Power Outputs Contador & Wiggins

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Mar 13, 2009
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LugHugger said:
it's worth considering that whilst wiggins had spent the last few years with a foot in both camps, he was still in a full competitive track programme over each winter between road seasons. clearly, this would have impacted on his road performances what with the additional muscle mass required for the track. imo, wiggins never attempted to lose this mass during his abbreviated road season in order to maintain his WC/Olympic competitiveness.
actually, not correct. Wiggins did step back, I know he won 2007. But he did not ride 2006 Worlds, think that was Escobars.

Why is everyone ignoring the past examples,

Escobar, Bartko, Lehmann, Mcgee. Mcgee lost a truckload of weight, he went from coming second to Ullrich in a Tour de Suisse chrono, to pack fodder in the Tour chronos when the peloton came "a juiced". Mcgee weighed lighter than Wiggins does now, or about the same, but with potential to get under his weight by the end. Wiggins could really not atrophy further during a GT.

And imo, Mcgee would have been faster than Wiggins in the IP, had he stayed 74/75 kgs, and held that anaerobic power, versus completely crossing to the road circa 2003, looking at the classement. After Cooke had green, he then went to look for a classification result.

Just because Mcgee could not do it, does not mean Wiggins could not. In my estimate, Mcgee was a better track rider, but because he was getting 1 million euro at FDJ, he pursued the road, and never could match Wiggins when he had the specificity and track preparation.

But the road is much more complicated with a greater demand on the energy systems and recovery. Mcgee could not recover. Partly because did not get the recovery hormones, and partly because he never had increased his O2 capacity through illegal means.

If Wiggins wants to prove to us he can do it clean, he needs more than one season. This is just no right. And he started out at Linda Mac fiasco in 2000 I think, and in 2003 was at Francaise des Jeux. He has been on the road along time, and never showed he could win a prologue or timetrial, let alone a GC shot at the Tour.

Now if Wiggins was on the Astana and Contador medical program, he would be threatening Contador. As is, he has to have the transfusion prior to the Tour, and maintain the ruse of plausible deniability for Vaughters.

What does his palmares look like, remembering he was 100% road in 2006, and the other years, he may have shown up for Manchester UCI Cup, and the Worlds. He has won nothing, nada. A l'Avenir prologue, a l'Avenir stage, plus one or two short tt's or prologues in races like Dunkirk. Roubaix Lille Metropole ride those races, there are div3 teams there.

He has shown nothing.

Yet we are to believe, he is such a committed trackie, that when he committed himself 100% to the road, his talent would manifest itself? Well, what about 2006? What about the other years? Were Madiot, Stapleton, and Legeay, plus Boyer, fools for paying him a road wage? Were they fools for not seeing his GC potential?

Wiggins has made alot of us fools, in either way.

He was on the road, with full focus, previously. He did jack $hit. If he was as classy as everyone here suggests, he would have been like Mcgee and able to straddle both disciplines.

Mcgee may have beaten Bartko in 2000 without a broken collarbone, he then won a Tour prologue, he was 8th in the 2004 or 2005 Giro, and he animated Tour de Swiss classement on more than one year.

The Wiggins rationale here bursts at the seams as fraudulant.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Parrot23 said:
But there is one slight "detail" conveniently being overlooked, and this is the crux of the argument: Wiggo has dropped many kilograms compared with the past. This is the joker in the pack. On a single mountain stage (non-consecutive days), we have to prove that he has dropped more, or nearly as much, watts as kilos. Highly unlikely.

And there's another "detail". He was dropped yesterday on a second day in the mountains, consistent with the expected behaviour of GT newbie, whatever the absolute size of his engine/kgs on a single day when relatively fresh. Same in Giro, though there he's said to have backed off voluntarily (probably a forced choice!).
Mcgee was a better climber to start with AND lost weight.

Dont think he was dropped, he had a mechanical. And imo, you dont get dropped, if you mean the day before, that was just a slection, of the final 6. Being dropped is from outside the top dozen.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Parrot23 said:
There's probably also an element of GT snobbery in the attitude to Wiggo: "GT's are where the 'men' play; we follow GTs and ride on the road; how dare an interloper make any claims here?" Exactly the same thing happens on forums: new posters are typically regarded as newbies to cycling. A logical and empirical fallacy (a non-sequitur) and a common mistake by veteran posters. Some reign with a sort of patronage surveying their props, noticing outsiders coming in, with a strong need to keep all their marbles lined up and to "nose around" putative newbies. :rolleyes:

It's the same with Wiggo, an outsider. Wiggo himself talks about the Schlecks having their undies in a knot because he was there on some of the climbs, as in, "Get out of here; we own this". Sorta like Iron men triathlon guys looking down at the shorter distance triathletes.
Hey, I love the track.

And thought Wiggins was the real deal on the track. Now I am angry, and re-assessing my assumption of his track performances as genuine.

I think the GB program are dirty. Just like the other programs on the track, not many clean winners. I have followed Bartko's career on the road, long before Wiggins, and then followed Mcgee and Escobar. Expecting results. None really were forthcoming. Some others need to reassess the track imo.
 
May 12, 2009
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Why do you say McGee was a better climber? I liked him, but really he had the one good Giro and not a lot of other big results in climbing races, with much more focus on the road than what Wiggins had until this year.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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slcbiker said:
Why do you say McGee was a better climber? I liked him, but really he had the one good Giro and not a lot of other big results in climbing races, with much more focus on the road than what Wiggins had until this year.
think he showed in about 2003, the year Casagrande won the Suisse, Mcgee showed he could hang. "Hang" is all it was. But he showed something. Just one stage. But alot more than Wiggins did.

At the Giro, I was defending Wiggins, with the weightloss rationale, to a friend who asserted he was surely on a program. He may not have been then, but I am the one who lost credibility for defending him.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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so because he couldn't beat a dope-up Vino in '07 he must be doping now. Got it.

You're a complete low-life idiot. I'm done with you people.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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131313 said:
so because he couldn't beat a dope-up Vino in '07 he must be doping now. Got it.

You're a complete low-life idiot. I'm done with you people.
you responding to me?

prove to me Vino was doped for the chrono? When did the test come back. For that day, or after. If it was for that day, I accept he was doped. If it was for the next stage, I cannot accept he was doped for the chrono. You need to prove to me he was doped for the chrono.

No proof, I cannot believe it. I am about fed up with these idiots here.


(see two people can play this game)
 
Apr 11, 2009
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blackcat said:
Dont think he was dropped, he had a mechanical. And imo, you dont get dropped, if you mean the day before, that was just a slection, of the final 6. Being dropped is from outside the top dozen.
No, there was NO mechanical.

He was in trouble, as in "tired", and not with the leaders, or behind (just read Vaughter's Twitter). This business about being "dropped" meaning out of the top dozen is a load of semantic games meaning nothing (it's nonsense, an empty facade, reaching for straws, a pretense of an argument). The point is he wasn't with the leaders, JUST as you would expect on a 2nd day in the mountains for a newbie to GTs (he's never gone for the overall before).

And today in the TT, his peformance is entirely consistent with someone who is tiring more than the GT vets (esp. slower on the downhill and flat second half vs. the GC contenders, precisely where he would normally be expected to excel).

With refills etc. this would NOT happen given his absolute (watts) and relative (watts/kg) power.

Aldag is no fool and certainly not burying his head in the sand. If you know more than Aldag at Columbia, be my guest, but it takes some conceit. Simply not credible on your point.

Aldag is not in the least suprised by Wiggo at Tour (hardly the kind of guy to stick his head in the sand, given the riders he works with, including Pinotti and Grabsch):

""I saw the big potential in him, we saw his SRM files," continued Aldag. "It's not a big surprise he's doing so well here. We have his files from the [2008] Giro team time trial and the wattage he posted there, it's incredible. He was incredibly strong. You see that number, you see he's tall and skinny, and he loses six more kilograms… it's just a question of his ambition."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/alda...news_headlines

Remember, these are the comments of someone who doesn't personally like Wiggins and is the interview to rebut Wiggo's dissatisfaction at Columbia.

FYI: This does not seem to be about Wiggins: this is in fact about YOU. You need to find another cause. These boards seem to be a forum for people to work out their personality disorders.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Parrot23 said:
No, there was NO mechanical.

He was in trouble, as in "tired", and not with the leaders, or behind (just read Vaughter's Twitter). This business about being "dropped" meaning out of the top dozen is a load of semantic games meaning nothing (it's nonsense, an empty facade, reaching for straws, a pretense of an argument). The point is he wasn't with the leaders, JUST as you would expect on a 2nd day in the mountains for a newbie to GTs (he's never gone for the overall before).

And today in the TT, his peformance is entirely consistent with someone who is tiring more than the GT vets (esp. slower on the downhill and flat second half vs. the GC contenders, precisely where he would normally be expected to excel).

With refills etc. this would NOT happen given his absolute (watts) and relative (watts/kg) power.

Aldag is no fool and certainly not burying his head in the sand. If you know more than Aldag at Columbia, be my guest, but it takes some conceit. Simply not credible on your point.

Aldag is not in the least suprised by Wiggo at Tour (hardly the kind of guy to stick his head in the sand, given the riders he works with, including Pinotti and Grabsch):

""I saw the big potential in him, we saw his SRM files," continued Aldag. "It's not a big surprise he's doing so well here. We have his files from the [2008] Giro team time trial and the wattage he posted there, it's incredible. He was incredibly strong. You see that number, you see he's tall and skinny, and he loses six more kilograms… it's just a question of his ambition."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/alda...news_headlines

Remember, these are the comments of someone who doesn't personally like Wiggins and is the interview to rebut Wiggo's dissatisfaction at Columbia.

FYI: This does not seem to be about Wiggins: this is in fact about YOU. You need to find another cause. These boards seem to be a forum for people to work out their personality disorders.
refills?

who cares about RE-fills.

I care about F I L L S.

There was something about Wiggins getting towed back to the bunch, by Millar, on the second mtn day. Are we talking Haussler stage?

Now, on the other one. He certainly has not been dropped. He is consistently making the selection with the last dozen, and forcing selection on occasion.

His wife had said, he was not dropped, on the Haussler stage. It was a mechanical.
 
Jul 11, 2009
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Wheels Go Round and Round said:
So how much dope is Contador on and how long til he is busted?
Your absolute brilliance really comes through in your remarkable and insightful posts. Lets have a look at what a true LA fanboy thinks.

"it's a matter of time before they bust Contador... the guy is big time on dope"
"Lance won't win the tour on Sunday... he will win it a few months later when they announce Contador is a doper"
"no doubt, the kid is a punk"
"exactly... Contador has A LOT TO LEARN
good grief what a rookie move... dump your team mate who is trying to get the podium"
"all they need to do is open the doping file on Contador"
"right... winning the tour of Poland, that shows unbelieveable time trialing ability. Mark my words Contador will show up as a doper there have been numerous clips of Liggett and Sherwin in the past saying his time trialing was sub par.... then in 2007 this guy comes out blasting people"
"Contador was NOT a good time trialer until just a few yrs ago. He was a "work" in progress. Now all of a sudden this guy is one of the best in the world at 135 lbs..... real simple here guys........"
"doping without a doubt someone that small cannot time trial at the speeds he does either"

"No but I am sure I have raced at a higher level than you but then again we have established that you are indeed an Internet douchebag"


As for your post about small guys and TT, its the bloody 3rd week of the tour, of course smaller guys are going to have the advantage over the true TTs now, they haven't had to drag the same bulk over repeated mountain passes. This alone proves to me your a fatass sitting behind your computer with absolutely no knowledge of bike racing and what happens to the human body after a sustained 21 day race. Go take your fanboyism over to the Livestrong forums, your opinions and thoughts are totally useless.

Oh and one more thing, guys that CAN TT well.

Contador 61 kg
Leipheimer 62 kg
Klöden 63 kg
Evans 64 kg
Marco Pinotti 66 kg
Chris Boardman 69 kg

Damn it dood, small guys can't TT, I've raced and I know my sheet. :rolleyes:
 
Jun 18, 2009
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blackcat said:
you responding to me?

prove to me Vino was doped for the chrono? When did the test come back. For that day, or after. If it was for that day, I accept he was doped. If it was for the next stage, I cannot accept he was doped for the chrono. You need to prove to me he was doped for the chrono.
he tested positive on the sample taken right after the stage, genius. Of course, maybe he just decided to top up with someone's bloodafter the stage.

blackcat said:
No proof, I cannot believe it. I am about fed up with these idiots here.


(see two people can play this game)
well, unfortunately it's not a game to me, it's what I do for a living. And I'll tell you right now that if the unsubstantiated nonsensical libelous statements continue, someone's going to feel it where it hurts. Just because it's the internet doesn't mean you're anonymous or that you can freely slander people.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Parrot23 a question?

whatever the weightloss Wiggins he has had, can he maintain all of his threshold power, or do you concede he would have had to lose some power, not in proportion to his weightloss, but, some power.

Seems it is only blue sky. Lets lose the weight, and reap the benefits. You must think the peloton is stupid, like the soundbites Liggett and Sherwen regurgitate.

Advantages that exist, and are known, will be neutralised by the peloton. Everyone will pursue those advantages. It is when improvements come, from seemingly obvious sectors, one must be sceptical.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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131313 said:
he tested positive on the sample taken right after the stage, genius. Of course, maybe he just decided to top up with someone's bloodafter the stage.



well, unfortunately it's not a game to me, it's what I do for a living. And I'll tell you right now that if the unsubstantiated nonsensical libelous statements continue, someone's going to feel it where it hurts. Just because it's the internet doesn't mean you're anonymous or that you can freely slander people.
the post of mine was meta.

It was channelling someone :cool: <went over your head obviously>
 
Jul 19, 2009
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wiggintona said:
The link to Ashendens interview reveals a couple of things:

1) He did not do the testing and relied on the tester to tell him what he did. He then said he believed him.... so what !! Do you think the tester is going to say that he did something wrong.

2) The timeline when the reporter got the rider codes and names and the testing has not been nailed down so we don't know if it was possible to fix the test.

3) Ashenden claims it would be almost impossible to spike the sample properly so that the results seemed plausible. But he offers no proof of that.

4) Since the half life of the Synth.EPO is 3 to 4 days why did more of the 13 samples not show some evidence of EPO.

Trust no one son, especially axe grinders
If you trust no one, then why trust the cyclists themselves who time and again break the rules surrounding out of competition testing, refuse to provide supplementary evidence that will clear their name and offer up these half baked excuses like LHTL increases my hct by 10%? Those bogus excuses may fool the layperson but it doesn't fool an expert.

Asho is passionate about what he does (I've known the guy personally for 10yrs) and he is a world class scientist whom is on the board of the UCI doping anti-panel. If he doesn't offer proof in an interview that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. He is giving you his expert opinion which is very likely far more knowledgable than yours (no offense intended).
 
Jul 7, 2009
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LargusMeans said:
Your absolute brilliance really comes through in your remarkable and insightful posts. Lets have a look at what a true LA fanboy thinks.

"it's a matter of time before they bust Contador... the guy is big time on dope"
"Lance won't win the tour on Sunday... he will win it a few months later when they announce Contador is a doper"
"no doubt, the kid is a punk"
"exactly... Contador has A LOT TO LEARN
good grief what a rookie move... dump your team mate who is trying to get the podium"
"all they need to do is open the doping file on Contador"
"right... winning the tour of Poland, that shows unbelieveable time trialing ability. Mark my words Contador will show up as a doper there have been numerous clips of Liggett and Sherwin in the past saying his time trialing was sub par.... then in 2007 this guy comes out blasting people"
"Contador was NOT a good time trialer until just a few yrs ago. He was a "work" in progress. Now all of a sudden this guy is one of the best in the world at 135 lbs..... real simple here guys........"
"doping without a doubt someone that small cannot time trial at the speeds he does either"

"No but I am sure I have raced at a higher level than you but then again we have established that you are indeed an Internet douchebag"


As for your post about small guys and TT, its the bloody 3rd week of the tour, of course smaller guys are going to have the advantage over the true TTs now, they haven't had to drag the same bulk over repeated mountain passes. This alone proves to me your a fatass sitting behind your computer with absolutely no knowledge of bike racing and what happens to the human body after a sustained 21 day race. Go take your fanboyism over to the Livestrong forums, your opinions and thoughts are totally useless.

Oh and one more thing, guys that CAN TT well.

Contador 61 kg
Leipheimer 62 kg
Klöden 63 kg
Evans 64 kg
Marco Pinotti 66 kg
Chris Boardman 69 kg

Damn it dood, small guys can't TT, I've raced and I know my sheet. :rolleyes:
great to see you spent a half hr of your pathetic life to try to prove a point that is grounded on doping.... lol

get in the real world buddy
 
Jul 6, 2009
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blackcat said:
wrong. Won the Tour of Poland tt in 2004, always up there in the Paris Nice prologue, won the u23 Spanish chrono as first year espoir, and then he was signed by Saiz. Do some homework.
Now there's an endorsement for a clean program....;)
 
Mar 19, 2009
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I've talked directly to people who've seen him standing on the scale (which he has to do every day). He's about 71 kg.


the problem is that your 'opinion' is also an accusation, it's not based on scientific reality (which I've clearly explained and you chose to ignore) and is conflicted by a lot of direct evidence, much of which I've seen with my own two eyes. I have had amateur teammates doing over that wattage for twenty minutes. They're both very large riders.
If he only weighs 71 kg then he's even 'more' "JACKED" through the roof. LOL, 6 watts per kilo at FTP just does not happen cleanly. But then again, when JACKED on HGH, cortisol, cow blood it certainly does happen all the time.

There are lots of amateurs that are doped and would be good pros if they raced pro. Thats true. BTW, if you have a problem with my comments you can just put me on ignore. LOL

:)
 
Jul 11, 2009
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Wheels Go Round and Round said:
great to see you spent a half hr of your pathetic life to try to prove a point that is grounded on doping.... lol

get in the real world buddy
Actually if you had any wit or intelligence, you would know that I can click on your name and see all your posts at once. So to take 5 mins of my time to show that your a complete and total moron was ABSOLUTELY worth it. :D You flatter yourself far too much to think that it would take that much time to make you look like an idiot. :p
 
Mar 17, 2009
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""those guys will be making the podium of the Tour, and you will be defending them on the back of track endurance. Sure...

Certainly will not be defending them, only standing by Wiggins cos he is a fellow Brit and is showing his true form on the road, and he has not been beaten by those up and coming riders in a 4k pursuit- ignorant nuff nuff.

As for the others Phinney and co, they will be on the podium, pure speculation, they might end up being domestiques- and carry the drinks.

I do not think just cos he is better than McGee, that means he is cheating- who had one good Giro, and was as slow as a crippled tortoise at the Olympics- and our taxes pay for it. Over-rated for sure, like many others.

If Wiggons is sussed, what about those pusuiters who did 4.31's a few months ago then suddenly dropped to sub 20's- that went a little unnoticed.

Wiggins rate of improvement is less than others and I would be surprised if he was a doper.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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IF Wiggins is a doper then for me he is the worst of the lot. His comments about di luca on twitter, something like: 'di luca can't believe that guy what a w*nker', are inexcusable coming from a fellow doper.

I really hope wiggins isn't found positive as it makes a complete mockery of his ardent anti-doping stance. If you dope stay quite and hope you don't get caught.

For the record I believe he is clean, blagged by a PR stunt maybe but I would like to give Brad the benefit of the doubt, hopefully he is not a unctuous human being like so many of the other.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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uphillstruggle said:
IF Wiggins is a doper then for me he is the worst of the lot. His comments about di luca on twitter, something like: 'di luca can't believe that guy what a w*nker', are inexcusable coming from a fellow doper.

I.
BINGO! Thats why I hate this jackassss.
 
Apr 11, 2009
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BigBoat, yous' taking onboard H2O again. :D

You consistently start with a conclusion then work backwards toward the evidence and any "arguments" you can prop up, like cycling backwards.

National Enquirer has some truly amazing "evidence" in the body of the articles that follow the headlines, but it's entertaining--and sells good copy.

I've spotted some evidence here (sideburns):



Have also just spotted this: http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/article/96122/wiggins-says-he-s-focused-exclusively-on-the-tour-for-the

...And now think Bradley is now also taking on a little too much H2O too. ;)
 
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