Power meters: is Quintana right that they should be banned?

[MatParker117]

Re: Re:

Technology is turning racing into robotics. I'd love to see it kicked out of racing. Fine for prep.

If that's the case back to steel bikes, wool jerseys and no helmets. Sport needs to be seen to move with the times, next big leap for cycling is AR.

Excuse my ignorance but what is AR ?

Augmented Reality, imagine power data, time gaps, stage length etc on a HUD.

 

[LaFlorecita]

What in the seven heavens is a HUD?

 

[MatParker117]

Re:

What in the seven heavens is a HUD?

head up display

 

[Nick C.]

Re: Power meters: is Quintana right that they should be bann

Well,it looks like Valverde is backtracking a bit on this subject and i can't blame him for doing it.

Valverde was also about the ongoing issue of power meters and he claimed that his comments "had been taken out of context. Nobody said they were bad, or anything like that. Simply I wanted to say that with them, everything is much more controlled - breakaways, performance - but I'm not saying they're bad, not in the slightest."
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vuelta-a-espana-quintana-takes-it-steady-after-losing-mountain-duel/

Probably some power meter company is a part sponsor or his agent told him he is cutting off a potential source of post-retirement income.

 

[qwerty16]

No.

 

[vedrafjord]

Re:

I don't think there would be massive obstacles in the way to doing so if the UCI wanted; they are not manufactured by big powerhouses like Shimano or Specialized who would lobby hard to retain them.

You'll be able to buy Shimano power meters in the new year: http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2016/06/shimano-dura-ace-power-meter.html - at first it's going to be an optional Dura Ace extra, but in usual Shimano fashion it will probably become a standard Dura Ace component and/or gradually roll out to Ultegra/105. If I was a small power meter maker I'd be worried right now.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

...
One way of improving entertainment value is to bring us better data on what's going on with riders via televised telemetry, including power data.

That would bore the hell out of me to be honest.

Plus it would make cycling even more like some sort of Formula one which is the opposite of what is needed ! More mystery, more uncertainty, more focus on the individual riders themselves, less on the team, the data, the mechanical...

Join my fixed wheel campaign

Chris Froome agrees with you KB!!! Let's make this happen

Red Hook Crit stage racing... It could be awesome (at least a front brake should be fitted though...).

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

Of course it would be more exciting. You wouldn't get Wout Poels on the front of the biggest race of the year,4 riding at a steady 6w/kg ignoring any attacks and gradually reeling everyone back in. You wouldn't get the breakaway always being caught in hilly one day races, because the pack can make a simple maths calculation to bring them back in.

And in general, there would be a lot more doubt. Some riders use their power meter less than others, but all use them. If a rider goes on an ambitious attack, everyone will look down and realise it's not sustainable. Without power meters the doubt is there; is he going too fast or do I just have bad legs today? More doubt and uncertainty leads to moe exciting racing. It's a lot braver to let a rider go on a climb if you don't know for sure that he's going at an unsustainable pace.

You're ascribing magical powers to power meters that simply don't exist. Lanky Poels isn't going to forget how to ride threshold just because he doesn't have a power meter, especially if he trains with one, and double especially if he still gets a speedometer.

And power meters have zero relevance to bringing a break back, especially on a hilly course where descending skill comes into play. You say a "simple maths calculation" - what calculation is that?

As for knowing that another rider's attack is sustainable, surely for that you'd need to see not only *his* power meter, but his training data too?

Another point is: even if it was hard to pace yourself climbing on your own, being in a group has a natural smoothing out effect as people adjust to each others' paces. I've noticed this both cycling and running. the whole group isn't going to randomly speed up or slow down at the same time.

Banning power meters would have an extremely minimal effect on racing. I also don't want cycling going even further down the Formula One road of randomly banning things and weird gimmicky regulations. I don't understand where people get the idea that if there were no power meters or race radios, Sky's domestiques would no longer be among the strongest climbers in the peloton, or riders would suddenly start attacking from 50km out.

I disagree with every point you have made here. It's like you have never ridden with a power meter and don't really understand how they work.

If you disagree then explain why.

Yeah, I'd like to hear his rationale as well.

I understand power meters and power meter data better than most, and I have raced (and trained) with them as well as coached many riders with power, and have done so for a long time.

In road racing the impact of visible power data is being overblown.

 

[meat puppet]

Just ban them in races. Along with computers and heart rate monitors. If PMs cannot be taken away completely, at least ban visible data during races, just like on the track.

If the visible data is no Big deal, why have it available in the first place and/or resist banning it?

 

[B_Ugli]

Re: Power meters: is Quintana right that they should be bann

Looks very much a power meter in use here

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/nairo-quintanas-tour-de-france-canyon-ultimate-cf-slx-1/

So he thinks power meters should be banned but he is happy to use one..................WTF???

How stupid a comment is that ? he plays by the rule in place, not having a power meter would be a big disadvantage in race and for data analysis later. Doesn't mean he can't oppose their presence.

If you are a pro tennis player and think that the game would be better with only one serve, does it mean you should forbid yourself from using 2 ???

Its not a rule that all Pro-Tour riders have power meters - they do so by choice. To paraphrase what he said "I'd be the first in line to say they should be banned."

If he feels so strongly a bold move would be to take it off his bike during races and invite his competitors to do the same.

Like I say power meters are not mandatory so your logic about rules is rubbish.

 

[veji11]

Re: Power meters: is Quintana right that they should be bann

Looks very much a power meter in use here

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/nairo-quintanas-tour-de-france-canyon-ultimate-cf-slx-1/

So he thinks power meters should be banned but he is happy to use one..................WTF???

How stupid a comment is that ? he plays by the rule in place, not having a power meter would be a big disadvantage in race and for data analysis later. Doesn't mean he can't oppose their presence.

If you are a pro tennis player and think that the game would be better with only one serve, does it mean you should forbid yourself from using 2 ???

Its not a rule that all Pro-Tour riders have power meters - they do so by choice. To paraphrase what he said "I'd be the first in line to say they should be banned."

If he feels so strongly a bold move would be to take it off his bike during races and invite his competitors to do the same.

Like I say power meters are not mandatory so your logic about rules is rubbish.

You don't get it, you play with the tools at your disposal, even though you think they are not good for the sport, once you start the race you do so to win. There is no hypocrisy in saying you think they are a bad thing yet using them since they are part of the toolbow.

 

[Winnats]

Re: Power meters: is Quintana right that they should be bann

Should we ban Rev counters in racing cars? And what would be the effect? (I'm not talking here about F1 since we know they would just engineer around the problem, but real racing cars)

Probably wouldn't significantly change the outcome of many races; it may change some races as occasionally a driver will be concentrating on his line and forget to listen to his ears and then blow the motor. Good drivers would still win.

Doubtful it would make the racing overall generally more exciting, unless you specifically think the sight of bits of con rod spitting out of the engine is exciting.

 

[red zone]

Re: Power meters: is Quintana right that they should be bann

Should we ban Rev counters in racing cars? And what would be the effect? (I'm not talking here about F1 since we know they would just engineer around the problem, but real racing cars)

Probably wouldn't significantly change the outcome of many races; it may change some races as occasionally a driver will be concentrating on his line and forget to listen to his ears and then blow the motor. Good drivers would still win.

Doubtful it would make the racing overall generally more exciting, unless you specifically think the sight of bits of con rod spitting out of the engine is exciting.

I don't understand posters like you who keep saying power meters don't have much of a effect yet are terrified to ban them .

 

[Winnats]

Re: Power meters: is Quintana right that they should be bann

Should we ban Rev counters in racing cars? And what would be the effect? (I'm not talking here about F1 since we know they would just engineer around the problem, but real racing cars)

Probably wouldn't significantly change the outcome of many races; it may change some races as occasionally a driver will be concentrating on his line and forget to listen to his ears and then blow the motor. Good drivers would still win.

Doubtful it would make the racing overall generally more exciting, unless you specifically think the sight of bits of con rod spitting out of the engine is exciting.

I don't understand posters like you who keep saying power meters don't have much of a effect yet are terrified to ban them .

Where did I say that? I was posting an analogy to help think through the issue. I don't know if I would like race a car without a rev counter; would you? It's just a question.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Power meters: is Quintana right that they should be bann

Should we ban Rev counters in racing cars? And what would be the effect? (I'm not talking here about F1 since we know they would just engineer around the problem, but real racing cars)

Probably wouldn't significantly change the outcome of many races; it may change some races as occasionally a driver will be concentrating on his line and forget to listen to his ears and then blow the motor. Good drivers would still win.

Doubtful it would make the racing overall generally more exciting, unless you specifically think the sight of bits of con rod spitting out of the engine is exciting.

This is completely irrelevant unless you think a cyclists femurs are going to come out through their quadriceps if they don't have their power meter.

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Power meters: is Quintana right that they should be bann

Should we ban Rev counters in racing cars? And what would be the effect? (I'm not talking here about F1 since we know they would just engineer around the problem, but real racing cars)

Probably wouldn't significantly change the outcome of many races; it may change some races as occasionally a driver will be concentrating on his line and forget to listen to his ears and then blow the motor. Good drivers would still win.

Doubtful it would make the racing overall generally more exciting, unless you specifically think the sight of bits of con rod spitting out of the engine is exciting.

Personally I don't think that's a great analogy. I don't cycle with a power meter, and I'm fine. A rev counter gives you an indication of something that isn't part of you; an engine may blow with a Rev counter or without even making that much of a bad noise. I also wouldn't like to drive without a Rev counter, but that's because I'm not feeling it, I don't literally sense something inside me.

That analogy also misses the point here. In a motor race, you drive flat out, and change gears. In a bike race, it's all about how to use your energy, and your body itself should realise when you go too fast or too slow depending on how you feel or what you know about yourself, not what a mini-computer on your bike knows about you.

Let's say there's a bike rider (without a power meter) that feels really good on a climb, and is going up faster than he would normally because he's feeling so good. In this scenario, he'd think about what's best for him depending on how he feels, not how many watts he is pushing.

Same scenario, but with a power meter. This time, he starts pushing hard, then he realises that the watts he is pushing are too high and slow down, to conserve energy. Having power meters ruins the suspense of it, the wondering of how much left you have in the tank. In other words, it removes so much of the skill that you should have as a bike rider.

And as DFA says rightly, the likes of Poels and co ride up a mountain not caring what other people do, just looking at their meter, knowing they're putting out 5.8 w/kg or whatever and keep doing that, because they know they can. Sure, a rider might know anyway, but that's not certain. The some of the best stages with most attacks are the ones that a power meter doesn't work on (I'm thinking Porto Sant'Elpidio 2013). And clearly, if both Nibali and Quintana(!) and Valverde when he's not being gagged by sponsors and money say it has an effect on aggressive racing, there must be some sense in the argument. Even if you don't agree, then there is the argument that computers and stuff are turning bike races into a type of F1 races, where looking at numbers counts as much as skill.

 

[red zone]

Re: Power meters: is Quintana right that they should be bann

Should we ban Rev counters in racing cars? And what would be the effect? (I'm not talking here about F1 since we know they would just engineer around the problem, but real racing cars)

Probably wouldn't significantly change the outcome of many races; it may change some races as occasionally a driver will be concentrating on his line and forget to listen to his ears and then blow the motor. Good drivers would still win.

Doubtful it would make the racing overall generally more exciting, unless you specifically think the sight of bits of con rod spitting out of the engine is exciting.

I don't understand posters like you who keep saying power meters don't have much of a effect yet are terrified to ban them .

Where did I say that? I was posting an analogy to help think through the issue. I don't know if I would like race a car without a rev counter; would you? It's just a question.

it was a bad analogy since you can just install a rev limiter which would make sure you don't blow your engine , you can't do that with humans

good riders are still going to be good , it just puts the onus on them to be smart enough to gauge there own effort without the benefit of a mechanical device

hardcore fans will always watch , but if you want to attract new fans you have to try to create some excitement and there's nothing exciting watching a guy staring at his stem so he can pace himself up a mountain the most efficiently

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Power meters: is Quintana right that they should be bann

Should we ban Rev counters in racing cars? And what would be the effect? (I'm not talking here about F1 since we know they would just engineer around the problem, but real racing cars)

Probably wouldn't significantly change the outcome of many races; it may change some races as occasionally a driver will be concentrating on his line and forget to listen to his ears and then blow the motor. Good drivers would still win.

Doubtful it would make the racing overall generally more exciting, unless you specifically think the sight of bits of con rod spitting out of the engine is exciting.

I don't understand posters like you who keep saying power meters don't have much of a effect yet are terrified to ban them .

But why should they be prohibited?

This is such a non-issue. The real question is why is Quintana so worried about such a non-issue? It suggests to me his head is in the wrong place.

He got hosed going downhill at the TdF. Power meters must have been the reason for him losing time that day and making the racing boring.

 

[meat puppet]

This is not about quintana. It is about whether one thinks powermeters should be on board in races.

IMHO pms should not be on board because they help pacing and in so doing diminish the possibility for effort miscalculation and thus blowing up at key moments in races.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

This is not about quintana. It is about whether one thinks powermeters should be on board in races.

IMHO pms should not be on board because they help pacing and in so doing diminish the possibility for effort miscalculation and thus blowing up at key moments in races.

This exactly is my opinion. Calculating and managing your efforts is part of the challenge of racing. Power meters take away that aspect.

 

[cnfdugo]

Re: Re:

Red Hook Crit stage racing... It could be awesome (at least a front brake should be fitted though...).

Who in the peleton would sign up for this without batting an eye, Laurens ten Dam and Mark Cavendish maybe?

 

[el chava]

Re: Re:

This is not about quintana. It is about whether one thinks powermeters should be on board in races.

IMHO pms should not be on board because they help pacing and in so doing diminish the possibility for effort miscalculation and thus blowing up at key moments in races.

This exactly is my opinion. Calculating and managing your efforts is part of the challenge of racing. Power meters take away that aspect.

This. Whether or not PMs have impact on racing or not is not the question. It is a question whether you use a technological interface to measure your effort or the "traditional" means (emotions like pain/fatigue). Of course you could argue that speedometers and HR should not be allowed as well.

But what about when we have devices which measure lactate acid etc.? Should these be allowed as well?

Eventually you gotta ask yourself what competitive cycling really is all about.

By the way, somebody should do a poll on the use of PMs in the peloton and among the DS's.

 

[veji11]

Re: Re:

This is not about quintana. It is about whether one thinks powermeters should be on board in races.

IMHO pms should not be on board because they help pacing and in so doing diminish the possibility for effort miscalculation and thus blowing up at key moments in races.

This exactly is my opinion. Calculating and managing your efforts is part of the challenge of racing. Power meters take away that aspect.

This. Whether or not PMs have impact on racing or not is not the question. It is a question whether you use a technological interface to measure your effort or the "traditional" means (emotions like pain/fatigue). Of course you could argue that speedometers and HR should not be allowed as well.

But what about when we have devices which measure lactate acid etc.? Should these be allowed as well?

Eventually you gotta ask yourself what competitive cycling really is all about.

By the way, somebody should do a poll on the use of PMs in the peloton and among the DS's.

Yep, what happens when riders can have a simple sensor on the skin that measures lactates and other biochemicals to even better track and plan their effort.

This is why to me race radios, powermeters, cardios, should all be banned at least as readable elements on a bike : have a UCI issued speedometer/distance tracker for all and make all other info blind in race, the info can be tracked and analysed later by the team for all I care. But in race riders have to race with what they have : their body, their sensations, their will to endure longer.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

This is not about quintana. It is about whether one thinks powermeters should be on board in races.

IMHO pms should not be on board because they help pacing and in so doing diminish the possibility for effort miscalculation and thus blowing up at key moments in races.

This exactly is my opinion. Calculating and managing your efforts is part of the challenge of racing. Power meters take away that aspect.

Again, the effect of this overestimated. Let's say you're usually capable of 400W for 30 minutes. But you're not feeling good on a particular day, and when you try doing 400W for 30 mins, you end up blowing up after 28 mins, or alternatively on a good day you still have reserves in the tank and end up doing 440W for the last 5 minutes instead of spreading that energy more effectively.

Power meters aren't a magic switch. At the end of the day, it still comes down to calculating based off feeling and sensations

 

[veji11]

Re: Re:

This is not about quintana. It is about whether one thinks powermeters should be on board in races.

IMHO pms should not be on board because they help pacing and in so doing diminish the possibility for effort miscalculation and thus blowing up at key moments in races.

This exactly is my opinion. Calculating and managing your efforts is part of the challenge of racing. Power meters take away that aspect.

Again, the effect of this overestimated. Let's say you're usually capable of 400W for 30 minutes. But you're not feeling good on a particular day, and when you try doing 400W for 30 mins, you end up blowing up after 28 mins, or alternatively on a good day you still have reserves in the tank and end up doing 440W for the last 5 minutes instead of spreading that energy more effectively.

Power meters aren't a magic switch. At the end of the day, it still comes down to calculating based off feeling and sensations

I think some of you don't understand that for some of us it's, just as earpieces, as much of a matter of principle as it is a matter of actually proven efficiency. The key principle here is that we want to put the champion back in the center of the stage, to give him a chance to shine and to fail by himself, with only his fellow riders on the road with him. Earpieces and powermeters are part of a general web of control that is thrown over the race to calibrate it and reduce uncertainty as much as possible. The goal is to let the race breath again. Same reasonning behind smaller teams. Less control, more importance for the individual rider and champion in the actual making of the race, the actual writing of the story unfolding on the road in front of our eyes !