Power Data Estimates for the climbing stages

[thehog]

Climb 1:


@vetoo: Stage 18. Alpe d'Huez 1 (12.15 km, 8.56 %, 1039 m). Maillot Jaune group: 39 min 26 sec, 18.49 Kph, VAM 1581 m/h, 5.54 W/kg [DrF].

That seems very fast considering the size of the group.

 

[thehog]

#TDF, Alpe d'Huez (13.80 km, 8.11 %). Nairo Quintana ["55 kg"]: 39:50.
DrF: 6.00 W/kg. CPL: 6.30 W/kg. BCR: 6.40 W/kg. rst: 6.45 W/kg.

 

[Ferminal]

If he loses any more weight he may start pushing 8 W/kg like Rujano.

 

[DirtyWorks]

OK. What I don't get why the focus should be to keep a lid on performance, when we should be focussed on keeping a lid on doping. The two are not the same thing.

It's not limiting performance, it's measuring it.

Power increases significantly in highly trained athletes on oxygen vector doping routines. It's a strong signal a rider is doping with the good stuff.

All of which is moot when most organizers will not pay for the EPO test. That leaves the UCI ordering the test at the right time, out of competition, and then actually processing a positive.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Heard on twitter:

@veloclinic @ammattipyoraily @Scienceofsport K.A.Arvesen said Froome's numbers up Madone while commentating on Eurosport(norway) today

@veloclinic @ammattipyoraily @Scienceofsport didn't say accurat time, but accurat power:-o Arvesen:"Around 40 min and 456 watts before tour"

I assume he must've meant around 30 min.

 

[the sceptic]

Heard on twitter:





I assume he must've meant around 30 min.

Getting close to the magical 7.0w/kg

 

[DirtyWorks]

I said in an earlier post that you would be having data for different type of riders. So you are bound to have data for sprinters as well as GT contenders. In a various type of races. I am sure scientific community is able to establish some boundaries in specific circumstances based on that.

The data is self-sorting. If you want to geek-out, work up a relatively simple formula that samples climb power then factors in overall time on the event as well as the climb itself should be sufficient.

You are going to be testing either TT's or very hilly to mountainous stages. A rouler's type of stage, or a flat one, will not be meaningful data.

 

[Arnout]

#TDF, Alpe d'Huez (13.80 km, 8.11 %). Nairo Quintana ["55 kg"]: 39:50.
DrF: 6.00 W/kg. CPL: 6.30 W/kg. BCR: 6.40 W/kg. rst: 6.45 W/kg.

His weight on Movistar website is listed as 59kg, on Wiki 57.5. What's the source for the 55?

 

[acoggan]

Power increases significantly in highly trained athletes on oxygen vector doping routines. It's a strong signal a rider is doping with the good stuff.

"Power increases significant in highly trained athletes on good training routines. It's a strong signal a rider is training with the good stuff." <- See the problem?

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

#TDF, Alpe d'Huez (13.80 km, 8.11 %). Nairo Quintana ["55 kg"]: 39:50.
DrF: 6.00 W/kg. CPL: 6.30 W/kg. BCR: 6.40 W/kg. rst: 6.45 W/kg.

So, do we ban him for two years, or what?

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

It's not limiting performance, it's measuring it.

Power increases significantly in highly trained athletes on oxygen vector doping routines. It's a strong signal a rider is doping with the good stuff.

All of which is moot when most organizers will not pay for the EPO test. That leaves the UCI ordering the test at the right time, out of competition, and then actually processing a positive.

Measuring performance tells you what happened. It doesn't tell you why.

 

[trackforfield10]

I herd IT'S OVER 9000!

 

[zastomito]

Measuring performance tells you what happened. It doesn't tell you why.

Just don't think that 'we really don't know so it might be possible' is the right attitude. It is a correct one but absolutely safe. Reminds me of a quote from JFK that theoretical physics can prove that an elephant can hang from a cliff with its tail tied to a daisy.
Out of curiosity under which conditions would you be willing to say based on the power numbers that somebody is doping?

 

[Escarabajo]

#TDF, Alpe d'Huez (13.80 km, 8.11 %). Nairo Quintana ["55 kg"]: 39:50.
DrF: 6.00 W/kg. CPL: 6.30 W/kg. BCR: 6.40 W/kg. rst: 6.45 W/kg.

Your weight for Quintana looks too low. I have around 6 watts/kilogram for him in Alpe d'Huez.

If this guy had not shown anything from day one I'd be the first one to point the finger at him. But he has been doing this on a regular basis from day 1. Some comments from an article mentioned him with a VO2 max of 91 mL/(kg·min).

Lemond looked exited talking to him in the podium in Paris. It looks like he wanted to keep talking to him.

Something else. It looks like he does not use power meter. So don't bother asking him for his power files.

 

[Almeisan]

Maybe he would have won the TdF if he did have a power meter. Seems that in some stages he suffered because he didnt have one.

Also, when estimating power, weight doesn't enter the equation. That's also why the result is in watts/kg.

I do wonder though how inaccurate the formulas get for ether very heavy or very light riders.

 

[Almeisan]

Measuring performance tells you what happened. It doesn't tell you why.

So when performances go down, it is a sign that the peloton is cleaner (universally accepted and cited). But when it goes back up again, it doesn't tell you anything?


Hmmm, makes sense. Did you get your PhD from Coyle as well?


Unless science can confirm that there are genetic outliers possible that have unusual quirks that allow them to ride a TdF top10 with their hemoglobin levels naturally keeping level, all this talk is nonsense anyway.

So, do we ban him for two years, or what?

pretty sure we can ban him for 2 years based off his biological passport.

 

[Netserk]

Maybe he would have won the TdF if he did have a power meter. Seems that in some stages he suffered because he didnt have one.

Also, when estimating power, weight doesn't enter the equation. That's also why the result is in watts/kg.

I do wonder though how inaccurate the formulas get for ether very heavy or very light riders.

That would be true if the bikes weighted 0kg.

For a lighter rider the dead weight of bike and gear is relatively bigger than of a heavier rider.

 

[Escarabajo]

Maybe he would have won the TdF if he did have a power meter. Seems that in some stages he suffered because he didnt have one.

Also, when estimating power, weight doesn't enter the equation. That's also why the result is in watts/kg.

I do wonder though how inaccurate the formulas get for ether very heavy or very light riders.

That's incorrect!

So gravity is not an issue?

 

[Almeisan]

It's not incorrect. You calculate based off VAM. If you think VAM is not about gravity, you need to rethink VAM. If you weight more or less is already reflected in your VAM. And hence the result is in he unit of watts/kg, not watts.

Weight doesn't enter the equation. That's a fact. And that's why I wonder about how outliers in weight like, Quintana and Voigt, skew the formula that's based off your average climber. The ratio of bike weight to bodyweight changes.

 

[Netserk]

It's not incorrect. You calculate based off VAM. If you think VAM is not about gravity, you need to rethink VAM. If you weight more or less is already reflected in your VAM. And hence the result is in he unit of watts/kg, not watts.

Weight doesn't enter the equation. That's a fact. And that's why I wonder about how outliers in weight like, Quintana and Voigt, skew the formula that's based off your average climber. The ratio of bike weight to bodyweight changes.

That's only true for Ferrari's formula. Other formulas include weight in the calculations. (which they should)

 

[zigmeister]

So when performances go down, it is a sign that the peloton is cleaner (universally accepted and cited). But when it goes back up again, it doesn't tell you anything?


Hmmm, makes sense. Did you get your PhD from Coyle as well?


Unless science can confirm that there are genetic outliers possible that have unusual quirks that allow them to ride a TdF top10 with their hemoglobin levels naturally keeping level, all this talk is nonsense anyway.




pretty sure we can ban him for 2 years based off his biological passport.

Do you not believe the fact that more Sherpas in Nepal have scaled Everest than any other people as evidence of genetic differences in humans?

Is this due to shear numbers attempting, or the fact that they are physiologically superior than others?

 

[Escarabajo]

It's not incorrect. You calculate based off VAM. If you think VAM is not about gravity, you need to rethink VAM. If you weight more or less is already reflected in your VAM. And hence the result is in he unit of watts/kg, not watts.

Weight doesn't enter the equation. That's a fact. And that's why I wonder about how outliers in weight like, Quintana and Voigt, skew the formula that's based off your average climber. The ratio of bike weight to bodyweight changes.

I never use VAM. I use the energy equation integrated for power. In other words energy over power. It is called physics. VAM is an empirical calculation. The energy equation is a natural law. It is not empirical. And it includes weight. Because of the gravitational portion of the energy equation.

The equation can be found everywhere:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_performance

http://www.mne.psu.edu/lamancusa/ProdDiss/Bicycle/bike calc eqs.pdf

http://www.oocities.org/mdetting/sports/cycling.html

 

[zastomito]

Is this due to shear numbers attempting, or the fact that they are physiologically superior than others?

I would say it's because that's their livelihood.

 

[Almeisan]

That's incorrect!

So gravity is not an issue?

You do not know what 'estimating' means?

I have a degree in physics and biology, you can link wiki pages and vaguely remember the concept of 'integral'.

Do you not believe the fact that more Sherpas in Nepal have scaled Everest than any other people as evidence of genetic differences in humans?

Is this due to shear numbers attempting, or the fact that they are physiologically superior than others?

Not sure if this is meant as ridicule or not.


Take Armstrong's blood passport as an example, is that a typical way in which hemoglobin values develop over a 3 week almost daily endurance competition? Or are there people who, without medical assistance, respond differently?

 

[zigmeister]

What I'm saying is the fact that there have been studies of Sherpas and their abillity to do pretty incredible things at altitude. So the point is, why bother looking at the scientific evidence right?

There are many many studies done as comparisons between the Sherpa over the last 40yrs.