears. There is a gap between 8.9 Villette-Le Châble to le cotterg 8.1 is about 800m, but le cotterg to Rue de Crêta-Cô is 6.8km, whereas by the schedule it should be 7.5km. However Rue de Crêta-Cô is 600m from the finish. I think someone has been lazy in assuming the verbier climb is 8700 and done the directions at the bottom using that, and then at the top using where the actual finish is.

i don't know if we talking about the same thing, but if you want to know the exact distance from the roundabout at 821 meters altitude to the finish in Verbier, here is the map of that finish:
http://www.tourdesuisse.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/2012/TDS/Verkehrsplaene/Verbier_Ziel.pdf

My 1/50 000 map does not show the very end of the course, must have been constructed since 1988. Anyway, I can see that the altitude is between 1460 and 1480 meters, so that 1472 m is quite plausible. Elevation 651 meters.

Now, for 75 kg, an extra distance of 500 m will increase the energy needed by about 1.5 kJ, i.e. about the same as an extra 2 meters in elevation.

However, for the whole climb Costa needed about 640 kJ.

An extra/reduced distance would increase/decrease loss to air resistance.
500m/8500m , about 6% ; 6.5m/s vs 6.12m/s.

We are talking about a difference of 12 kJ for a reduction in distance of 500 meters. Altogether 12+1.5 =13.5 kJ (out of 640 kJ).

6.38 watts/kg would become 6.24 watts/kg

So, I wait for your final word on google distance.
 
karlboss said:
LeBreton, I've no problems with what you did. You used the numbers you found and had been quoted, they disagreed with what Parullo had which was it was a little over 8km, then you used 8700m. I thought well there's a huge descrepancy there. Looked it up on climb by bike 8.7km and that noted where the finish was, then looked up the tour de suisse finishing town map, and the finish location is quite different.

On my point about wind, you'll note I was referring to Costa, who as far as I know did not ride Joux Plane, but Verbier. It was a general point, but if you know the wind conditions on Verbier you'd no doubt include it.

Roundabout, the schedule doesn't add up with google and I doubt google is as far out as it appears. There is a gap between 8.9 Villette-Le Châble to le cotterg 8.1 is about 800m, but le cotterg to Rue de Crêta-Cô is 6.8km, whereas by the schedule it should be 7.5km. However Rue de Crêta-Cô is 600m from the finish. I think someone has been lazy in assuming the verbier climb is 8700 and done the directions at the bottom using that, and then at the top using where the actual finish is.

I just now realized what you were talking about since YOU NEVER GAVE YOUR SOURCE. You are referring to this
http://www.tourdesuisse.ch/fileadmi...htabelle_2._Etappe_Verbania__I__-_Verbier.pdf

Why didn't you say so? instead of making me waste time trying to clear things? Really annoying
 
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Le breton said:
I just now realized what you were talking about since YOU NEVER GAVE YOUR SOURCE. You are referring to this
http://www.tourdesuisse.ch/fileadmi...htabelle_2._Etappe_Verbania__I__-_Verbier.pdf

Why didn't you say so? instead of making me waste time trying to clear things? Really annoying

then i looked up "Tour de suisse finishing town map" wasn't enough? Next time I'll link it, my apologies.

Now that you now exactly where it ends will you calculate it again, or trust the numbers i punched in? I note i round more often than you do, I guess I'm a little more lax, I just figure the wind one way or another, CdA variance between riders etc etc leads to larger errors than rounding so why bother.
 
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Rui Costa climbed 6.6 W/kg

Rui Costa

Tour de Suisse 2012, Stage 2, Final Climb, Verbier


Elevation / Höhenmeter [m] : 638 m
Distance / Streckenlänge [Km] : 8.3 Km
Time in seconds / Fahrzeit in Sekunden [sec] : 1305 = 21 min 45 sec = 21:45
Weight rider / Gewicht Fahrer [kg] : 68 kg [Wikipedia]
Weight bicycle, clothes etc. / Gewicht Fahrrad [kg] : 8 kg

Grade / mittlere Seigung : 7.6 %
Average speed / mittlere Geschwindigkeit : 22.8 Km/h
Total weight / Gesamtgewicht : 76.0 kg

Power : 451.4 Watt
Power / kg : 6.6 Watt / kg


Source: [ http://www.rst.mp-all.de/bergauf.htm ]

---

The record: Alberto Contador 20:40, Tour de France 2009
 
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Verbier (Distance 8.3 Km, Grade 7.6 %, Elevation 638 m)

Tour de France 2009 & Tour de Suisse 2012

TOP-30

1. Alberto Contador 20:40, TdF 2009
2. Andy Schleck 21:23, TdF 2009
3. Vincenzo Nibali 21:43, TdF 2009
4. Rui Costa 21:45, TdS 2012
5. Frank Schleck 21:46, TdF 2009
6. Bradley Wiggins 21:46, TdF 2009
7. Carlos Sastre 21:46, TdF 2009
8. Frank Schleck 21:49, TdS 2012
9. Mikel Nieve 21:57, TdS 2012
10. Giampaolo Caruso 21:58, TdS 2012
11. Thibaut Pinot 21:58, TdS 2012
12. Nicolas Roche 22:01, TdS 2012
13. Chris Anker Sörensen 22:01, TdS 2012
14. John Gadret 22:01, TdS 2012
15. Alejandro Valverde 22:03, TdS 2012
16. Cadel Evans 22:06, TdF 2009
17. Toman Kreuziger 22:07, TdS 2012
18. Robert Kiserlovski 22:07, TdS 2012
19. Thomas Danielson 22:07, TdS 2012
20. Levi Leipheimer 22:07, TdS 2012
21. Andreas Klöden 22:09, TdF 2009
22. Thomas Lövkvist 22:10, TdS 2012
23. Lance Armstrong 22:15, TdF 2009
24. Steven Kruijswijk 22:18, TdS 2012
25. Jakob Fuglsang 22:22, TdS 2012
26. Vladimir Gusev 22:28, TdS 2012
27. Damiano Cunego 22:32, TdS 2012
28. Kim Kirchen 22:35, TdF 2009
29. Roman Kreuziger 22:46, TdF 2009
30. Robert Gesink 22:49, TdS 2012

11 x Tour de France 2009, 19 x Tour de Suisse 2012.
 
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Le Breton, Halamala, and Parrulo. Where did you get your time for the climb?
I make it 21:00 from the pedestrian crossing at the round about to the finish. Using this videoThey cross on about 7:20 and finish at 28:20.
 
that video is corrupt.
halamala's times of verbier are all correct

me, i started the stopwatch on verbier a little earlier,from 8,5 km to go

58407243994843384632.jpg


Verbier par Villette Le Chable(carrefour Le Chable-Route de Verbier)
2012:8,5 km@7,5%---22:00---average speed 23.18 km/h(Rui Costa)
2009:8,5 km@7,5%---20:55---average speed 24.38 km/h(Alberto Contador)
2008:9,7 km@7,3%---25:00---average speed 23.28 km/h(Kim Kirchen)

the distance is right although i won't be surprised to be even longer than 8,5 kg to go.7 w/kg for alberto in 2009 is a little bit an overhyped performance,that's only 20 minutes...pena cabarga had that i guess on the both occasions...the routes are so easy until the final climb.now when alberto will keep those 7 w/kg for almost an hour like il pirata here,let me know

Plan di Montecampione da Pian Camuno
1998:20 km@7,5%---49:44---average speed 24.13 km/h (Marco Pantani)
 
karlboss said:
Le Breton, Halamala, and Parrulo. Where did you get your time for the climb?
I make it 21:00 from the pedestrian crossing at the round about to the finish. Using this videoThey cross on about 7:20 and finish at 28:20.

Here is my source : Parrulo
From the roundabout where they turn left and start the climb at roughly 8k to go to the finish:

Contador: 20:38 min

Costa: 22:19 min

checked by myself looking at the tour stage i have on my hard drive and video with the full last 14k available on steephill.

could any1 do some calculations?

according to the movistar site Costa is 1.82 m tall and weights 67 Kg.
 
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BigBoat said:
hmmm......

halamala appears to have the average power of Costa just about spot on. He's a tad off Wiggin's probably average power in this time trial where Danny Pate was "smoked" after averaging over 5.7 w/kg for 21 mins.

To beat the top contenders requires almost exactly 6.4 w/kg over a 60 minute period at the moment.


http://home.trainingpeaks.com/races/team-sky-races/2012-paris-nice/stage-8.aspx

Wiggins took 19:12 in that time trial, I agree about 6.4W/kg for Wiggins, but for 20 minutes not 60. 6.1W/kg max for 60
 
karlboss said:
LeBreton, I've no problems with what you did. You used the numbers you found and had been quoted, they disagreed with what Parullo had which was it was a little over 8km, then you used 8700m. I thought well there's a huge descrepancy there. Looked it up on climb by bike 8.7km and that noted where the finish was, then looked up the tour de suisse finishing town map, and the finish location is quite different.
......

Here is what climbbybike has to say:

http://www.climbbybike.com/profile.asp?Climbprofile=Verbier&MountainID=8971

It's obviously hopeless, how could you even consider using that source for accurate power estimates?

On my point about wind, you'll note I was referring to Costa, who as far as I know did not ride Joux Plane, but Verbier. It was a general point, but if you know the wind conditions on Verbier you'd no doubt include it.

I did look at a video of the climb 2 days ago. Could see that roads were wet, very slight rain. I had also looked at the data about wind in nearby SION on meteosuisse.ch. But that data gets update all the time so it's no longer available on the web. (They show current day and 2 previous days.) Enough to make me think that wind was NOT a factor.

With so much contradictions between the various times I don't feel like doing any more calculations until you all agree.

I'll add this : my impression is that Franck Schleck produced the higher Watts/kg on that climb as he was alone for most of the climb.
 
jens_attacks said:
that video is corrupt.
halamala's times of verbier are all correct

me, i started the stopwatch on verbier a little earlier,from 8,5 km to go

58407243994843384632.jpg


Verbier par Villette Le Chable(carrefour Le Chable-Route de Verbier)
2012:8,5 km@7,5%---22:00---average speed 23.18 km/h(Rui Costa)
2009:8,5 km@7,5%---20:55---average speed 24.38 km/h(Alberto Contador)
2008:9,7 km@7,3%---25:00---average speed 23.28 km/h(Kim Kirchen)

If I remember correctly that screen capture is well before the roundabout at 825m altitude (not 821 m. that I had quoted before)

Your comparisons make no sense:
You don't have a well defined starting point, with altitude well determined.
Same for finish.
 
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jens_attacks said:
the start is the same portoleau used in 2009.he says that the carrefour le chable-route de verbier is at 8,5 km to go.the finish was the same in 2009 and this year.

in 2008,the finish was different,they stopped higher.

From that cross roads by google maps is 8400. The finish is in the carpark off the Ch. de Cli.

OK, so what is the time from there to the top? Halamala has a time of 21:45 for 8.3km, Parullo has one of 22:19 from 8.1km to the finish. Something is clearly wrong.

Very hard to get good estimates without good data in the first place :(

I'm giving up. If Parullo has his time right at 22:19 he's held about 6w/kg. If not then 6.6 it is.