Prophet Muhammad insulted by a film, so we claim the right to kill you?

[Semper Fidelis]

I think it is more sad that the film was made by Jewish bigots and designed to provoke just such a reaction but the group is given a free pass. You can bet if a bunch of neo-Nazis raised $5 million to make a film that got people killed then the Southern Poverty Law Center would be suing the ring leader.

You might want to check the facts on this claim. Seems like nobody knows who really made this piece of trash. From what I have read it might be some crazy whack job from So Cal.

 

[gregod]

But the Bible isn't an instruction book, it's a book filled with text written by many people over thousands of years. You're not supposed to read it literally.

My mind is free. If it wasn't I would be trying to convert you, I'm not. I'm just trying to show you that the world isn't black-and-white. The world can't be ordered into
Religion = bad and Atheism= Good

Just as it can't be ordered into
Christianity = good and Everything else = bad.

But you know what? Let's just agree to disagree.

To return to the original topic of "You insult my religion. I kill you!" (This must be read in the voice of Achmet the Dead Terroists!)
Of course making fun of someone's religion (or any kind of belief-system) does not give them the right to kill you.
As for the cartoon-case and the flag-burning. You know... I never understood the concept of burning flags to show how much you loated another country. A flag is simply pieces of fabric sewn together, it did not fall from the sky.

lots of good stuff to talk about in this post.

according to the pope and many of your co-religionists it is the instruction book and it is to be read literally. the fact that you choose not to is just one more example of why it should be rejected altogether.

i didn't think you were trying to convert anybody. and yes religion is bad. any dogma that forces one to choose the tenets of its religion over reality is bad. furthermore, i reject the term atheism. knowing that there aren't magical beings in the sky is not an -ism any more than know that there isn't a santa claus is a-santaclaus-ism. therefore, your premise is invalid. religion is bad because you have to believe things that are not true. however, it does not follow that all religious people are bad.

as far as agreeing to disagree: what does this mean? you are wrong. i agree about that. however, you are free to believe any nonsense you wish. i will not hinder you in any way.

i very much agree with you about the flag burning thing. americans in particular impose an idol-like reverence for their flag and proudly declare, "i would die for the stars and stripes." as you said,

A flag is simply pieces of fabric sewn together, it did not fall from the sky.

and that further proves my point. nothing has fallen from the sky. except meteors. and columbia.

 

[gregod]

You might want to check the facts on this claim. Seems like nobody knows who really made this piece of trash. From what I have read it might be some crazy whack job from So Cal.

yeah, i've heard several claims so far. one even said it was some egyptian coptic christians that made it.

 

[broken chain]

This is why I am an Atheist.
Ridiculous!

 

[rhubroma]

What is this "consciousness" that you are talking about? I challenge your notion that the birth and evolution of religions cannot be studied scientifically.

Also, those interpretative reflections of science are not science, are they?

By consciousness I'm talking about a critical analysis of the ancient and later sources, of the material aspects of civilization in the arts and architecture, of the social, political and religious histories of them, linguistic concerns, etc.: in short cultivating an interpretive awareness about the institutions of man.

The liberal arts do not formulate hypothesis regarding such social phenomenon, which can be proved or disproved in all cases the way scientific theory in the realm of physics does. However they are a valuable curriculum to develop, as I said, consciousness.

Now of course scientific thought since the Age of Reason has conditioned historical methodologies, making them sounder and more convincing in recounting what actually took place and why, though the discipline of historiography is not a science the way mathematics and physics are. Nor is that its purpose. Then you have things like moral philosophy, aesthetics, art and architectural theory and criticism, which, together with historiography can paint a pretty beautiful image of what happened to civilizations in the past. Though there will always be a margin of interpretive leeway, which pure science does not condone. Ultimately we are dealing with modes of interpretation and identifying paradigms.

In any case, even without a purely scientific approach the humanities can show phenomenons like religion to be what they really are and always have been: namely, human inventions.

 

[patricknd]

You might want to check the facts on this claim. Seems like nobody knows who really made this piece of trash. From what I have read it might be some crazy whack job from So Cal.

his name isn't scott, is it?

 

[Anonymous]

his name isn't scott, is it?

I'm not Jewish, a bigot or a film maker.

27,000,000 people in SoCal, I'm but just one.

 

[Parrulo]

This is what happens when you have a civilisation that is still anchored in the middle ages.

In any case, it's also just another result of accepting faith as legitimate.

I yearn for the day when all religions have disappeared off the face of the earth.

Quoted for truth.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

his name isn't scott, is it?

?????? I doubt it but according to these folks in this thread (I meant the General Politics thread) ....Scott is off his rocker...???

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I'm not Jewish, a bigot or a film maker.

27,000,000 people in SoCal, I'm but just one.

Are you sure about the bold part?

 

[HL2037]

A flag is simply pieces of fabric sewn together, it did not fall from the sky.

Om Dannebrog jeg ved: Det faldt fra himlen ned. In Estonia in the year 1219 as a sign from God!

 

[Amsterhammer]

Any of you actually bothered to look at the trailer on youtube? It is absolute, utter sh!te. It's not even a B or C flick, more like an F. It should be a complete embarrassment to all concerned.

 

[Magnus]

1) science (done properly) is absolutely objective. the humanities layer subjectivity on top of science. therefore, science is critical thinking. step 1) "what happens if i do A?" step 2) "i think B will happen if i do A". step 3) design and implement a test. step 4) check results-do results agree with hypothesis? if yes, try to replicate. if no, revise hypothesis and go to step 3. step 5) did you replicate results? if yes, result. if no, revise hypothesis and go to step 3.

And who decides if science is done properly?
Is it you who decide what is absolutely objective?

 

[Magnus]

I despise faith (that is, believing a claim to be true without sufficient evidence attesting to its veracity) in all its manifestations. Be it religion, astrology, witchcraft, political ideologies, etc.

Isn't determining what sufficient evidence is a matter of faith?

 

[rhubroma]

You might want to check the facts on this claim. Seems like nobody knows who really made this piece of trash. From what I have read it , but donmight be some crazy whack job from So Cal.

No, it was a Jewish bigot. (I had the name in the daily, today, but don't have it now.) In any case America will bomb Iran within the year.

 

[red_flanders]

and the bible is the instruction book of your religion. if the instruction book doesn't make sense, then the religion doesn't make sense. dump the religion and the belief in non-existent space daddy, join reality and be kind to people because it is the right thing to do not because you think space daddy wants it.

free your mind and happiness will follow.

The bible isn't an instruction book, though unquestionably many regard it as such. It's a record of man's experience with God and Jesus, and a record of inspired thoughts and actions. It was written in a certain time and in a certain context.

The bible isn't God. It's a set of books written by people about God. Not one book, many books. By many people.

It is sacred to Christians, but it is not the answer, just a record of experience and questions, devoted to God.

People who take it literally are, in my view, profoundly mistaken about what it is and how/why it was written. That those people are in the majority of Christians is a very modern occurrence. Certainly relatively few modern, American Christians share an understanding of this viewpoint. More's the pity for God and humanity.

 

[gregod]

And who decides if science is done properly?
Is it you who decide what is absolutely objective?

the scientific method does; a set of principles that are constantly refined through experimentation and observation in order to achieve reproducible results. reproducibility is by definition, objective.

is your education so lacking that you do not even understand this basic principle?

Isn't determining what sufficient evidence is a matter of faith?

no, it isn't. one collects evidence through experimentation and when these results are reproducible it is accepted as proof.

 

[gregod]

The bible isn't an instruction book, though unquestionably many regard it as such. It's a record of man's experience with God and Jesus, and a record of inspired thoughts and actions. It was written in a certain time and in a certain context.

The bible isn't God. It's a set of books written by people about God. Not one book, many books. By many people.

It is sacred to Christians, but it is not the answer, just a record of experience and questions, devoted to God.

People who take it literally are, in my view, profoundly mistaken about what it is and how/why it was written. That those people are in the majority of Christians is a very modern occurrence. Certainly relatively few modern, American Christians share an understanding of this viewpoint. More's the pity for God and humanity.

what are the ten commandments? jesus' parables? all of that nonsense in leviticus?

in your view they are mistaken to take it literally. in their view you are mistaken. you both can't be right, but you both can be wrong.

 

[Amsterhammer]

In any case America will bomb Iran within the year.

This is not the topic for this, but I disagreed with this prognosis (by someone, not necessarily you) a year ago, and I still disagree now.

I reserve the right to reevaluate my position should Romney (heaven forbid) win the election.

 

[Amsterhammer]

Fwiw - part of this sounds plausible, part of it seems literally, incredible.

The attack on the US Embassies in Libya and Egypt, along with the death of the US Ambassador to Libya Christopher Stevens, is not a surprise to some elements in our society. In fact, it is welcome in certain circles.

The claimed film, “Innocence of Muslims,” which has not yet been released and only has a 12 minute trailer available, fails to tell a story or educate. They seem to have shot the trailer with what seems to be $50 flip cameras and it lacks any production value. The lack of production value is the first tip-off that this was not produced for $5 million, unless of course they bought the worlds most expensive pizza for their cast and crew for every single meal. The story behind it starts to fall apart here.

But who is behind this movie?

The spokesperson for the movie is Steve Klein, the CEO of Courageous Christians United. For those unfamiliar with this organization, it operates websites and hosts videos dedicated to attacking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Islam, Judaism, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Catholics, atheists, Bahá’í, The Unification Church, and even the United Pentecostal Church. The group is dedicated to restoring what, in Steve Klein’s own words is the “Christian Heritage of America.” When asked about the violence which resulted in the deaths in Libya, Mr. Klein said that he did not feel guilty and blamed the violence on the religion of Islam. However, when asked if he expected violence, he did admit that the violent response was as he expected.

Mr. Klein has proclaimed himself in the past an expert on terror cells, although has not had any position of authority since 1977 when he retired from the Marines. He has claimed that the Kosovo conflict was begun by Al Qaeda, a claim whose origin came from the trial of Slobodan Milošević in 2002, taking the word of the commander-in-chief of the Serbian army who ordered multiple civilian massacres which left thousands dead and countless more homeless in the policy of “Identify Cleansing.” He has also claimed that “Islam is attacking everything not Islam and it is not just using violence.” But, when you check his website, all you find is his organization attacking everything not in his own narrow view of Christianity. In addition, the group is also one of the more vocal opponents of reproductive rights and have called for a “Death to Abortion” multiple times in the past.


A person who claimed to be movie director Sam Bacile was interviewed shortly after the violence erupted in Egypt and Libya. The majority of his comments boiled down to one comment, which he repeated multiple times throughout the interview, “Islam is a cancer, period.” Charming words. He also put the full blame for the attack on the embassy security, claiming no responsibility for his own portrayal of the prophet Mohammad as a pedophile and philanderer.

Steve Klein originally called the film’s director an Israeli, then later an Israeli-American. Mr. Klein also kept shifting the director’s age, occupation, and location. Some are even starting to doubt that there even was a man whom Mr. Klein called ‘Sam Bacile’ and that Mr. Klein made the movie himself. The lack of production quality demonstrates a lack of knowledge for filmmaking techniques, and with the most realistic portrayal in the trailer being a US military officer. Mr. Klein’s own military record would enable him to make that part work far better than the rest of the trailer. Eventually Mr. Klein admitted that the name is a phony, but would not divulge any further.

Once you start studying who Steve Klein is, quickly one discovers that he is found in the records of the Southern Poverty Law Center as a leader for the Church at Kaweah, part of the larger Patriot and Sovereign Citizen movements. For those of you unfamiliar with these movements, their basic concept is that the United States is an occupied nation, controlled by a corporation called The United States of America. They believe in the founding of the US as a Christian nation, to become the beacon to Christianity for the world. Sovereign Citizens have turned to violence in their attempts to undermine the government, such as the Oklahoma City bombing or the assassination attempt on Justice Ralph Beistline, but more often they engage in what the FBI terms Paper Terrorism, the use of fake legal filings to force their opposition to give in to their will. Members of the group have even formed a shadow government and are attempting to run for public office to undermine the nation.

For this group, the death of Ambassador Stevens would be welcome news. The viewpoint, that Islam is a menace, fit only for eradication and its members either converted by the gun or killed is held widely among these groups. As Steve Klein has already been found participating in anti-immigrant action along the Mexican border, assisting the self-proclaimed Minutemen, more violence inciting rhetoric would be expected.

That Mr. Klein attempted to label the film as created by an Israeli tells one right there that this film was never about information, nor to tell a story. Its whole purpose is to incite violence against the government they view as illegitimate, namely, the United States of America. They have engaged in stochastic terrorism, the use of mass media to induce a terror event, this time getting it to coincide with the anniversary of 9/11. They just had to put the right message out there, and to get the right person, in this case Koran burning Florida pastor Terry Jones, to proclaim it. Then insert an Arabic language translation of the film (claiming innocence of it the whole time), add in religious extremists in Libya and Egypt, and let the pot simmer. The power of modern mass media should never be under estimated, and to these domestic terrorists, it is but another tool in their arsenal for their goal, of the destruction of the United States of America.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/09/12/innocence-of-muslims/

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Is this film a comedy? Anyone know? It sounds like dark humor to me.

As to the reaction, zealots and hypocrites will be zealots and hypocrites. No film will change that.

 

[JeffreyPerry]

so who makes the decision on whether someone is a 'bad guy' that you need to disable? you personally? or a commanding officer? I'm sure that always works out fine, and you arrogantly think that every American should thank you?
I served my country in the Navy, so I know first hand how stupid some of the decisions and decision makers can be.

CobbleStoner,
Come on...do I really need to explain to you the difference between good and evil?
No, I do not expect everyone in this country to say thanks. I said "your welcome" to the guy from Minnesota that has the freedoms to write whatever he may like or practice whatever religion he likes. He does these things, as do all Americans, because of the sacrifices our military men and woman have given.
Lastly, THANK YOU, for your service in the Navy. However, just because your experience with the decision makers in the Navy were not "up to your standards" or "in line" with your ideals, don't assume all commands are the same. I can assure you that my commanders are some of the most professional individuals I have ever met, and will continue to uphold the laws of this nation and its citizens, regardless if they get a thank you or not.
Jeff

 

[BroDeal]

No, it was a Jewish bigot. (I had the name in the daily, today, but don't have it now.) In any case America will bomb Iran within the year.

It is hard to tell the Jewish bigots and the Christian bigots apart. The Neocon movements is a stew of these asshats bound together by their hatred of muslims, and arabs in particular. The conservatives cannot hate on the blacks anymore. Communist paranoia is hopelessly out of date. As much as they try to cling to it, gay bashing is going out of style. So they have simply moved on to the next group.

 

[rhubroma]

This is not the topic for this, but I disagreed with this prognosis (by someone, not necessarily you) a year ago, and I still disagree now.

I reserve the right to reevaluate my position should Romney (heaven forbid) win the election.

Yea, well I just hazarded that in a moment of megalomania.

Heaven forbid, to use an expression of faith, that that should happen. I'd say the odds, though, right now as things stand, are 50/50.

In any case, I read an article not too long ago by the progressive Israeli intellectual and author, David Grossman, about how the very conservative Jewish national leadership under Netanyahu firmly believes in the "divine" foundation of Israel, that it is thus within the Jewish state's moral prerogative to castigate its enemies as if by some divinely invested duty and that, ultimately, while the US is a temporary superpower and will therefore see its rise accompanied by an inevitable fall (like the Roman Empire), the nation of Israel is an eternal foundation of the Godhead. Hence Israel, endowed with its unique and special status, may act alone without the official placet of US political and military leadership.

Grossman naturally abhors such a theological and messianic mindset among the right wing party leadership of his country (which basically was the same theological conception of power that was shared by Bush and the neocons) and has called for some damned sense to permeate its ghastly way of thinking. In the end Grossman makes a plea to his fellow countrymen, not among the actual extremist and hard line policy makers of the Israeli government, to hold popular manifestations to bring them to task and cause them to reflect upon the potential drastic consequences should Israel make a preemptive strike against Iran.

While this isn't the topic of discussion, I felt that in the broader sense it has relevance to the actual one about Western relations with the Muslim world and is another example of why religion poisons everything. I mentioned before how a humanistic education can be useful in demystifying everything, well anbody that has studied classical antiquity would know that the Jewish state, which had already been brought within the Roman Empire from the I century BCE within the province of Palestine, ceased to exist in 135 CE at the end of the Second Jewish War. A rebellion led by the zealot Simon bar Kochba (who from the US perspective today in the position of the Romans would be labeled a terrorist, and not a freedom fighter) in 132, caused Emperor Hadrian to send his best general from Britain to squash the revolt. What ensued was three years of devastating war. One speaks of a probable 600,000 deaths between the two sides. In 135 the last of the Jewish rebels were put down, including the recalcitrant leader Simon bar Kochba, and order was once again restored throughout the empire. Hadrian then ordered the Jews to abandon Jerusalem and indeed the whole of Palestine, while the emperor commanded that Jerusalem be renamed Helios Capitolinus after the sun god and that a temple dedicated to the chief Roman god Jupiter should be erected where the second Temple of Solomon once stood, which had all but been destroyed during the sack of Jerusalem by the Roman army previously during Vespasian's reign. This under the generalship of his son and successor Titus at the conclusion of the First Jewish War in 70 CE. Back in Rome the by now thoroughly exasperated population took the treasures from the Temple of Solomon including the golden Arc of the Covenant, which had been placed in Vespasian’s Temple of Peace near the Roman Forum, and threw them into the Tiber. The treasures of the Jerusalem temple were placed in the Roman sanctuary as war spoils after the triumphal procession in 72 to celebrate Rome's victory two years before according to the Jewish chronicler Josephus, as portrayed in the famous Menorah Procession in the forum Arch of Titus.

Thus in 135 CE concluded the history of the Jewish state in antiquity. Subsequently, after the Western Roman Empire had succumbed to the barbarians, Byzantium held power over Palestine, though but briefly since the first Arab conquests of the VII century witnessed the near east and north Africa fall into the hands of the Muslim conquerors. Palestine, despite a number of Christian crusades during the Middle Ages to reclaim it form the Infidels, remained an Arab land until the British proctorate and then, in 1948, when the nation of Israel was recognized by the UN under heavy US pressure. In none of this history, of course, does divinity play any role.

 

[RedheadDane]

While I'm not at all into the recent development with that movie I wouldn't be too surprised if some of the people defending this movie would go RARRRGGG!!! THEY CANNOT DO THAT! IT'S OFFENDING MY RELIGION!!!! " if someone made fun of Jesus...

As for the Crazy Cartoon Case... I guess what happened back then was really to do with the fact that around here not much is holy, and even if it is still doesn't mean you can't make fun of it.