Power Outputs Contador & Wiggins

[Escarabajo]

Power Output fo Wiggins

IMO...For a 20-22 minute climb, fully fresh, those numbers for Wiggins are achieveable especially if his weight really is down to 71kg as he reports. 71kg *6.2watts/kg = 440 watts 22 minute power at crank (SRM power) so 425-430 watts PT power. That is well within his FTP of 410 watts estimate from the prologue. Achieving this type of power output on stage 14...that's seriously impressive but I don't have cause for concern with Wiggins yet. Ventoux will tell a lot.

Good Comment.

I have him on 76 Kg. But if he is on 71 Kg then I have around 450 Watts for him.

The picture after Roubaix would suggest Wiggins has actually put on weight since April as he looks like he is literally starving. He did not look that thin in today’s stage.

As I said in another thread, I am wiling to believe as long as there are no track victories for at least a year.

I agree. But the TV images could be sending us the wrong message.

Really interesting discussions here. Particularly with the climbing rates! Contador’s performance really is off the charts.

Check out the video with Vaughters on Wiggins which mentions some power outputs:
http://vimeo.com/5449139
Also his track from the opening TT on Garmin Connect:
http://connect.garmin.com/player/7958896

Could his specialization on road (in particular climbing) over the last 6 months be attributable? After all this is really his first big "go" at a TdF.
He has won six Olympic medals and six(!) world championship titles in the pursuit, individual pursuit and Madison (with Mark Cavendish no less) which obviously is going to take a serious level of training on the track. This year he's done little track and stuck to the road.

Personally I would be pretty surprised if he's doping given the team he's with and the amount of work he's done with British Cycling on the past few years, particularly in the run up to the Olympics! Perhaps that's my personal bias of seeing a British rider really performing in the GC though (for the first time in 25 years)!

C.

This is nice Info. 490 W for 18 minutes. For that weight I have 462 W for 21:41". If what Vaughters is saying is truth then 462 W at this stage of the Tour is doable riding clean. Now under what conditions were the 490 W measured? We'll never know.

 

[Escarabajo]

altitude gain per hour is still the main indicator 2000 metres plus regardless of gradient means you could win. 1800 equals dom duties

I respect your opinion, but I don't agree with you.

The problem with the VAM measurement here is that you are extrapolating the Contador results in order to get the 1 hr rate. So it is not fair to compare climbs with completely different lengths and gradients. Another problem with this calculation is that athletes can have higher power outputs on shorter climbs than in longer ones. The "Time to Exhaustion" plays a big factor in the big climbs.

VAM don't take the drafting, wind speed, position in bike, length (It is all normalized to 1 hr time), weight difference, etc.

 

[slcbiker]

Pretty hard to get any really valid numbers other than in a lab or on a track. Otherwise, too many variables. For instance, it sounded like the stage today had tailwinds most of the way leading up to Verbier. Don't know if that also followed up the hill. Reading the pre-ride description on pezcyclingnews, it certainly doesn't sound like too hard a climb.
Both Contador and Wiggins were very impressive. Though Contador's history certainly indicated he was perhaps capable. Wiggins is more the surprise, and a pleasant one at that. I would not have guessed he'd do this well. Trying hard to believe he's not doping.

 

[Chris L]

This is nice Info. 490 W for 18 minutes. For that weight I have 462 W for 21:41". If what Vaughters is saying is truth then 462 W at this stage of the Tour is doable riding clean. Now under what conditions were the 490 W measured? We'll never know.

I believe Vaughters was talking about his recent attempt on the British 10 mile record which he did in 18 minutes dead. He's previously done 17:58 on the same course. Caused a fair bit of controversy after he used Zipp 1080s on his front wheel which is against the UK's time trialling body; all very amusing!
Check it out here:
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...fication-after-winning-kent-valley-rt-10.html

The course profile is here:
http://www.mapmyride.com/ride/united-kingdom/levens/289038121

Be interesting to see how this plugs in.

 

[no_slipstream]

Power watts

I agree with Escarabajo, I use swiss2hosting all the time.
The only thing it does not do is acceleration, it is for steady state power only.
And drafting and tailwinds are a big issue, and reduce power and also increase
your speed.
I go by m/min and 30 is very fast, and as far as I know Bjaarn Riis is the king, or well was ! What worries me is where locals log times on hillclimb site with
30m/min ascents or 8 watt/k.g. power/weight.

Is it possible for a crit racer to do this for even 10 minutes, I do not hink so and that some of the times are rubbish.

any comments.

 

[Ozzie2]

For the record, I think they are all dirty

i don't disagree

but its like WWE. are they ALL dirty, or is it just the standard level?

ie is the one the guy who is "dirty" the one_not_doing it complaining about those who do???

just a thoughts

 

[Izoard]

I posted this in one other thread ...

I get an uneasy feeling about Contador. He is widely called the best climber in the world, he is very quick in the TT (even the flat ones), he can accelerate like no one's business, he can recover with the best, he can win grand tours without peaking or even when on vacation. Hopefully I don't get too many nasty replies, as it is not like I "hate" the guy, he just gives me the same feeling I had when I saw Bjarne attack in '96, or Rasmusen, or Pantani/Heras in a TT, or Ricco from last year ...

OK, no more double posting

 

[stephens]

Contador weight: 61 kg
Wiggins Weight: 76 Kg
Sandy Casar: 63 Kg

Wiggins is much lighter now.

Head wind: zero (conservative approach)

Not as "conservative" as today's reality: tailwind.

 

[frameforum]

Very impressive math, but totally pointless and unfounded.

Hands up those were in the room with Wiggins, Contador, Armstrong and whoever when they stepped on their bathroom scales yesterday morning?

If weight is a major factor of calculating power to weight ratio (which I assume it is) and those calculations are based on third-party 'data' from a fansite, then all I can say is you all need to go ride your bike some more.

Is the racing really so uninteresting to some that they have to find some other means of entertaining themselves such as this? Here's hoping Wiggins doesn't go for a haircut during today's rest day; that'll really screw up the spreadsheet!

 

[blackcat]

yeah, but usually climbers have a natural disposition. And climbing is a little like timetrialling, insofar as, the numbers on the SRM in the tt bike, will be different to what you can put out on the road bike. The best tt'ers have closer numbers to their road output.

The best climbers will hit numbers like they can on the flat au bloc. Because technique is different.

Since when did Wiggins demonstrate technique and form in the mtns?

 

[Johnny Colnago]

lol @ Riis being the King of anything other than EPO response.
Mr Sixty Percent climbed quite well, that is true but he had a little help from his friends.

 

[rhubroma]

I have no idea if those numbers have any bearing on reallity. That said if Contador's power to weight issue was 7.3% (?), according to Mapei Training Center chief trainer, Aldo Sassi, used by Evans and Basso, anything above 6.8% is physologically impossible on a climb at the end of a stage like yesterday's, withought sophisticated blood doping.

 

[Frosty]

My opinion: the thing with Wiggins per his last Giro is that he can blow up (maybe it's his hematocrit naturally falling as a GT proceeds, and other guys' not).

I dont think he blew up in the Giro. From what i read he was taking things easy to keep himself fairly fresh for the Tour de France. Also he probably fancied his chances in the last TT and wasnt that high on GC anyway.

So far the stages have either been flat - shouldnt be too bad for a TTer, or they have been a mountain stage where the climbs havent been taken that hard, or they have have a climb at the end after a relatively flat stage (ok, yesterday had climbs but they were 2nd and 3rd cat climbs rather than 1st and HC ones). The next two stages are mountainous and with the TT (has to go hard) to come followed by Ventoux it will be interesting to see how he maintains his form.

 

[Frosty]

Have there been similar climbs in the past? What were the times up then? I think Verbier has been used in the swiss tour before but not the tour de france.

 

[Animal]

I posted this in one other thread ...

I get an uneasy feeling about Contador. He is widely called the best climber in the world, he is very quick in the TT (even the flat ones), he can accelerate like no one's business, he can recover with the best, he can win grand tours without peaking or even when on vacation. Hopefully I don't get too many nasty replies, as it is not like I "hate" the guy, he just gives me the same feeling I had when I saw Bjarne attack in '96, or Rasmusen, or Pantani/Heras in a TT, or Ricco from last year ...

OK, no more double posting

I get the same feeling too.

I don't want to. I've just been around too long for it not to nag at me.

 

[_frost]

Wiggins is saying 570-580w pursuit power for gold medal in Athens (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2006/jun/04/cycling.news). 490w for 18 min is very well in line with that.
Add to that in 7-8% climb each kg dropped is roughly 1% increase in performance.

I have no disillusion of Wiggins or any top rider or any professional athlete what so ever being clean but comparing him to Kohl or saying that he came out of nowhere is simply moronic.

 

[rhubroma]

i truly beleive wiggins performance is down to weight loss, actually bothering to train for the road rather than the track, and not doing much track riding this year...

contador.. i like to beleive in riders, im not one of the cynical ones, but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind, knowing his history, and watching the way he danced away from everyone, not just lance, but every single rider in the tour, for the SECOND time in the last week or so, the guy is doped to the eyeballs and i hope he gets caught, preferably before the end of the tour so we can see the true winner on the podium..

Another example of Anglo puritanism and a "cleaner than though" attitude. While every cycling journalist in Italy, France and Spain are waving red flags on this one. If it boils down to weight, then we'll be seeing Cancellera up their in two years. At least he's demonstrated some credibility on the road.

Oh but how silly can I be, it must be an anti-British thing. Well at least for once, the American's can't accuse everyone of anti-Americanism...

 

[Anonymous]

it not an anglo thing, i think perhaps the brits have followed bradleys career a litte more closely than the non brits who see this as a surprise...

us brits arent actually THAT surprised at his performances, i wasnt expecting him top 3, but i thought top ten or twenty was a serious option after his improvements in the giro, i even posted a few weeks before the tour that in the beaumont trophy although effectively an amateur event the way he time trialled away from the field, he looked fitter, leaner and in better form than i had ever seen him.. I think it just comes from better rider knowledge personally.. I actualy beleive that garmin are the cleanest team in the pelaton...

For the record i also think cancellara is clean, i just think hes a freak of nature.. If cancellara starts dancing up mountains then i will be suspicious, or i will be if he continues to tt the way he does being pretty much a power based rider. .

as for the other brits, having seen charlies performances in the mountains im pretty sure he is clean too.. But its not a brit thing, on a domestic level i love watching the two downings and christian house ride, but if they arent jacked up to the eyeballs im father christmas..

 

[_frost]

Another example of Anglo puritanism and a "cleaner than though" attitude. While every cycling journalist in Italy, France and Spain are waving red flags on this one. If it boils down to weight, then we'll be seeing Cancellera up their in two years.

If it (climbing) does not boil down to weight (or power/weight) what is it then? Can you enlighten this mystery?

 

[stephens]

...anything above 6.8% is physologically impossible on a climb at the end of a stage like yesterday's, withought sophisticated blood doping.

Sure, and since it is physologically [sic] impossible for man to run a mile in under 4min, it'll never happen, right? (that's what the 'best' scientists of the day were saying)

 

[Wheels Go Round and Round]

in the long history of the Tour de France, no cyclist has ever climbed a mountain as fast as Alberto Contador rode up to Verbier today.

His climbing rate was 1900 m/hour, breaking theold record held by Bjarne Riis of 1843 m/hour. You may decide for yourself if this is due to tactics/race situation, doping, following wind or physiological ability! Regardless, it's incredible climbing.






http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009/07/tour-2009-contador-takes-yellow.html

doping without a doubt
someone that small cannot time trial at the speeds he does either

 

[Kennf1]

someone that small cannot time trial at the speeds he does either

You mean like Hinault, Mottet, and Leipheimer?

 

[Wheels Go Round and Round]

You mean like Hinault, Mottet, and Leipheimer?

correct, great examples

 

[uphillstruggle]

If it boils down to weight, then we'll be seeing Cancellera up their in two years. At least he's demonstrated some credibility on the road.

I thought many people have said he could end up a GC rider if he shed weight. I just don't see why he would want to go from being the one of the best power riders around to being a top 10/5 rider myself.

It is suspicious to see brad up there at the moment but he has always been ardently anti doping (I know saying you don't dope doesn't make it true), he apparently went mad at his cofidis team mate (moreni I think) when he got caught in 2007.

Anyway I really think he will lose a fair bit of time in the next few days, don't see him making the podium although I hope he does.

There you go British blinkers concerning the dope coupled with some good old fashioned British pessimism.

 

[Escarabajo]

Since I have a program to integrate the changes from the race in case of some recommendations from other posters, I made some changes on Brad Wiggins and Contador's input numbers:

New Weight: 71 Kg
Wind: tail wind 5 mph (only applicable when he was on his own)
Drafting: 63% of the time. Remember that he is a big guy, that even if he tries to draft behind other riders the wind is still going to hit him, but for the sake of this calculation I am assuming 100% draft efficiency.
Time: 21':46"
Speed: 14.9 mph

Just as a final note, the Drag in the climbs is not as big of a factor as it is the inertia power (Weight and Gradient). Only it becomes considerable when you have headwind and you are riding most of the climb on your own.

Results:
Power: 438 W (6.17 W/kg)

For Contador I assumed the same tailwind but kept the same drafting time (30%), weight and other variables.

Results:
Power: 414 W (6.79 W/kg)