Proposal to JV --

[D-Queued]

the only one who got smacked down by JV was Tondo.

anyway if he had any doubts over a rider he could always ask the clinic

Good point. Did JV ever openly state his well-formed conclusion Tondo was a doper prior to the blog?

What is he advertising, with his expert, connect-the-dots, champion of anti-doping, opinion?

Has he sacrificed others (forum members and Tondo) to raise himself up?

Dave.

 

[Skandar Akbar]

Skandar, I challenge you to (for once) participate and have an opinion of your own on an issue. My words here do not count as a "cycling issue", even though JV has tried to make mine (and others) into one.

If JV needs to avoid forums and posters "who have no idea what they're talking about", then that's his choice. He could choose to shed some light, but as soon as someone actually asks a specific, pointed question, suddenly he's turned back into the DS with a billion things to do, far too important to be bothered with this "crap".

Yet he had the time to come on here in the first place?

He's a drama queen. Instead of just blowing us off, he had to make a swan-song on his exit (if he truly was making one). That's classic narcissism. And when I smell narcissism, I know he (or anyone) is being disingenuous.

Like I said before, don't play the "Jesus sitting around a tree telling parables" card if the parable is designed solely to influence perceptions about yourself. Don't include yourself as a character IN the parable.

What are you talking about I don't have an opinion? I have stated clearly my opinion on this subject.

I see what you are saying. I think it stems from our perception of JV. I think he is doing what he can, and you think he should do more specifically for blood lust of other riders falling. I would be more inclined to agree with you if it was just a few bad apples, but I don't care to see the sport crippled by a mass ****storm. I think you want a soap opera and JV won't give you one, so you throw your tantrum. You probably think he is condoning ped use by not blabbing all. I don't.

You also said upthread you liked JV, but you could have fooled me. You are different than me; if I felt like you do in this quoted post I wouldn't claim to 'like' the subject. So, why don't you Just come clean and cut the bs, instead of feigned exasperation under the guise of armchair psychanalysis?

I hope that is clear enough for you to understand my opinion.

 

[BotanyBay]

What are you talking about I don't have an opinion? I have stated clearly my opinion on this subject.

I see what you are saying. I think it stems from our perception of JV. I think he is doing what he can, and you think he should do more specifically for blood lust of other riders falling. I would be more inclined to agree with you if it was just a few bad apples, but I don't care to see the sport crippled by a mass ****storm. I think you want a soap opera and JV won't give you one, so you throw your tantrum. You probably think he is condoning ped use by not blabbing all. I don't.

You also said upthread you liked JV, but you could have fooled me. You are different than me; if I felt like you do in this quoted post I wouldn't claim to 'like' the subject. So, why don't you Just come clean and cut the bs, instead of feigned exasperation under the guise of armchair psychanalysis?

I hope that is clear enough for you to understand my opinion.

What I meant about your not having opinions. You only joined-in on this one at post #54, and your content wasn't about JV, it was about ME. You lay in ambush and await the opinions of others on the subject-du-jour, and then you proceed to latch-on to THOSE opinions. And I'm not the only one who notices your modus operandi.

I have long liked JV. But lately, I guess I've been falling out of "like" with him. I WANT to like him again, but he keeps repeating the same folly over and over again. That blog post could have been a lesson for all, but he did one key thing that blew it for me. He played the "JV as victim" card to help generate sympathy. It worked on some others, but not on me.

I don't think he is condoning PED use by not blabbing, but I feel that he is no clean racing "authority figure" or spokesperson until he answers some questions about the past. And it remains that simple. You can't truly move forward until you've adequately acknowledged and dealt with the past.

 

[NashbarShorts]

Like I said before, don't play the "Jesus sitting around a tree telling parables" card...

BBay, clearly you never read the JV (Jesus Veritas) parables through to the end.
For example, at the end of "Miracle of the 5 Loaves" (where JV fed the masses) quite a few ppl started asking "this is nice, but what's for dessert?"
At that point, JV bailed, saying he was "way too busy for this crap".

 

[BotanyBay]

BBay, clearly you never read the JV (Jesus Veritas) parables through to the end.
For example, at the end of "Miracle of the 5 Loaves" (where JV fed the masses) quite a few ppl started asking "this is nice, but what's for dessert?"
At that point, JV bailed, saying he was "way too busy for this crap".

Except the loaves were never distributed. While some were asking about dessert, plenty of people were saying "Wait, you never even gave out the bread". I think the bread was given in the form of IOUs.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

How do you say "No comment" in Aramaic?

 

[BotanyBay]

How do you say "No comment" in Aramaic?

Dunno man!

 

[Skandar Akbar]

What I meant about your not having opinions. You only joined-in on this one at post #54, and your content wasn't about JV, it was about ME. You lay in ambush and await the opinions of others on the subject-du-jour, and then you proceed to latch-on to THOSE opinions. And I'm not the only one who notices your modus operandi.

I have long liked JV. But lately, I guess I've been falling out of "like" with him. I WANT to like him again, but he keeps repeating the same folly over and over again. That blog post could have been a lesson for all, but he did one key thing that blew it for me. He played the "JV as victim" card to help generate sympathy. It worked on some others, but not on me.

I don't think he is condoning PED use by not blabbing, but I feel that he is no clean racing "authority figure" or spokesperson until he answers some questions about the past. And it remains that simple. You can't truly move forward until you've adequately acknowledged and dealt with the past.

The subject of the OP was imploring JV to spill his guts, and that is the bandwagon you are on. The subject of the thread is not mental analysis of JV, so if you were expecting me to jump in at post 54 and psychoanalize JV then you need to go start another thread. I gave my opinion about why he can't do what you and the OP want, and why I think you are unreasonable.

Pertaining to his blog if that is where you want to go, he was pointing out where he was wrong and noted that should give people like you something to think about. I don't see that as whining, and I do think it is a fair thing to toss out there. I do believe it is fair criticism the fact that he tried to woo AC vs the blog subject, and the fact he has to operate in a sport that just about anybody can be tied to ped use makes this whole blog seem a little strange. He would've been better served imo without the blog. I would council him to shut up as we discussed earlier.

 

[Hugh Januss]

The subject of the OP was imploring JV to spill his guts, and that is the bandwagon you are on. The subject of the thread is not mental analysis of JV, so if you were expecting me to jump in at post 54 and psychoanalize JV then you need to go start another thread. I gave my opinion about why he can't do what you and the OP want, and why I think you are unreasonable.

Pertaining to his blog if that is where you want to go, he was pointing out where he was wrong and noted that should give people like you something to think about. I don't see that as whining, and I do think it is a fair thing to toss out there. I do believe it is fair criticism the fact that he tried to woo AC vs the blog subject, and the fact he has to operate in a sport that just about anybody can be tied to ped use makes this whole blog seem a little strange. He would've been better served imo without the blog. I would council him to shut up as we discussed earlier.

That seems reasonable, but I agree with most of what BB has been saying as well. I agree with both of you. Is that even possible given the way you two have been going at each other?

 

[Skandar Akbar]

That seems reasonable, but I agree with most of what BB has been saying as well. I agree with both of you. Is that even possible given the way you two have been going at each other?

*** edited by mod ***

 

[MacRoadie]

BBay, clearly you never read the JV (Jesus Veritas) parables through to the end.
For example, at the end of "Miracle of the 5 Loaves" (where JV fed the masses) quite a few ppl started asking "this is nice, but what's for dessert?"
At that point, JV bailed, saying he was "way too busy for this crap".

All I got was some fish, and it wasn't even the good Mediterranean stuff, it was the local Sea of Galilee junk...

 

[BotanyBay]

JV's admission regarding Tondo was very admirable. When we ASSume we make an *** of U and ME. I get it. I can even relate it to actions of my own (where I've misjudged people).

But I don't need Mr Vaughters to set the ball for me by laying-down a "boo-hoo" foundation of how he's misunderstood. That smells of manipulation.

 

[jraama]

For me, JV not answering the tough questions is less important than JV not explaining why he won't answer the tough questions. He seems to be content to skirt around the edges of the questions which just leaves people wondering why he won't answer them in a direct manner. If he stated a definative reason as to why he cannot answer a particular question, then I would be cool with that.
People may disagree with his reason for not answering, but at least there would be some clarity as to his line of thinking (provided his reason isn't "Because I don't want to").

 

[Skandar Akbar]

JV's admission regarding Tondo was very admirable. When we ASSume we make an *** of U and ME. I get it. I can even relate it to actions of my own (where I've misjudged people).

But I don't need Mr Vaughters to set the ball for me by laying-down a "boo-hoo" foundation of how he's misunderstood. That smells of manipulation.

Of course he was trying to manipulate you with the blog post, or else why write it? He could've handled this privately with Tondo. Now it turns into a convuluted thread with crap being hurled in all directions, and even I defend him on one hand while questioning him on the other about his apparent inconsistancies about which riders he will pursue due to 'rumors'. I bet his tolerance for ped rumors lessens the better the subject can climb or tt.

 

[Polish]

For me, JV not answering the tough questions is less important than JV not explaining why he won't answer the tough questions. He seems to be content to skirt around the edges of the questions which just leaves people wondering why he won't answer them in a direct manner. If he stated a definative reason as to why he cannot answer a particular question, then I would be cool with that.
People may disagree with his reason for not answering, but at least there would be some clarity as to his line of thinking (provided his reason isn't "Because I don't want to").

For me that would not be good enough....

I want to know why he has not given a definative reason for not answering those who are asking for a definative reason why he won't answer directly.

I think that might make things clearer

 

[joe_papp]

Vaughters' concerns are that he wants it both ways, and he can't.

He should either be transparent or just stop talking about the situation, because nothing he says helps. It's just more vagueness and pseudo-intellectual ramblings that wind up being misunderstood and over-analyzed.

He really is getting tiresome.

+1 Vaughters' concerns are that he wants it both ways, and he can't.

 

[Digger]

Maybe he needs to accept that in order to do the right things, he may not be able to continue to be friends with certain people. Maybe that's his biggest weakness. He wants to be liked so much and to be all things to all people. But to trod the path in which we would like him to go down, then he is going to make enemies and p*** people off for the greater good. You can't help but think back to Lemond's advice for Floyd in 2006, that your real friends are not your cycling friends - maybe Jonathon needs to take heed of that. His heart seems to be in the right place, but he needs to have that moral courage to go one step further and accept the possible negativity that will come from certain quarters, but the beauty of this, is that so many people in the cycling community will respect him and admire him more.

 

[BotanyBay]

Of course he was trying to manipulate you with the blog post, or else why write it? He could've handled this privately with Tondo. Now it turns into a convuluted thread with crap being hurled in all directions, and even I defend him on one hand while questioning him on the other about his apparent inconsistancies about which riders he will pursue due to 'rumors'. I bet his tolerance for ped rumors lessens the better the subject can climb or tt.

JV wants (or needs) from us:
Trust

What I want (or need) from him:
Nothing

I'd like to trust him, but I can't give that to him until he takes certain actions of his own (on his own). I've learned a lesson from my past: I can't control anyone's actions but my own. I won't start any new threads trying to prompt him to do anything. He knows what the standard criticisms are, and he knows what he needs to do to change perceptions. And he seems to care a great deal about perceptions.

In Tondo's case, JV never realized he was wrong until he saw the proof in the pudding. Perhaps he's implying that we're in for a future revelation about him? I'd welcome that. As I said, I'm (quietly) cheering for him. I want it to work out positively. I honestly do.

I wish I could remember who posted it, but it had to do with "Birds of a feather, flocking together" It was spot-on. If JV expects me to cut him some slack after he made a bid for Alberto Contador, I'm sorry, but that's "beyond my help"

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Originally Posted by Colm.Murphy View Post
No, I think this is wrong. And I don't feel anyone would "scream" about anything.

If JV had simply relayed his own error in judging Tondo, I think it would have been well received and he would have done himself a service by being open and clear in expressing what he feels about the situation. I applaud him for that portion of the story.

But he wrote it in a way that ties this "judgment" back to message forums, as if it would be a parable for us to also learn from and it is a platform for him to express how "hurt" he'd been by posters here. This is where he fails.

- people here are hardened critics
- people here are not known to have trust built by words but actions
- people here ask serious and deliberated questions (usually) that are fair and to the point.

That this forum does not accept JV's glossy statements on their face means he has to either step up his effort to address concerns brought up here, as they are exemplary of true cycling fanatics, OR he has to avoid this place altogether. Nothing he says short of everything will suffice and it is simply a poor decision to undertake engaging with this group if what he offers falls short of this. Not many here are going to take half-answers, half-truths, selective versions and hit-and-run partial answers. That there are OTHER reasons (legal proceedings, investigations, etc) ongoing that prohibit him from addressing things in a full and complete format, he is best advised to simply NOT POST.

People think he is thoughtful and smart, but what I see is someone who is petty and panders to those who follow with blind-faith. He gets points for his details on Tondo though those are quickly deducted by his lame comments about being hurt and what people in message forums do and say

I think Colm has almost perfectly expressed my own thoughts in this post, and in a more targeted and more succinct manner than I probably could have.

I think everyone should slow down for a minute, and reread this post.

I actually can't even start to wonder why JV would try to post and rebut in The Clinic. He's either that insecure, which would be a little sad; or those in Pro Cycling actually value what a bunch of cranky nut-jobs say in a (mostly) annonymous forum, which would be a little scary.

JV just can't seem to let well enough alone, and the hole his 'pedantry' is digging just keeps getting bigger. Sheesh...

Maybe he needs to accept that in order to do the right things, he may not be able to continue to be friends with certain people. Maybe that's his biggest weakness. He wants to be liked so much and to be all things to all people. But to trod the path in which we would like him to go down, then he is going to make enemies and p*** people off for the greater good. You can't help but think back to Lemond's advice for Floyd in 2006, that your real friends are not your cycling friends - maybe Jonathon needs to take heed of that. His heart seems to be in the right place, but he needs to have that moral courage to go one step further and accept the possible negativity that will come from certain quarters, but the beauty of this, is that so many people in the cycling community will respect him and admire him more.

Just cramming a few posts together to try to get us back on the plot. The p*ssing contests tend to get a bit old...

Thanks for trolling!

 

[Boeing]

Really?

I just want to sponsor him for the TV show What Not To Wear!

 

[blackcat]

most instructive was the t-shirt he is wearing on CN front page now, some archival footage.

"Rock and Roll".

JV is about as Rock and Roll as geeks at Cal Tech. But he definitely channels Mike Ball and puts the Rock Racing into cycling.

 

[Martin318is]

JV is about as Rock and Roll as geeks at Cal Tech. But he definitely channels Mike Ball and puts the Rock Racing into cycling.

Come on mate - that is just a pathetic piece of trolling. If you can't back that up with some facts then I will delete it.

 

[mastersracer]

most instructive was the t-shirt he is wearing on CN front page now, some archival footage.

"Rock and Roll".

JV is about as Rock and Roll as geeks at Cal Tech. But he definitely channels Mike Ball and puts the Rock Racing into cycling.

as a scientist at Caltech I resent the comparison; many of us are much cooler than JV...

 

[BroDeal]

as a scientist at Caltech I resent the comparison; many of us are much cooler than JV...

You'll have to show us your ascot collection (or lack thereof) to prove it.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

You'll have to show us your ascot collection (or lack thereof) to prove it.

Wouldn't Caltech be a bit more casual-chic? Bummed clothes, but a sweet ride?

Hey! Maybe a bit more like Freddy from Scooby-Doo? Hangs out with some stoners and a couple of hot chicks (that's right, a couple - not everyone likes the Daphne type), drives around in a wicked van (The Mystery Machine), has a hidden source of endless financial resources, always is coming up with hair-brained plans to 'catch the evil doers', and EVEN WEARS AN ASCOT.

Holy Sh*t! I may have found 'Freddy' personified! Admitedly, you may have to put JV on a weight-gain program (based on his history, it may not be too hard to convince him to jack it up), but apart from that it could be the match that's been nagging at me...

Oh, Freddy...