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Pre EPO/ Tranfussions "stand out" doped rides?

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May 18, 2009
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redtreviso said:
33 seconds...good...not superman
I dunno, a minute or so over Fignon over that short of a course. Beat a specialist aiming for that stage. Record speed, last day of a tour when he was crawling up Alpe a few days earlier like Stephen Hawking climbing up Yao Ming. :D
 
May 23, 2010
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ChrisE said:
I dunno, a minute or so over Fignon over that short of a course. Beat a specialist aiming for that stage. Record speed, last day of a tour when he was crawling up Alpe a few days earlier like Stephen Hawking climbing up Yao Ming. :D
Fignon didn't look good..was over confident..the winner had nothing to lose and was riding his specialty... it wasn't a minute or so.,.it was exactly 58 seconds
 
Jun 12, 2010
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redtreviso said:
Fignon didn't look good..was over confident..the winner had nothing to lose and was riding his specialty... it wasn't a minute or so.,.it was exactly 58 seconds
Fignon, suffering from a painfull saddle boil and made a wrong choice in a front disc wheel.
Lemond, tri bar bar advantage alone = 58 seconds +.
Superman theories not required.:rolleyes:
 
May 18, 2009
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redtreviso said:
Fignon didn't look good..was over confident..the winner had nothing to lose and was riding his specialty... it wasn't a minute or so.,.it was exactly 58 seconds
OK, you convinced me. Seeing the mistake I made with the "or so" instead of saying 58 seconds made me reevaluate my position in this discussion.

So agreed. It was a very typical and predictable performance by GL in that record setting TT in those particular circumstances. :rolleyes:
 
Mar 17, 2009
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ChrisE said:
OK, you convinced me. Seeing the mistake I made with the "or so" instead of saying 58 seconds made me reevaluate my position in this discussion.

So agreed. It was a very typical and predictable performance by GL in that record setting TT in those particular circumstances. :rolleyes:
Look at the actual circumstances of the 89 Tour.

In the prologue Lemond & Fignon were tied
In the 73km TTLemond took 53"
Fignon's Super U took 51" in the TTT
In every flat stage they were inseparable
In the TT ro Orcières Merlette Lemond took 47"
Lemond lost 12" in the Pyrenées
Lemond lost 1'55" in the Alps (1'19" at Alpe D'Huez is hardly crawling)
So Fignon & Lemond were close all through the Tour, evidenced by these gaps and the fact that the Maillot Jaune changed hands several times.
The place where Fignon was stronger than Lemond was team support. Fignon's Super U were built for the GT's, Lemond's ADR was made up od sprinters & classics guys. Look at the difference Fignon has two former Maillot Jaunes to help him, Lemond two Maillot Verts!
Fignon lost one man on stage 10, whereas Lemond had lost 3 by the same point. He lost a further one 2 days later.
All this before even looking at the last day.
Fignon rode discs front and rear, had no aero helmet, no tri-bars and had a saddle sore! Lemond had a more sensible spoked front plus the tri-bars. He was wearing an aero helmet but kept putting his head down thus negating its advantage. But what you have ignored or are unaware of is that there was a 5kmh tailwind and the course was downhill bar the Champs Elysées.
Finally look at the performance of the second placed rider Thierry Marie, a short-course TT specialist. Lemond beat him by 33" in the final TT and had beaten him by 10" in the prologue. That's entirely consistent with Lemond having a good ay and the advantage of tri-bars and Fignon having a "Jour Sans" plus no tri-bars.
 
Darryl Webster said:
Fignon, suffering from a painfull saddle boil and made a wrong choice in a front disc wheel.
Lemond, tri bar bar advantage alone = 58 seconds +.
Superman theories not required.:rolleyes:
I was wondering how long before someone would bring in LeMond. You would think LeMond had never ridden good TT before in his life.
 
May 18, 2009
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ultimobici said:
Look at the actual circumstances of the 89 Tour.
**snip mostly irrelevant, somewhat flawed, but interesting cool stuff**
.
I said upthread I was convinced by red's POV. Sheesh, let's move on to other pre-epo era performances with the same type of analysis to convince ourselves it was actually clean. ;)
 
Mar 17, 2009
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ChrisE said:
I said upthread I was convinced by red's POV. Sheesh, let's move on to other pre-epo era performances with the same type of analysis to convince ourselves it was actually clean. ;)
Why the patronising tone and the roll eyes then?
 
Jul 6, 2010
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Adding the classification of Versaille-Paris 1989 (I too was wondering how many posts it would be before this comes up...):

1. Greg LeMond en 26'57"
2. Marie à 33"
3. Fignon à 58"
4. Nijdam à 1'07"
5. Yates à 1'10"
6. Maechler
7. Wechselberger à 1'11"
8. Mottet à 1'16"
9. Beuker à 1'19"
10. Skibby à 1'22"

source

Really hardly a stand-out... :rolleyes:

Many riders weren't so motivated on that last day. I guess the 3 guys motivated were the 3 first. Thierry Marie (prologue specialist) was hoping a stage win. LeMond was, let's bet, slightly more motivated than Marie, and stronger by 33''... Many guys around 1' - 1'30'' behind LeMond.
Fignon just missed a bit his TT. Not a horrible performance at all though, considering what may have gone through his head when he was given the split time... On a good day, he probably would have been close to Marie's time.
 
ultimobici said:
Look at the actual circumstances of the 89 Tour.

In the prologue Lemond & Fignon were tied
In the 73km TTLemond took 53"
Fignon's Super U took 51" in the TTT
In every flat stage they were inseparable
In the TT ro Orcières Merlette Lemond took 47"
Lemond lost 12" in the Pyrenées
Lemond lost 1'55" in the Alps (1'19" at Alpe D'Huez is hardly crawling)
So Fignon & Lemond were close all through the Tour, evidenced by these gaps and the fact that the Maillot Jaune changed hands several times.
The place where Fignon was stronger than Lemond was team support. Fignon's Super U were built for the GT's, Lemond's ADR was made up od sprinters & classics guys. Look at the difference Fignon has two former Maillot Jaunes to help him, Lemond two Maillot Verts!
Fignon lost one man on stage 10, whereas Lemond had lost 3 by the same point. He lost a further one 2 days later.
All this before even looking at the last day.
Fignon rode discs front and rear, had no aero helmet, no tri-bars and had a saddle sore! Lemond had a more sensible spoked front plus the tri-bars. He was wearing an aero helmet but kept putting his head down thus negating its advantage. But what you have ignored or are unaware of is that there was a 5kmh tailwind and the course was downhill bar the Champs Elysées.
Finally look at the performance of the second placed rider Thierry Marie, a short-course TT specialist. Lemond beat him by 33" in the final TT and had beaten him by 10" in the prologue. That's entirely consistent with Lemond having a good ay and the advantage of tri-bars and Fignon having a "Jour Sans" plus no tri-bars.
Well, this is a very nice summary. I'll keep it for my records.
Thanks.
 
May 18, 2009
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Escarabajo said:
Well, this is a very nice summary. I'll keep it for my records.
Thanks.
Yes, you should.

File it in a folder on your desktop titled "Irrelevant and/or flawed explanations". If you would like me to rebut this thing for you to file under a folder called "Logical Reality" then just let me know. Thanks.
 
callac said:
Adding the classification of Versaille-Paris 1989 (I too was wondering how many posts it would be before this comes up...):

1. Greg LeMond en 26'57"
2. Marie à 33"
3. Fignon à 58"
4. Nijdam à 1'07"
5. Yates à 1'10"
6. Maechler
7. Wechselberger à 1'11"
8. Mottet à 1'16"
9. Beuker à 1'19"
10. Skibby à 1'22"

source

Really hardly a stand-out... :rolleyes:

Many riders weren't so motivated on that last day. I guess the 3 guys motivated were the 3 first. Thierry Marie (prologue specialist) was hoping a stage win. LeMond was, let's bet, slightly more motivated than Marie, and stronger by 33''... Many guys around 1' - 1'30'' behind LeMond.
Fignon just missed a bit his TT. Not a horrible performance at all though, considering what may have gone through his head when he was given the split time... On a good day, he probably would have been close to Marie's time.
Really, I think LeMond was most likely clean, but this *was* an outstanding performance. Those are big gaps for a short downhill TT with tailwind, no matter how you look at it.
 
May 18, 2009
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hrotha said:
Really, I think LeMond was most likely clean, but this *was* an outstanding performance. Those are big gaps for a short downhill TT with tailwind, no matter how you look at it.
No, no, no hrotha. Bad hrotha!

Get back in line!
 
hrotha said:
Really, I think LeMond was most likely clean, but this *was* an outstanding performance. Those are big gaps for a short downhill TT with tailwind, no matter how you look at it.
Well LeMond finished 33 seconds ahead of Marie who finished ahead of Fignon by 25 seconds so that was a huge gap as well and Marie didnt have a Tour at stake.
 
May 18, 2009
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pmcg76 said:
Well LeMond finished 33 seconds ahead of Marie who finished ahead of Fignon by 25 seconds so that was a huge gap as well and Marie didnt have a Tour at stake.
Nobody cared about doing well in this TT stage that finished on the Champs, except GL and Fignon? Not even the FRENCH TT specialist guy?
 
ChrisE said:
Nobody cared about doing well in this TT stage that finished on the Champs, except GL and Fignon? Not even the FRENCH TT specialist guy?

So what you are saying is LeMond finished ahead of Marie by 33 seconds because he doped but Marie finished 25 ahead of the next rider becasue he was super-motivated. Right.
 
pmcg76 said:
Well LeMond finished 33 seconds ahead of Marie who finished ahead of Fignon by 25 seconds so that was a huge gap as well and Marie didnt have a Tour at stake.
Yep. Outstanding performance, not unbelievable (in the bad sense of the word) performance. Good performance by Marie, too.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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ChrisE said:
Nobody cared about doing well in this TT stage that finished on the Champs, except GL and Fignon? Not even the FRENCH TT specialist guy?
....and he finished 33 seconds behind - without the aid of the TT bars.
 
May 18, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
....and he finished 33 seconds behind - without the aid of the TT bars.
And? That is a different subject, but if you want to extrapolate how much of an advantage those bars gave him in that TT vs the much longer earlier TT then I am game. I'm not saying they didn't give him an advantage (of course they did), but don't come at me with his performance wasn't eye-opening because others were so close and he used the bars.

I was replying to pmc who was implying that Marie didn't care about the stage because he didn't have the tour at stake. He was doing that in the spirit of "hey, he only beat somebody that didn't care by 33 secs". I was pointing out more than those 2 cared to win that stage for the reasons I stated, especially the French TT guy in a TT finishing on the Champs.
 
pmcg76 said:
Well the thread title is "outstanding doped performances" so.....
Yeah, but I get the feeling you guys are contending the "outstanding" bit when replying to ChrisE, rather than the "doped" bit. Since this thread is pre-EPO, virtually all performances will still be believable since dope didn't give you such a massive edge back then, so in that regard I don't see much of a difference between LeMond's performance and others that have been suggested in this thread. Although now that I think of it, the same kind of defense has been brought forward for Merckx and Delgado in this very thread, so I suppose I'm just arguing with myself at this point so I'm going to shut up about right now.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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ChrisE said:
Yes, you should.

File it in a folder on your desktop titled "Irrelevant and/or flawed explanations". If you would like me to rebut this thing for you to file under a folder called "Logical Reality" then just let me know. Thanks.
Ok then let's see your rebuttal then.
 

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