Primož Roglič

[King Boonen]

Re:

No sure. Among a handful of Clinic posters it's utter balls, I realize that.
Just saying that outside of the Clinic most objective observers seem to think it was a convincing piece of journalism.

No, it's utter balls. No one has shown an actual example of a frame with a motor in that produces the same heat pattern. It can't be consistent with something that has never been shown. At most it is slightly suggestive of the possibility motor doping, but the whole documentary is massively flawed as has been explained countless times so I'm not going to rehash that here.


This is rubbish too. The only place I've seen objective discussion of that documentary is in the clinic. Outside the clinic we've seen the same, rehashed arguments and none of the new evidence we were told was coming.

I've not seen anyone in the clinic saying motor doping can't or is definitely not happening in the WT peloton. I've seen many, many posters point out that the current evidence does not stand up to any kind of honest scrutiny.

 

[sniper]

So you still haven't seen to documentary but are calling it utter balls? Got it.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

So you still haven't seen to documentary but are calling it utter balls? Got it.

I have watched it several times.

 

[sniper]

Well then do a check on your previous post because it's rambling.

A system that has never been shown? 7 motors, KB, among which standard crank assist motors.

But sure, you're probably referring only to Roglic, which is fair enough as this is his thread.
Well then let me get this straight: you're not able to provide any kind of explanation for the heat pattern in his rear hub + left seat tube, but the explanation that it was a motor + battery you call it utter balls?

Right. That's some conspiracy by Stade 2.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Well then do a check on your previous post because it's rambling.

A system that has never been shown? 7 motors, KB, among which standard crank assist motors.

But sure, you're talking only about Roglic, which is fair enough as this is his thread.
Well then let me get this straight: you're not able to provide any kind of explanation for the heat pattern in his rear hub + left seat tube, but the explanation that it was a motor + battery you call it utter balls?

Right. That's some conspiracy by Stade 2.

No it isn't. The claim from the article you posted and highlighted:

"heat patterns within frames and wheels consistent with the use of motors in the bikes of at least seven professional riders."

This is utter junk. Nothing in that documentary from the bikes of professional riders was consistent with any motors that have actually been shown. As I said, it was ever so slightly suggestive, but the flaws in the methods used have been covered in great detail.

Explanations were provided ad nauseam in the motors thread, from several posters, at least one of which had actual, hands on experience with the type of cameras Stade 2 used, why the results were junk. Feel free to go and re-read it, I'm not going to repeat it here.

I've not claimed it's a conspiracy. It was sensationalist journalism based on tenuous evidence at best.

 

[sniper]

ok, so as i thought.
no explanation, but utter balls nonetheless.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

ok, so as i thought.
no explanation, but utter balls nonetheless.

All the explanation you need is in here, mine too:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=30462

I'm surprised you're not aware of it considering you were involved in the discussion.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

ok, so as i thought.
no explanation, but utter balls nonetheless.

All the explanation you need is in here, mine too:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=30462

I'm surprised you're not aware of it considering you were involved in the discussion.

Lol. Next time somebody asks me to explain something I'll just post a link to the front page of the CN forum.

More to the point, it seems those who think it's debunked can only keep referring to each other as evidence that indeed it has been debunked. That's a bit circular.

Also, apart from the fact that you can't provide even a semi-plausible explanation for the heatsignal in the rear hub, as I mentioned upthread there's also this nasty heatsignal in the left seattube which you conveniently ignore and have ignored in your previous postings on the topic. Makes the Stade 2 conspiracy seem even more elaborate.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

ok, so as i thought.
no explanation, but utter balls nonetheless.

All the explanation you need is in here, mine too:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=30462

I'm surprised you're not aware of it considering you were involved in the discussion.

Lol. Next time somebody asks me to explain something I'll just post a link to the front page of the CN forum.

More to the point, it seems those who think it's debunked can only keep referring to each other as evidence that indeed it has been debunked. That's a bit circular.

Also, apart from the fact that you can't provide even a semi-plausible explanation for the heatsignal in the rear hub, as I mentioned upthread there's also this nasty heatsignal in the left seattube which you conveniently ignore and have ignored in your previous postings on the topic. Makes the Stade 2 conspiracy seem even more elaborate.

Well actually it was discussed several times in that thread detailing why there's not even enough evidence to suggest it is actually a real heat signature due to the use of dynamic scaling. Even I can remember that bit.

And this isn't even what we're discussing here. to repeat: The article claims consistent with motors. The only image of an actual motor we have seen is the vivax seat tube type system and nothing on any pro bikes in that documentary is consistent with that.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
Well actually it was discussed several times in that thread detailing why there's not even enough evidence to suggest it is actually a real heat signature due to the use of dynamic scaling. Even I can remember that bit.

Just that the only guy we know for sure has professional experience with thermal cams says that that's utter balls. It's the guy consulted by Stade 2 whose profile you are free to check out on the LinkedIn.

But if you're not capable or willing to account for the heatsignal in the rear hub + left seat tube, then lets give it a rest and move on. It was probably a UFO.

 

[hrotha]

Why do you bother, KB? You know that, even if you repeated the whole argument again, sniper would just say that's fair and a good point, only to rehash the whole thing in a couple of weeks as if nothing had happened.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Why do you bother, KB? You know that, even if you repeated the whole argument again, sniper would just say that's fair and a good point, only to rehash the whole thing in a couple of weeks as if nothing had happened.

Sometimes I just get bored on a lunch hour and it's fun to point out the stupidity in some posts and discussions. Like how this one has gone from a Spectator article with an easily falsifiable claim to discussing that junk documentary again. Other times I get sucked in and know I shouldn't. I think I'll make a concerted effort not to now.

 

[sniper]

That Femke positive must have really rocked your world, hrotha. Not easy to digest I reckon.
Good to see that you found the courage again to 'post' on this topic.
(Well, it's more on the poster, but let's pretend it's on the topic, for old time's sake)

But yeah, fair point hrotha. No need to bother.
KB and I can agree to disagree on this.
KB thinks it's debunked and it's all utter balls, full stop.
I think it's not. I adduced a quote from a fresh article and heatsignal-in-left-seattube-argument to support my position.
KB then referred to old posts and provided a link to the motor thread to support his position.
Rehashing I think we call that. Which is fair enough. Let's leave it at that and agree to disagree.

 

[hrotha]

I have no problem whatsoever with the notion that motors are in use. I have a problem with your reasoning and the level of noise it produces, which renders The Clinic useless.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

Stade 2 report debunked? Not really.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/07/most-sportsmen-cheat-theyd-be-mad-not-to/

In January last year, a motor was found in the bike of the European cyclo-cross champion Femke Van den Driessche. Two months later, footage was captured using thermal cameras at two races in Italy that appeared, very convincingly it must be said, to show heat patterns within frames and wheels consistent with the use of motors in the bikes of at least seven professional riders.

Very good piece by the way loaded with common sense.

Well to start with that's utter balls.

This from the same person who expects Floyd Mayweather to lose to Conor MacGregor.

What does he expect Mayweather to lose to MacGregor at? Surely not boxing?

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Stade 2 report debunked? Not really.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/07/most-sportsmen-cheat-theyd-be-mad-not-to/

In January last year, a motor was found in the bike of the European cyclo-cross champion Femke Van den Driessche. Two months later, footage was captured using thermal cameras at two races in Italy that appeared, very convincingly it must be said, to show heat patterns within frames and wheels consistent with the use of motors in the bikes of at least seven professional riders.

Very good piece by the way loaded with common sense.

Well to start with that's utter balls.

This from the same person who expects Floyd Mayweather to lose to Conor MacGregor.

What does he expect Mayweather to lose to MacGregor at? Surely not boxing?

Yep. Although I was hoping someone would pick up on the date of publication.

 

[sniper]

utter balls
https://scontent-waw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19884278_1829156893766330_1219108250461784853_n.jpg?oh=854af6e5811afab69681787b4107fa4d&oe=59CE1659
(photo taken today at finish of GF Fausto Coppi)

 

[TMJ]

Personally, I found that a tough watch.

Climbing away from elite riders with mouth firmly shut, backside in saddle and no evidence of any effort whatsoever.

The three CG leaders, plus the KOM leader did not put any dent in his lead over at least the last 25k, maybe more.

Primoz is not the lightest mountain goat in the race for sure, in fact looked quite stocky on the bike, but still climbed away from the best.

I was slightly behind the actions time-wise and simply fast-forwarded him crossing the line, being interviewed and celebrating on the podium.

I couldn't take it.

 

[sniper]

Personally, I found that a tough watch.

Climbing away from elite riders with mouth firmly shut, backside in saddle and no evidence of any effort whatsoever.

The three CG leaders, plus the KOM leader did not put any dent in his lead over at least the last 25k, maybe more.

Primoz is not the lightest mountain goat in the race for sure, in fact looked quite stocky on the bike, but still climbed away from the best.

I was slightly behind the actions time-wise and simply fast-forwarded him crossing the line, being interviewed and celebrating on the podium.

I couldn't take it.

Three good points, and I agree with the sentiment.
The lack of effort is indeed striking. Has nothing to do with PEDs imo. As one e-bike brand strikingly promote themselves: "we turn pain into pleasure"

From skijumper whos never ridden a bike to world beating time triallist and now also a mountain goat. PEDs alone can't explain Roglic. Just like PEDs alone can't explain Froome.

 

[jilbiker]

Personally, I found that a tough watch.

Climbing away from elite riders with mouth firmly shut, backside in saddle and no evidence of any effort whatsoever.

The three CG leaders, plus the KOM leader did not put any dent in his lead over at least the last 25k, maybe more.

Primoz is not the lightest mountain goat in the race for sure, in fact looked quite stocky on the bike, but still climbed away from the best.

I was slightly behind the actions time-wise and simply fast-forwarded him crossing the line, being interviewed and celebrating on the podium.

I couldn't take it.

Three good points, and I agree with the sentiment.
The lack of effort is indeed striking. Has nothing to do with PEDs imo. As one e-bike brand strikingly promote themselves: "we turn pain into pleasure"

From skijumper whos never ridden a bike to world beating time triallist and now also a mountain goat. PEDs alone can't explain Roglic. Just like PEDs alone can't explain Froome.

As I watched the physique of this guy riding away from lots of folks who looked lighter than him, I found it baffling. And he was riding away with ease, it made no logical sense, there is no doubt that the Motor is at work. How are these guys able to get away with it?

 

[Supimilian]

As I watched the physique of this guy riding away from lots of folks who looked lighter than him, I found it baffling. And he was riding away with ease, it made no logical sense, there is no doubt that the Motor is at work. How are these guys able to get away with it?

66kg rider dropping the myth, the beast, the demigod by the name of Serge Pauwels and a spent up Contador on a mountain.
If Roglic was all motor he would surely have retired or snuck out of the back door by now. Anything else would be ridiculous. Some of you guys just see what you want to see.

 

[StryderHells]

Personally, I found that a tough watch.

Climbing away from elite riders with mouth firmly shut, backside in saddle and no evidence of any effort whatsoever.

The three CG leaders, plus the KOM leader did not put any dent in his lead over at least the last 25k, maybe more.

Primoz is not the lightest mountain goat in the race for sure, in fact looked quite stocky on the bike, but still climbed away from the best.

I was slightly behind the actions time-wise and simply fast-forwarded him crossing the line, being interviewed and celebrating on the podium.

I couldn't take it.

65 kg's isn't considered light to you?

 

[samhocking]

65kg is light for a Tour GC winner, but certainly light-enough for one rider to win on his day on a big mountain day who's not seen as any threat. End of the day, the human body takes 2-3 years to reach its maximum potential, so no reason athletes can't switch sports and reach the top level in 2-3 years.

 

[sniper]

...
65 kg's isn't considered light to you?

I must say he looks more solid than that (he's 1.77 tall, and quite muscular in the legs), but admittedly tv can be deceptive.

But if he's both talented and light, other things equal, we'd probably have expected him to excel as a climber first, and only then develop TT skills secondary to his climbing. With Roglic it's been the other way round.

Altogether this guy is highly un-credible if you ask me, and a career trajectory that is not explicable through PEDs alone. Luckily there's a very plausible hypothesis that explains his trajectory, as explored in the Stade 2 documentary (and in earlier pages of this thread and the motor thread).

What I do find interesting is the silence of his competitors.
Here's a guy with straightforward motor-accusations hanging over his head, yet not a word of distrust or discontent from his competitors (afiact).

 

[miguelindurain111]

...
65 kg's isn't considered light to you?

I must say he looks more solid than that (he's 1.77 tall, and quite muscular in the legs), but admittedly tv can be deceptive.

But if he's both talented and light, other things equal, we'd probably have expected him to excel as a climber first, and only then develop TT skills secondary to his climbing. With Roglic it's been the other way round.

Altogether this guy is highly un-credible if you ask me, and a career trajectory that is not explicable through PEDs alone. Luckily there's a very plausible hypothesis that explains his trajectory, as explored in the Stade 2 documentary (and in earlier pages of this thread and the motor thread).

What I do find interesting is the silence of his competitors.
Here's a guy with straightforward motor-accusations hanging over his head, yet not a word of distrust or discontent from his competitors (afiact).

As a complete opposite to Femke's case. The most plausible explanation is that only one of them is a moto fraud. And that the Stade documentary is complete crap as shown countless times in the Clinic.