Proposal to JV --

[BotanyBay]

I see what you are saying but you are misrepresenting what I wrote. I say he comes in here and says things, and says things in the public domain, within the confines of his position in the sport and perhaps legally. You say he should come in here and bare all and I say he may be giving all he can. Still it is more than nothing which even then ****es you off. Again he cannot come out and start accusing and exposing as you would like. I'm sorry. I am not 'raving' about anything I just call what I see.

There are going to be some questions he can answer, and some that he can't. And he can say that even. But we also know that there are many questions that involve him, and need to be sorted out. Enough of this "greater good" crap. To answer The Shirelles: Yes, I'll still love you tomorrow.

I've seen several people assert that he must be under some sort of federal gag order. Perhaps so, but that doesn't seem to have put a lid on Floyd (and we know for a fact that Floyd has been assisting the feds).

Enough winks. Enough nods.

 

[BotanyBay]

Agree with this....seems like a real 'blip' in the flow of JV's normal path. I do think that some here are demanding with a bit of righteous indignation, and may need to step back and not take everything so personally. Open discussion and differing viewpoints yes, but personal potshots and taunting not necessary to make a valid argument.

JV's human, flawed, but still appreciate some comments coming from him.

If the man came in and actually participated, I would totally agree with you. If he hung around for more than one post, I'd treat him with the utmost respect. But you don't win hearts and minds with "helicopter message board posting".

 

[mewmewmew13]

BB, he does do a bit of drive-by posting, but he's so far been here more than once lately, he's seemingly shown he has a human side and also some conscience, so maybe some more patience and he will keep posting...maybe just on his own schedule and not necessarily by demand.
cheers, mew

 

[blackcat]

In the name of transparency can JV please post the alleged policy that he claims Matt White breached?

 

[Mambo95]

Why would Vaughters want to come on here and tell the whole truth, thereby exposing him and his team to risk, just to appease a handful of zealots who will anyway call him a liar when the real truth doesn't fully tally with their perceived 'truth'?

 

[barn yard]

FFS give it a rest. Just because JV made the mistake of posting on here occasionally, doesn't mean he's now your confidant.
This post reaches a whole new level of nauseating indignation.

i would agree, at this point in time the best thing to do it leave JV alone

the feds will reveal all eventually, just be patient

 

[Pelican]

Connecting the Dots

I find myself often venting in these forums, usually my frustrations with the UCI; sometimes with other key stakeholders in the sport who I consider aren't doing the right thing by the sport. I've got to say, JV's article 'Connecting the Dots' is a thoughtful and moving piece.

My opinion of JV (which I garner from the public realm as I've never met him) was of someone who was maybe a bit holier than thou since he hung up his bike and became a spokesman for riding clean; plus I didn't like the way he had his team chase down the Hincapie in the Tour to deny him yellow - that was just petty (I'd like to hear response to this btw).

Any how, Chapeau to him for coming clean, getting off his soapbox and admitting his prejudices. I agree that the media, but especially fans, jump far to fast to conclusions and its almost guilty until proven innocent for riders for whom there is even a sniff of controversy.

The whole UCI/WADA strict liability code is flawed (not that I know what a better solution is) - its just not possible for anyone to 100% monitor everything that goes into their body - and with the super sensitive testing able to pick up the tiniest amount of a banned substance, it just makes it a lottery for riders. There will be more and more innocent riders banned for inadvertently being found positive.

So, good on you JV - you've gone up in my opinion (for what its worth). And keep the honest articles, its gives the fans a great insight.

 

[NashbarShorts]

Why would Vaughters want to come on here and tell the whole truth...?

Yeah, especially when its easier to pop on here, declare himself the 'massacred martyr', and then pop out again?

Like BBay said, we oughta give him props for letting us know he's such a busy guy and doesn't have time for this BS

 

[NashbarShorts]

In the name of transparency can JV please post the alleged policy that he claims Matt White breached?

OK, in lieu of answering that... -- would you accepts a pair of argyle socks? Still in the original packaging.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

“Unfair” “unjust” “unfounded” all seem to be at the tip of my thoughts every day. And “poor me” slowly leaks its way into my being. I was being picked on by gossip bullies! These evil purveyors of internet untruths are clearly not sentient beings, but indeed sub human, downright demonic rumor spreaders. I, instead, see myself separate as a knight armed with ethical objectivity and logical thought, who was being tarnished by such misguided vigil-antism. Clearly.

C'mon JV- tell us what you really think?

Maybe something he hasn't considered is why do fans play 'join the dots'?
Because they have no faith in the system - the administrators, the rules, the Passport...this in turn will fall on the teams and the riders.

It is out of frustration that we need to dig out the truth and try and piece together the real story.


BTW - Did anyone take up JV's offer here to call him or email him- and if so did he reply?

 

[Willy_Voet]

I hope JV quits the sport and opens a men's clothing store. The sport is no better for having him around.

Garmin-Cervelo would be much better off (and more transparent in my opinion) in the hands of Manolo Saiz or Johan Bruyneel.

 

[Skandar Akbar]

There are going to be some questions he can answer, and some that he can't. And he can say that even. But we also know that there are many questions that involve him, and need to be sorted out. Enough of this "greater good" crap. To answer The Shirelles: Yes, I'll still love you tomorrow.

I've seen several people assert that he must be under some sort of federal gag order. Perhaps so, but that doesn't seem to have put a lid on Floyd (and we know for a fact that Floyd has been assisting the feds).

Enough winks. Enough nods.

You continue to have reading problem. I say 'perhaps' legal issues. My main point is he is still in the sport. Landis is not. Big difference. And how do you know what he can and can't answer, and what he has and hasn't answered because of that? You don't thus my point to you earlier about you criticizing the info he provide without having all the info. He doesn't 'need to sort out' anything with you or you like minded posters.

We do agree he should shut up and we agree on the same reason for that: people like you. Ahhh common ground.

 

[D-Queued]

“Unfair” “unjust” “unfounded” all seem to be at the tip of my thoughts every day. And “poor me” slowly leaks its way into my being. I was being picked on by gossip bullies! These evil purveyors of internet untruths are clearly not sentient beings, but indeed sub human, downright demonic rumor spreaders. I, instead, see myself separate as a knight armed with ethical objectivity and logical thought, who was being tarnished by such misguided vigil-antism. Clearly.

C'mon JV- tell us what you really think?

Maybe something he hasn't considered is why do fans play 'join the dots'?
Because they have no faith in the system - the administrators, the rules, the Passport...this in turn will fall on the teams and the riders.

It is out of frustration that we need to dig out the truth and try and piece together the real story.


BTW - Did anyone take up JV's offer here to call him or email him- and if so did he reply?

Yes, JV did respond to my email enquiry during the buckwheat era. I was impressed at the time.

A bit less impressed this time. Though, JV clearly (sic) appears more pleased with his writing than I do with mine. Clearly. (sic)

As I read the blog, I kept thinking why doesn't he just come out and call it a 'witch hunt'? Or, would that mean it was clear which side he was on?

See, us foolish posters post our foolish thoughts for all the other foolish members to foolishly follow or not. We say something, and it is open season.

Anyone trying to connect the dots of truth (really big dots, with lots and lots of corroborating truth) with any cyclist has experienced plenty of road rash from their PR hacks.

It is kind of a chicken thing to avoid the interaction, but complain about it from the cheap seats.

As noted, the average low post-count member here connected the dots on Contadope - couldn't a smart insider do at least as well? I am sure JB's eyeball test was off the Richter scale (pleasantly in his case, since he knew what he was after).

Dave.

 

[BroDeal]

Okay, which one of you guys is the evil purveyor of internet untruths and which one is the demonic rumor spreader? Fess up.

Does anyone want to cop to being sub-human?

 

[Willy_Voet]

To be honest, I hadn't read all of his post/article/blog/whatever.

The whines of 'deception' and 'fraud' made me take a look. A few thoughts:

1. Folks here don't get sarcasm. Clearly.
2. You missed a critical section:

"...Before I rant on in self pity of how I’ve been unfairly judged at times or other athletes have been unfairly judged, perhaps I should consider the objectivity of my own judgments."

3. You all are a whiny bunch of c***s.

 

[dsut4392]

What a disappointing thread. From the title I was expecting to see a picture of Nashbar on bended knee holding out a big shiny ring for JV...so much for romance.

 

[D-Queued]

To be honest, I hadn't read all of his post/article/blog/whatever.

The whines of 'deception' and 'fraud' made me take a look. A few thoughts:

1. Folks here don't get sarcasm. Clearly.
2. You missed a critical section:

"...Before I rant on in self pity of how I’ve been unfairly judged at times or other athletes have been unfairly judged, perhaps I should consider the objectivity of my own judgments."

3. You all are a whiny bunch of c***s.

And, you are suggesting this was some sort of mea culpa?

Not.

He might be saying that on occasion he wallows in the muck and mire with us. But, he is not saying that (any) insights here have merit. Quite the opposite. His biblical (Matt 7:2-5) closing quote removes any doubt:

Judge not, lest ye be judged - with the measure you use, it will be measured to you

As noted, every post here is scrutinized by an army of members and a smaller set of moderators. This is a pretty informed and tough crowd.

And, we are still looking at the long line of connected dots and questioning aloud why Xavier was judged a doper by such keen intellect and Contador was not.

A plausible explanation is called for.

Dave.

 

[Granville57]

What a disappointing thread. From the title I was expecting to see a picture of Nashbar on bended knee holding out a big shiny ring for JV...so much for romance.

 

[NashbarShorts]

What a disappointing thread. From the title I was expecting to see a picture of Nashbar on bended knee holding out a big shiny ring for JV...so much for romance.

Not yet! -- this week was home visits to meet the families. We'll see how it goes at the final rose ceremony...

I will say JV is sooo amazing and we reeeally have like, a connection.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

No, I think this is wrong. And I don't feel anyone would "scream" about anything.

If JV had simply relayed his own error in judging Tondo, I think it would have been well received and he would have done himself a service by being open and clear in expressing what he feels about the situation. I applaud him for that portion of the story.

But he wrote it in a way that ties this "judgment" back to message forums, as if it would be a parable for us to also learn from and it is a platform for him to express how "hurt" he'd been by posters here. This is where he fails.

- people here are hardened critics
- people here are not known to have trust built by words but actions
- people here ask serious and deliberated questions (usually) that are fair and to the point.

That this forum does not accept JV's glossy statements on their face means he has to either step up his effort to address concerns brought up here, as they are exemplary of true cycling fanatics, OR he has to avoid this place altogether. Nothing he says short of everything will suffice and it is simply a poor decision to undertake engaging with this group if what he offers falls short of this. Not many here are going to take half-answers, half-truths, selective versions and hit-and-run partial answers. That there are OTHER reasons (legal proceedings, investigations, etc) ongoing that prohibit him from addressing things in a full and complete format, he is best advised to simply NOT POST.

People think he is thoughtful and smart, but what I see is someone who is petty and panders to those who follow with blind-faith. He gets points for his details on Tondo though those are quickly deducted by his lame comments about being hurt and what people in message forums do and say.

I think Colm has almost perfectly expressed my own thoughts in this post, and in a more targeted and more succinct manner than I probably could have.

I think everyone should slow down for a minute, and reread this post.

I actually can't even start to wonder why JV would try to post and rebut in The Clinic. He's either that insecure, which would be a little sad; or those in Pro Cycling actually value what a bunch of cranky nut-jobs say in a (mostly) annonymous forum, which would be a little scary.

JV just can't seem to let well enough alone, and the hole his 'pedantry' is digging just keeps getting bigger. Sheesh...

 

[delbified]

smacked down by JV! who knew he read internet cycling forums?

 

[Benotti69]

smacked down by JV! who knew he read internet cycling forums?

the only one who got smacked down was Tondo by JV.

anyway if he had any doubts over a rider he could always ask the clinic

 

[Benotti69]

smacked down by JV! who knew he read internet cycling forums?

the only one who got smacked down by JV was Tondo.

anyway if he had any doubts over a rider he could always ask the clinic

 

[Winterfold]

That knight in shining armour guff - I cant believe intelligent Europeans were out sarc'd and irony'd by an American!

Maybe JV is Wonderlance?

 

[BotanyBay]

You continue to have reading problem. I say 'perhaps' legal issues. My main point is he is still in the sport. Landis is not. Big difference. And how do you know what he can and can't answer, and what he has and hasn't answered because of that? You don't thus my point to you earlier about you criticizing the info he provide without having all the info. He doesn't 'need to sort out' anything with you or you like minded posters.

We do agree he should shut up and we agree on the same reason for that: people like you. Ahhh common ground.

Skandar, I challenge you to (for once) participate and have an opinion of your own on an issue. My words here do not count as a "cycling issue", even though JV has tried to make mine (and others) into one.

If JV needs to avoid forums and posters "who have no idea what they're talking about", then that's his choice. He could choose to shed some light, but as soon as someone actually asks a specific, pointed question, suddenly he's turned back into the DS with a billion things to do, far too important to be bothered with this "crap".

Yet he had the time to come on here in the first place? Curious.

He's being "dramatic". Instead of just blowing us off, he had to make a swan-song on his exit (if he truly was making one). That's classic narcissism. And when I smell narcissism, I know he (or anyone) is being disingenuous.

Like I said before, don't play the "Jesus sitting around a tree telling parables" card if the parable is designed solely to influence perceptions about yourself. Don't include yourself as a character IN the parable. I think the blog post would have been quite admirable if he'd had the humility to not mention his disdain for message board critics and stick to his own penance.