Wheels Go Round and Round said:right... winning the tour of Poland, that shows unbelieveable time trialing ability. Mark my words Contador will show up as a doper
there have been numerous clips of Liggett and Sherwin in the past saying his time trialing was sub par.... then in 2007 this guy comes out blasting people
Dr. Ferrari used VAM to estimate W/kg and from that extrapolate power output. For Contador, his estimate was 417W (6.73 w/kg). A little lower, but still pretty close.Escarabajo said:I just finished doing the calculations for these two riders on the climb to Verbier.
Contador weight: 61 kg
Wiggins Weight: 76 Kg
Sandy Casar: 63 Kg
Drafting: 30% for Contador, 50% for Wiggins (+/-)
Head wind: zero (conservative approach)
Mechanical Efficiency of Bike: 98%
Length: 8.7 km
Contador Speed: 15.7 mph
Wiggins Speed: 14.9 mph
Casar Speed: 13.89 mph
Contador: 435 W (7.14 W/kg)
Wiggins 477 W (6.28 W/kg)
Casar: 379 W (6.00 W/kg)
Power Outputs from the following links are as follows:
Contador: 436 W, 435 W
Wiggins: 487 W, 484 W
Casar: 384 W, 381 W
Before you start protesting my numbers I have to say the following comments:
- I know, this is not the same as a power meter, but this is the equation used in physics for aerodynamics and other calculations. It will give you errors of course, but at least it should give you a comparative idea on how the riders are performing. And also helps to see what power ranges to expect.
- Don't be so surprised by the Wiggins numbers because the effort was done in slightly less than 22 minutes so it is easier to maintain this effort than over an hour of climbing distance. Besides the weight makes a big difference.
- I tried to be a little conservative with the assumptions. The reason for this is if I have to make any changes because of recommendations from other forists then it will be up and not down, most likely.
- I submitted the time of Sandy Casar just as reference.
When I used 73 kg for Wiggins I get 462 W. Those Ferrari's VAM numbers are very close.dienekes88 said:Dr. Ferrari used VAM to estimate W/kg and from that extrapolate power output. For Contador, his estimate was 417W (6.73 w/kg). A little lower, but still pretty close.
I used Ferrari's technique with 72.5kg as an estimate of bodyweight and used a regression model to figure out the power-to-weight/VAM relationship that Ferrari was using and arrived at a power output of 466W for Twiggo. Also pretty close.
Indeed. Six one way, half a dozen the other!Escarabajo said:When I used 73 kg for Wiggins I get 462 W. Those Ferrari's VAM numbers are very close.
actually, Huizenga was fastest in Manchester in 2008 Worlds. Check it nuff nuff.no_slipstream said:Well said _Frost, you got it spot on. A watt is a watt, whether it is uphill,
downhill or on the flat. The reason it is easier to pull big watts on the flat, than uphill is convective cooling which is proportional to velocity squared, just like air resistance. In other word you slowly cook when climbing.
Phinney, Thomas, Clancy, Bobridge, Huizenga, Sergent. etc. will not beat Wiggins in a 4000m pursuit, for those in the know Wiggo holds the British 10 mile record, he steps down to do a 4 kay ride.
As for the others they have to step up to do a 4kay pirsuit cos they slipstream in a group- it is called crit racing.
2 or 3 seconds may be a mile in track racing, after all 60 kph is 10m/s.
Wiggo has just found the right weight so he can overcome his own inertia, and it could be a matter of a half a kilo which gets you there . See what happens when you drink your watersupply when climbing, you go faster.
Wiggins 24 in Athensno_slipstream said:15 Bradley WIGGINS GBR 4:15.165 20 Aug 2004 Athens, GRE
Wiggins can only beat those he races against, the above mentioned have not
beaten him in a major race.
Tell me how this crowd is faster.
Sergent 4'16" NZ Nats
Bobridge 4'17" Poland Worlds
Phinney only 18 and pulling 4'15" in Denmark UCI Cup and then 4'15" at Worlds in Poland.
Thomas 22 and doing 4'17" in the GB Olympic prep training camp last June.
learn how to do maths before you start abusing others.
Besides timing equipment can vary and it has to be done at the same venue.
Afterall the fastest Aust. runner for 100m did a 9.93- yeh sure when 1
second was taken away !
You say there is no change that Phinney one day is on the Podium?blackcat said:Wiggins 24 in Athens
Sergent 20 4'16"
Phinney 18 4'15"
Bobridge 19 4'17"
Juizenga 25 4'16"
Clancy 25 4'17"
those guys will be making the podium of the Tour, and you will be defending them on the back of track endurance. Sure...
blackcat said:actually, Huizenga was fastest in Manchester in 2008 Worlds. Check it nuff nuff.
really convenient eh? So, now, he is contending for the Tour. As Boardman says "if it is too good to be true, it probably is". Well, this probably is, don't shoot the messenger.Mambo95 said:And Wiggins beat him by five seconds in the final. Check it nuff nuff.
Wiggins proably could have done faster times than he did in, but he was never really pushed from 2003. He eased up in most races as he also had to do the team pursuit and/or the madison
Wiggins: 6 Olympic Medals, three of them Golds, six world championshipsblackcat said:Sergio Escobar? Who? Sergio Escober? Who?
Yeah, a guy from Caisse d'Epargne who has done jack $hit on the road, and never won a thing. What about Bartko? A rider with a palmares similar to Wiggins on the track. Won gold in teams and individual pursuit in Sydney. Lose 8 kgs, bingo, he is a Tour contendor?
Come on, get your hand off it. If Wiggins, substitute for Escobar, you would be crying for the rooftops about a dirty Spaniard.
where were Hushovd, Cancellara, and Hincapie, plus Mcgee? None focused on the track.Mambo95 said:Wiggins: 6 Olympic Medals, three of them Golds, six world championships
Escobar: Two Olympics bronze medals, one world championship
Yeah. They're exactly the same
I could make a million a year robbing banks - but I don't. Money's not everything to some people.blackcat said:where were Hushovd, Cancellara, and Hincapie, plus Mcgee? None focused on the track.
The most glaring weakness in your argument, Wiggins just has made himself a one million euro a year rider.
He would have been on perhaps 150k euro, max.
So, why is Wiggins so stupid, to sacrifice 850k every year, for the last 5 years? And if he is good enough to ride the road, he is good enough, better than Mcgee you would say, to lose the weight, AND win Olympic medals in Athens and Beijing, whilst earning his one million euro on the road.
Ofcourse, all hogwash.
actually, have a look at all my posts.Mambo95 said:I could make a million a year robbing banks - but I don't. Money's not everything to some people.
Let's agree to differ.
You stick to your 'they're all doping' mantra. The same one reeled out by corrupt doctors and DS's to neo-pros. You stick to your entirely evidence free accusations to whoever takes you fancy that day.
I'll stick to my belief that some riders dope and some are clean. And my belief that there are some very talented clean riders who are successful.
Can you elaborate on the heavily asterisked epo x6?blackcat said:Just like Armstrong never tested positive. 'cept 99 corticos and heavily asterisked epo x6.
So a question of hematology. A rider is utilizing autologous transfusions. Are they transfusing to what they believe will be a hematocrit of 49.999%? Or are they transfusing a bit higher and then somehow hemodiluting before doping control?blackcat said:I do know, there are enough drugs that are never gonna show up on a MSGC assay, and that autologous transfusions, are undetectable, that, you can dope with impugnity. There will never be evidence, unless the law authorities bust a ring like Fuentes.
Retrospectively tested urine from the 1999 Tour De France showed six of Armstrong's samples positive for artificial EPO.tockit said:Can you elaborate on the heavily asterisked epo x6?
I remember the corticos in 99, but I'm not sure I remember what you're talking about with the other one.
The anti-doping consortium that Asho is director of is here...BroDeal said:Retrospectively tested urine from the 1999 Tour De France showed six of Armstrong's samples positive for artificial EPO.
There is some really good info about this here: http://velocitynation.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden
hematocrit as a measure, in my opinion, is redundant.CircleJerkCaptain said:So a question of hematology. A rider is utilizing autologous transfusions. Are they transfusing to what they believe will be a hematocrit of 49.999%? Or are they transfusing a bit higher and then somehow hemodiluting before doping control?
I'm very curious about the logistics of doping. It seems quite hectic.
OGrady was 93 too, but what was he at lactate threshold?Krebs cycle said:Haven't been through the whole thread but using the figures originally posted (Contador) @ 61kg produced an average power output of 435W equates to a VO2 consumption of around 85-90 ml/kg/min. Considering that it is all but impossible to maintain VO2max for that long at the end of a long stage, you would have to assume that a conservative % might be 95% which gives an actual VO2max of around 90-95ml/kg/min. Not impossible IMO given that i've personally witnessed a VO2max test on a tour de france rider which resulted in a score of 87ml/kg/min.
The anti-doping consortium that Asho is director of is here...
What an earth is this natural affinity for climbing? Can you please analyse and open it a bit? How does it differ/add from power/weight; watts/kg? If you do not have that natural affinity, then how do you improve it by doping? How does that climbing affinity doping differ from doping for TT?blackcat said:no, should not, check Tour des Pays du Savoie, 20 minutes back on each of the HC climbing stages. No natural affinity for climbing.
Phinney is a wunderkind, but he climbs like Hincapie did. Prior to the O2 vector drugs/techniques, the GT riders would show themselves very early, they could climb. If you could not climb, you could not win a GT._frost said:What an earth is this natural affinity for climbing? Can you please analyse and open it a bit? How does it differ/add from power/weight; watts/kg? If you do not have that natural affinity, then how do you improve it by doping? How does that climbing affinity doping differ from doping for TT?